POTUS Donald Trump

[Mike Sixel]

SCOTUS giving more and more rights to corporations might be the worst thing this court does. 

[Badsmerf]

SCOTUS giving more and more rights to corporations might be the worst thing this court does.

This was part of my hesitation with Kavanaugh. His propensity to side consistently against individuals and for corporations and executive power.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Thanks for being so thoughtful; but first, I have to say there's a false equivalency (that may well prove true over time, but certainly not now) in terms of dealing blame for the strife. Antifa? Give me a break. That's not actually a movement that has support among the left.  Sure we are all anti-fascist, but there are no political candidates supporting that movement.  Unlike, the right, which tacitly and openly seems to support some awful white supremacist, among other right wing awfulness. 

 

There is a divide, and it has grown through tribalism, and really, the clever and effective right wing propaganda machine.  The left just isn't as "sophisticated" or as motivated (no profit in it) to make such propaganda, though, of course they do, just not in the mobilized, in-sync effort of the right.  

 

Dividing up the country is completely insane.  And would dissolve in to war over resources inevitably.  Let's not play that out (i.e. the West running out of water/the South running out of minable of resources).  

 

We are at a unique point in history where the populace has access to more information then they have been educated to deal with.  This is a failing of our society as it was anticipated.  But lest not forget that the right is always the enemy of critical thinking and it is that *inevitability* that will provide our solace.  (In other words a bunch of dumb people have access to the internet (information) when they didn't before).  Each subsequent generation will learn to be cynical of social media news, and professional media, to the point that they will reject it and hopefully learn for themselves (which I think is an inevitability).  

 

And in our time people are prone to the narrative that they are victims and their fellow Americans are the perpetrators (minorities/liberals); but that narrative will lose steam, as the tax cuts don't make really help out most people, and really, there aren't and new jobs.  What growth there is in the GDP reflects the wealthy gaining more and more, not wages which actually impact real people who vote. 

 

I mean it's a bit cool to imagine the country dividing that the coasts would form their own countries with the midwest and the south another one or several.  It's neat to think about. But unlike the USSR the states (save Texas and a few others) have had no independence prior to the formation of the USA; there is no cultural ethnicity with each state could rally its independence.   

 

There may come a time that we must take arms to defend what we believe is right, but I believe that will be a world-wide phenomenon.  Maybe a necessary one, given the uber-wealthy's unwillingness to cede any power at all.   For my part, we've been living in a "let them have cake" scenario and been okay with it, as along as we get ours (as Americans), even at the expense of the people of the world generally.

 

Has there ever been a time when people weren't prone to feeling victims?  The GOP has been working this strategy for over 30 years. They aren't about to change it. I'm still looking for a good answer of how to undo the fact that every single voice of authority people hear in the conservative south says the same things, even the church of a god of peace and love and truth.....

[D. Hocking]

Think they are all chuckling with Donald - telling him "good one" when he used his official twitter feed to gloat and call a woman "horse face".

 

Sadly, the fact that this painting is actually hanging in the White House and the President of the United States is calling one woman "Horse Face" and another woman "Pocahontas" ignoring all of the requests by Native American tribes not to use that name in that fashion, and it is not some  Onion article .

 

Notice how he has come out much stronger against these women than the Saudis for their murder of an American resident (who he makes sure that you know is not an American citizen every time he can).

 

I am pretty sure Teddy would have hated Trump, as would have most people in that painting.

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Has there ever been a time when people weren't prone to feeling victims?  The GOP has been working this strategy for over 30 years. They aren't about to change it. I'm still looking for a good answer of how to undo the fact that every single voice of authority people hear in the conservative south says the same things, even the church of a god of peace and love and truth.....

 

"Woe is us" knows no political affiliation.  There are lots of potential Dem voters in the south as several candidates have shown.  You know how you get people to change?

 

Start making them lose elections.

[Mike Sixel]

 

"Woe is us" knows no political affiliation.  There are lots of potential Dem voters in the south as several candidates have shown.  You know how you get people to change?

 

Start making them lose elections.

 

That's our plan for getting people that live in the South to change their attitude toward immigrants, and minorities, and gays and, and, and? Beat them in elections?

[TheLeviathan]

 

That's our plan for getting people that live in the South to change their attitude toward immigrants, and minorities, and gays and, and, and? Beat them in elections?

