POTUS Donald Trump

[Mike Sixel]

Key paragraph:

 

In essence, we’ve moved from “partisanship,” which still allowed for political compromises in the end, “to tribalism,” which does not, explained political scientist Norman Ornstein, co-author, with Thomas Mann, of the book “It’s Even Worse Than It Looks: How the American Constitutional System Collided With the New Politics of Extremism.” In a tribal world it’s rule or die, compromise is a sin, enemies must be crushed and power must be held at all costs.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/opinion/the-american-civil-war-part-ii.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

[Craig Arko]

Key paragraph:

 

In essence, we’ve moved from “partisanship,” which still allowed for political compromises in the end, “to tribalism,” which does not, explained political scientist Norman Ornstein, co-author, with Thomas Mann, of the book “It’s Even Worse Than It Looks: How the American Constitutional System Collided With the New Politics of Extremism.” In a tribal world it’s rule or die, compromise is a sin, enemies must be crushed and power must be held at all costs.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/opinion/the-american-civil-war-part-ii.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Yes, collapse from within. This has been Putin’s strategy all along. We did it to the Soviet Union, and he’s returning the favor.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Key paragraph:

 

In essence, we’ve moved from “partisanship,” which still allowed for political compromises in the end, “to tribalism,” which does not, explained political scientist Norman Ornstein, co-author, with Thomas Mann, of the book “It’s Even Worse Than It Looks: How the American Constitutional System Collided With the New Politics of Extremism.” In a tribal world it’s rule or die, compromise is a sin, enemies must be crushed and power must be held at all costs.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/opinion/the-american-civil-war-part-ii.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

 

I don't know what will break tribalism.  Part of the issue has been technology, it has opened the door for more extreme versions of this.  I'm not sure how we put an end to the kind of awful stuff we hear out there that drives the discussion.  

 

Truth has become very subjective and both 30 percents (party-wise) seem content with that.  I'm really not, but I'd be lying if I said I had any great solutions.  Keep pounding the drum of truth and good sense?  Doesn't seem like it's working, but I'm not sure how much anyone is actually pounding either.

[Doomtints]

We don't really have tribalism.

 

The right dislikes anyone who does not agree with them 100%. They have a news network that portrays them as victims, always under attack. They have trained their constituents to dislike everyone outside of their circle, that any statement from outside of their circle is an attack on them.

 

People in the north just don't know how bad it is. Southerners are trained to believe that Democrats are satanic, therefore any bad thing a Republican does is still not as bad as a Democrat. 

 

Senator John Kennedy (from Louisiana) went on FOX to state that the Republicans understand the Kavanaugh issue because they were raised on mother's milk, and Democrats don't understand because they were raised eating raw meat. What he is saying is that all Democrats are satanic, that the #MeToo movement is satanic, that every disagreement with them is coming from the devil.

This can't be stated enough, and I really don't think people in the north can get their heads around it. On conservative radio in Texas I once heard someone call another person a murderer, a rapist, and finally, a Democrat. Only the latter got a response. The person was incredibly offended and angry at being called a Democrat, went on a long rant, and if they had been in the same room together there would have been punches thrown.

 

Those in the South who are not staunchly religious are trained to distrust both sides. I can't count the discussions I had where someone says both sides are bad ... but then they always vote Republican anyway. Why? They never could quite say, but it seemed to be that if Democrats are for social justice, why are they making money.

 

I'm ranting a bit of course, I have a lot of frustration when so many people in journalism (generally based in NYC) completely misunderstand what's going on because they have never parked themselves in the South for any length of time. Then they start mumbling about "Both sides" before they understand what's even going on. It's a farce and it's going to kill this country. And, much worse, people who follow mass media to stay "informed" are being fed this ignorant narrative and we have pointless discussions like this one. It's not both sides. One side is completely over the edge and the other side is trying to play by the rules.

[Mike Sixel]

 

We don't really have tribalism.

 

The right dislikes anyone who does not agree with them 100%. They have a news network that portrays them as victims, always under attack. They have trained their constituents to dislike everyone outside of their circle, that any statement from outside of their circle is an attack on them.

 

People in the north just don't know how bad it is. Southerners are trained to believe that Democrats are satanic, therefore any bad thing a Republican does is still not as bad as a Democrat. 

 

Senator John Kennedy (from Louisiana) went on FOX to state that the Republicans understand the Kavanaugh issue because they were raised on mother's milk, and Democrats don't understand because they were raised eating raw meat. What he is saying is that all Democrats are satanic, that the #MeToo movement is satanic, that every disagreement with them is coming from the devil.

This can't be stated enough, and I really don't think people in the north can get their heads around it. On conservative radio in Texas I once heard someone call another person a murderer, a rapist, and finally, a Democrat. Only the latter got a response. The person was incredibly offended and angry at being called a Democrat, went on a long rant, and if they had been in the same room together there would have been punches thrown.