 

Yes, the best way to advance progress is to win elections, put forward policy, and pull society along.

 

You're asking why you can't teach an old dog new tricks.  Have you not interacted with other humans?  Have you not experienced how hard it is to change one mind, much less millions?  You can't, not quickly or effectively or with any one strategy.  Accept that and move on to strategies that can actually work. 

 

The South didn't move past slavery, Jim Crow, or anything else but by pushing a progressing society down their throat.  Why would you expect the answer to be anything else?  

[Mike Sixel]

 

Yes, the best way to advance progress is to win elections, put forward policy, and pull society along.

 

You're asking why you can't teach an old dog new tricks.  Have you not interacted with other humans?  Have you not experienced how hard it is to change one mind, much less millions?  You can't, not quickly or effectively or with any one strategy.  Accept that and move on to strategies that can actually work. 

 

The South didn't move past slavery, Jim Crow, or anything else but by pushing a progressing society down their throat.  Why would you expect the answer to be anything else?  

 

Much of the South hasn't moved past that still, hundreds or dozens of years later. And we expect that to change? That doesn't seem realistic at this point.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't expect them to change.  I don't care if they do.  We can't hold up society waiting for them.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Think they are all chuckling with Donald - telling him "good one" when he used his official twitter feed to gloat and call a woman "horse face".

 

Sadly, the fact that this painting is actually hanging in the White House and the President of the United States is calling one woman "Horse Face" and another woman "Pocahontas" ignoring all of the requests by Native American tribes not to use that name in that fashion, and it is not some  Onion article .

 

Notice how he has come out much stronger against these women than the Saudis for their murder of an American resident (who he makes sure that you know is not an American citizen every time he can).

 

I am pretty sure Teddy would have hated Trump, as would have most people in that painting.

 

 

Interestingly, you posted the Democrat painting (which I hadn't seen), it's the Republican one you were referring to, right?

[D. Hocking]

 

Interestingly, you posted the Democrat painting (which I hadn't seen), it's the Republican one you were referring to, right?

 

Yep - did it really quick - must have copied the wrong URL from the google images choices.

 

The Democratic version is really kind of obnoxious as well.   A few of the personalities would have definitely clashed and Wilson and Jackson would not have wanted to be at the same table as Obama.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't expect them to change. I don't care if they do. We can't hold up society waiting for them.

How does it move forward, if thirty percent won't? That's a large, large, percent.

[TheLeviathan]

 

How does it move forward, if thirty percent won't? That's a large, large, percent.

 

Didn't you just admit that they mostly haven't moved forward for a long time now?  Yet society most certainly has.  

 

So....I guess I don't see why you find those two hard to reconcile?  There has always been a segment of the population that's a bunch of insufferable a-holes.  I wish there was a Disney movie solution, but I'm also a realist.

 

MLK's quote about the arc of justice comes to mind.  We just gotta keep bending it, whether they come along or not.  Wasting time trying to change their minds seems like a poor use of time and effort.

[PseudoSABR]

Trump: "I have a natural instinct for science"

[snepp]

 

Trump: "I have a natural instinct for science fiction"

 

ftfy

[D. Hocking]

I am glad with all that is going on that he has time to focus on what is important.

 

@realDonaldTrump
Twitter has removed many people from my account and, more importantly, they have seemingly done something that makes it much harder to join - they have stifled growth to a point where it is obvious to all. A few weeks ago it was a Rocket Ship, now it is a Blimp! Total Bias?

 

 

I wonder if someone will point out to him that Twitter was probably removing bot accounts.

 

Nice that after his initial statement, his only comments on the bomb threats have been to criticize the media.

 

I think I have said this before, but if a psych student used him as a case study for narcissism (and a few other disorders),  their professor or adviser would threaten to kick them out of the program for making things up.

 

Editing to add he just tweeted this gem of true leadership:

 

Republicans are doing so well in early voting, and at the polls, and now this “Bomb” stuff happens and the momentum greatly slows - news not talking politics. Very unfortunate, what is going on. Republicans, go out and vote!

 

 

[PseudoSABR]

Van of the suspect of the pipe bombs.  I can't make any of the images out, but others claim is plastered with MAGA bling.  (And good job on the part of the FBI, Postal Inspector, and local police by finding this guy quickly).