 

Those in the South who are not staunchly religious are trained to distrust both sides. I can't count the discussions I had where someone says both sides are bad ... but then they always vote Republican anyway. Why? They never could quite say, but it seemed to be that if Democrats are for social justice, why are they making money.

 

I'm ranting a bit of course, I have a lot of frustration when so many people in journalism (generally based in NYC) completely misunderstand what's going on because they have never parked themselves in the South for any length of time. Then they start mumbling about "Both sides" before they understand what's even going on. It's a farce and it's going to kill this country. And, much worse, people who follow mass media to stay "informed" are being fed this ignorant narrative and we have pointless discussions like this one. It's not both sides. One side is completely over the edge and the other side is trying to play by the rules.

 

Kind of my point for the last few posts.....there is no reconciliation in any short term with people that have been brain washed by their parents, schools, churches, media, friends for their entire lives. 

 

Why is divorcing them not an option?

[Badsmerf]

I would be so willing to let the middle United States be their own country. Could Minnesota join Canada? I'd have to think, with some concessions to the constitution in Canada, they could add a significant portion of the northern states, and possibly the whole west coast besides Alaska (because Alaska would rather be their own country). I work in many red states, and the ignorance is purposeful. Some of my colleagues are dead set climate change isn't real, not even a little bit. That country would be worse than Israel...

 

The better option is adding Puerto Rico. They would add more balance to the Senate and electoral college forcing the GOP back to the center. It would also likely shift policy to the left from were it is now, Which would be like the civil rights era in the 60's for some. There are still people that vote who were (are?) against that movement btw. Much easier and less messy than dividing the country.

 

I think you'll feel better after the midterms Mike.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I would be so willing to let the middle United States be their own country. Could Minnesota join Canada? I'd have to think, with some concessions to the constitution in Canada, they could add a significant portion of the northern states, and possibly the whole west coast besides Alaska (because Alaska would rather be their own country). I work in many red states, and the ignorance is purposeful. Some of my colleagues are dead set climate change isn't real, not even a little bit. That country would be worse than Israel...

The better option is adding Puerto Rico. They would add more balance to the Senate and electoral college forcing the GOP back to the center. It would also likely shift policy to the left from were it is now, Which would be like the civil rights era in the 60's for some. There are still people that vote who were (are?) against that movement btw. Much easier and less messy than dividing the country.

I think you'll feel better after the midterms Mike.

 

I only feel partly bad, since much of this is out of my control, I've learned not to let it "bother" me.....but I do fear for my children and their children, when it comes to jobs and the environment. Both are on an inevitable course of "things literally cannot continue as is".

 

And, I don't think the country ever divides. Maybe a better idea is to add Canada and Puerto Rico, and take over the country by numbers.....as you said. Though no Canadian would ever do that.

 

As for the mid terms. The Dems will take the House, but may lose ground in the Senate. Less than 35% of millenials have indicated they are likely to vote this election.....while 80% of OLD people will. Sigh.

[D. Hocking]

What is the big deal of the murder of a journalist, who is a US resident writing for a US paper,  by a foreign government when there is money at stake?     Of course, he had no problem encouraging his crowd last night to chant "lock her up" about Diane Feinstein while he smiled smugly (while the gulf coast was getting decimated by a hurricane).     She is much worse than a murdering dictator.

 

Aaron Rupar
@atrupar

Trump on possibility of punishing Saudi Arabia for apparently murdering a dissident journalist: "I don't like stopping massive amounts of money that's being poured into our country... they are spending $110b on military equipment and on things that create jobs for this country."

 

 TRUMP: "Again, this took place in Turkey, and to the best of our knowledge Khashoggi is not a US citizen, is that right? He's a permanent resident, okay... as to whether we should stop $110b from being spent in this country, that would not be acceptable to me."

 

 

 

 

Then there is the whole separate issue of how that military equipment being sold is being used by the Saudis - we might not want to be bragging and proud about how we are making money in this case.

[Badsmerf]

Money is worth more than non American lives. It's disgusting our president even mentioned that he wasn't a US citizen.

[howeda7]

 

Kind of my point for the last few posts.....there is no reconciliation in any short term with people that have been brain washed by their parents, schools, churches, media, friends for their entire lives. 

 

Why is divorcing them not an option?

Setting aside the fact the impracticality of splitting into separate counties, we are fooling ourselves wif we think this is a north vs. south issue. I'm guessing we all have friends/relatives in MN, ND, SD etc. that share these exact same views. Lots of them.

[Mike Sixel]

Setting aside the fact the impracticality of splitting into separate counties, we are fooling ourselves wif we think this is a north vs. south issue. I'm guessing we all have friends/relatives in MN, ND, SD etc. that share these exact same views. Lots of them.