 

[D. Hocking]

Here is a close up of the van -- someone on twitter posted it is what Steve Bannon would look like if he was a Transfomer.

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

Here is a close up of the van -- someone on twitter posted it is what Steve Bannon would look like if he was a Transfomer.

 

I saw that twitter-joke too. 

 

One would think this would quiet those false-flag arguments, but right wingers will use the ostentatious vehicle to suggest he's a liberal mole, obviously. 

[LaBombo]

 

I saw that twitter-joke too. 

 

One would think this would quiet those false-flag arguments, but right wingers will use the ostentatious vehicle to suggest he's a liberal mole, obviously. 

 

He's a nut job who gravitated to politics, just like mentally ill Bernie Bro campaign worker and "progressive" James Hodgkinson, who shot Steve Scalise along with other Republicans and two DC police.

 

Hogdkinson left a social media trail a mile wide through Facebook groups like "Terminate the Republican party" and "Donald Trump is not my president", had a Republican hit list on his person at the time of the shooting, and was screaming about health care during the commission of an attempted mass murder, and yet the media insisted for days that there was "no apparent political motive".

 

Crazy people do crazy, contemptible things for crazy "reasons", and politics has always been one of them. Trump's rhetoric was overheated and irresponsible before this act of terrorism, and will probably continue to be afterward, unfortunately. But he will still be a dire symptom in my book, rather than the disease itself.

[PseudoSABR]

 

He's a nut job who gravitated to politics, just like mentally ill Bernie Bro campaign worker and "progressive" James Hodgkinson, who shot Steve Scalise along with other Republicans and two DC police.

Look this is a false equivalency, and totally down plays the different kinds of rhetoric coming from Trump and, say, your example Bernie.  Yes, people are crazy; that's why you don't incite violence at rallies, dehumanize your opponents, or condone attacks on members of the media. 

 

Come on, man.

[Badsmerf]

I'm glad they caught him, and nobody was hurt. It would help the country is Trump stopped enticing physical violence against his critics.

[LaBombo]

Look this is a false equivalency, and totally down plays the different kinds of rhetoric coming from Trump and, say, your example Bernie.  Yes, people are crazy; that's why you don't incite violence at rallies, dehumanize your opponents, or condone attacks on members of the media. 

 

Come on, man.

 

I guess you were in a hurry and skipped the part where I condemned Trump, or maybe it was insufficiently disparaging for your taste.

 

But PLEASE don't play the "false equivalency" card as if it either explains away a disturbing disparity in the partisan nature of the media coverage of the two events, or much, much worse, makes one party accountable for its crazies but absolves the other for theirs entirely.

 

Political extremism is NOT a zero sum danger, and to suggest otherwise can be taken as a passive form of extremism in itself.

 

Edit: The more that comes out about this guy, the easier it will be to remember that the defining characteristic of all violent political crazies is the crazy part, not the political part.

 

Sayoc was a male stripper before starting two businesses purporting to have something to do with being "Native American". His mile-long rap sheet of prior crimes predates the Trump campaign and presidency by nearly two decades.

[LaBombo]

 

I'm glad they caught him, and nobody was hurt. It would help the country is Trump stopped enticing physical violence against his critics.

 

It would help if everyone would tone things down, but yes, absolutely starting with Trump. I'm hoping that his staff will talk him into doing so.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I guess you were in a hurry and skipped the part where I condemned Trump, or maybe it was insufficiently disparaging for your taste.

 

But PLEASE don't play the "false equivalency" card as if it either explains away a disturbing disparity in the partisan nature of the media coverage of the two events, or much, much worse, makes one party accountable for its crazies but absolves the other for theirs entirely.

 

Political extremism is NOT a zero sum danger, and to suggest otherwise can be taken as a passive form of extremism in itself.

I don't see the relevance of mentioning Sanders at all.  It's classic both-side-ism.  "Yeah, Trump does bad things, but did you know about those crazy, violent liberals?"

 

Yes, political extremism is bad all around, but one political persuasion has a monopoly on that, with only a few exceptions. 

[LaBombo]

 

I don't see the relevance of mentioning Sanders at all.  

 

The relevance is that it's irrelevant. Individual crazies aren't the product of "their" parties, as much as you want to hold one, and only one, responsible for producing them.

 

I'm ecstatic and relieved that they caught this idiot, whose history of violence predates his or Trump's involvement in politics by decades. I hope that his arrest serves as a deterrent to anyone who would consider a copycat crime or any others.

 

But if you believe that one party has a "monopoly on political extremism" while the other continues to be co-chaired by a man who has endorsed multiple hate groups throughout his career, then I think we're done here. Have a good weekend.

[Mike Sixel]

One of the "leaders" incites violence, one does not. There is no equivalence here at all between how Sanders talks about his opponents, and Trump does. Not close.

 

There are certainly Dem leaders I don't like for groups/people they've supported, but NONE OF THEM are POTUS, or elected and cheered on by millions of people, publicly, for call outs of violence against his opponents. 

 

It isn't about extremism, it is about how one fights it, even on their own side. Or, in one case, encourages it.

[LaBombo]

 

One of the "leaders" incites violence, one does not. There is no equivalence here at all between how Sanders talks about his opponents, and Trump does. Not close.

 

There are certainly Dem leaders I don't like for groups/people they've supported, but NONE OF THEM are POTUS, or elected and cheered on by millions of people, publicly, for call outs of violence against his opponents. 

 

It isn't about extremism, it is about how one fights it, even on their own side. Or, in one case, encourages it.

 

Trump is the most egregious and harmful example, as I've agreed repeatedly. And yes, the BernieBro went on his homicidal anti-Republican rampage without any irresponsible trash talk from Sanders.

 

All he had to go on was the insane hate rhetoric in an ocean of angry Democrats who posted in Facebook groups like "Terminate the Republican Party", along with the occasional wink from mass media fantasies about assassinating Trump, the most recent of which was published the day before the bomb scare in that bastion of rational non-violent progressivism, the New York Times.

 

If you want to believe that a lifelong violent felon was suddenly made violent who went all Manchurian candidate simply by Trump egging on the "Lock her up" idiots, have at it. Personally I believe that his daily diet of hate sites that mirrored those which Hodgkinson frequented had much more to do with his crime.

 

In any case, we're all personally responsible for our conduct, and to my way of thinking, at least, there's nothing that even a dolt like Trump can say that justifies a regular poster in this forum calling for Democrats to label ALL Republicans "Nazis" at every opportunity.

 

That exhortation went unchallenged, btw.

 

Don't give in.

[gunnarthor]

 

Trump is the most egregious and harmful example, as I've agreed multiple times.

 

But as bad as he is, it doesn't justify a regular poster in this forum calling for liberals to label Republicans "Nazis" at every opportunity.

 

That exhortation went unchallenged.

 

Don't give in.

 

The 'whataboutism' with conservative America is a truly dangerous matter. I'm glad you agree that Trump is bad. 

 

That said, I certainly haven't read every page in this thread but just looking over the last ten pages and no one but you has used "Nazi" so I'm not sure people are doing what you allege. And what you allege if frankly a non-issue. There is absolutely no comparison about violent extremism in America. The rightwing is far more violent and has committed far more acts of terror in America. It's not even close. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/09/28/right-wing-warnings-pose-far-more-danger-america-than-left-wing-violence/?utm_term=.e0b225e12462

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/why-does-the-far-right-hold-a-near-monopoly-on-political-violence/

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Trump is the most egregious and harmful example, as I've agreed repeatedly. And yes, the BernieBro went on his homicidal anti-Republican rampage without any irresponsible trash talk from Sanders.

 

All he had to go on was the insane hate rhetoric in an ocean of angry Democrats who posted in Facebook groups like "Terminate the Republican Party", along with the occasional wink from mass media fantasies about assassinating Trump, the most recent of which was published the day before the bomb scare in that bastion of rational non-violent progressivism, the New York Times.

 

If you want to believe that a lifelong violent felon was suddenly made violent who went all Manchurian candidate simply by Trump egging on the "Lock her up" idiots, have at it. Personally I believe that his daily diet of hate sites that mirrored those which Hodgkinson frequented had much more to do with his crime.

 

In any case, we're all personally responsible for our conduct, and to my way of thinking, at least, there's nothing that even a dolt like Trump can say that justifies a regular poster in this forum calling for Democrats to label ALL Republicans "Nazis" at every opportunity.

 

That exhortation went unchallenged, btw.

 

Don't give in.

 

I don't believe he "suddenly" turned violent.....never said that. I said it is about how other people respond that matters.