Yup. So what's the real alternate, because they are told these things by every authority in their life? Give me an alternative that would work.

[Badsmerf]

I tend to believe if you eliminated the propaganda and lies, many of their beliefs would evaporate. Also, you'll never make everyone happy.

 

I listened to fox business on the way home. I was surprised at the nob bobbing, even in that space. There was no objective analysis, just high fiving about tax cut and less regulation. There was more politics than business. On other networks, there was actual economic discussion, and theories about the recent 1000 point drop of the Dow.

[Mike Sixel]

There is no realistic way to eliminate fox, and their churches, and schools and parents. What is a realistic way to change their minds some? Not totally, some.

[Badsmerf]

I've asked myself this question since November 2016. It is like a hydra, in that you cut off one head and another just as hateful takes its place.

 

The comparisons to the rise of the Reich, and I'd argue, the rise of ISIS is similar to how the GOP keeps power. Manipulate the message or flat out lie, promote an extreme nationalist message that paints outsiders as criminals and the enemy, discredit or jail/kill critics, feed the greed machine that got you there.

 

There are so many totems to topple. The disgusting behavior Trump shows is mirrored by those in the gop base. I think there will be a severe backlash against Trump in the next 2 election cycles. Hopefully that will help more states draw fair competitive districts, and end some of the extremism.

 

Liberal ideas are popular. Push them, and don't be afraid of it. Yes, the right will kick and scream about changing, but it is only because they are afraid of change. Step up. That is why Bernie did well, and Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez won, and how others will win after them.

[TheLeviathan]

How about just spending more time and effort on getting people registered and to the polls?

 

One of the reasons we have a democrat in the Senate from Alabama is because there was less whining about all the obstacles in the way of a win and more action to ensure a win.

 

You have less control over what the Republicans are doing to brainwash their voters, so act on what you do have control over.

[Mike Sixel]

I have no control over Alabama. I'm not whining, I'm asking a question. If thirty percent of the population cares nothing for other people, the environment, etc., what is the answer?

[TheLeviathan]

I have no control over Alabama. I'm not whining, I'm asking a question. If thirty percent of the population cares nothing for other people, the environment, etc., what is the answer?

Mobilize the majority of the other 70%.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Mobilize the majority of the other 70%.

 

How....they've been trying that for decades. Like, I'm asking for specifics here......

[TheLeviathan]

How....they've been trying that for decades. Like, I'm asking for specifics here......

You're also moving the goal posts a lot. Are you asking about you personally (as your last response seemed to indicate) or more generally?

 

I thought my last post was fairly specific and your response dismissed it because you personally aren't in Alabama. So I have no idea what discussion you actually want.

[Mike Sixel]

We have a Senator from Alabama because the GOP candidate was a ...not sure what word to use....and the timing was PERFECT. Do we really think that is replicable?

 

Also, since we know the GOP is literally stifling the vote, how do we get around that?

 

And, you did say "you"...hence my reply about Alabama. But pretend it isn't about me, but Dems in general because that's more important.

 

The Dems have been trying to "turn out the vote" for decades. It hasn't worked for the most part. It didn't even work in Obama's second run.....and "turn out the vote" isn't very specific. How? Because whatever they've been trying isn't working. Trump might help with that, but we'll see if many state houses, governorships, and the Senate really move soon. I have my doubts.

[TheLeviathan]

 

 

The Dems have been trying to "turn out the vote" for decades. 

 

I disagree.  They've been paying lip service to it for decades.  

 

The voters are out there and not turning out.  It can be changed with, I think, far less time, effort, and money than is typically spent on other forms of campaigning.  

[Badsmerf]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2017/11/22/at-yale-we-conducted-an-experiment-to-turn-conservatives-into-liberals-the-results-say-a-lot-about-our-political-divisions/

 

Maybe use this strategy Mike? Funny I came across this article while we've been discussing this topic.

[howeda7]

 

Yup. So what's the real alternate, because they are told these things by every authority in their life? Give me an alternative that would work.

I don't have a great solution. I encourage them to at least read/watch other sources once in a while in hopes they will break out of the echo chamber. I also try to do the same. I don't generally engage beyond that for the sake of keeping the peace.

 

But most of them still pretty much believe Trump is a God-appointed savior of our country and Hillary one of the worst political criminals of our time. I see a few cracks in the wall once in a while but I don't think anything fully changes that.

[howeda7]

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2017/11/22/at-yale-we-conducted-an-experiment-to-turn-conservatives-into-liberals-the-results-say-a-lot-about-our-political-divisions/

Maybe use this strategy Mike? Funny I came across this article while we've been discussing this topic.

Not sure I buy this premise or I would be the biggest conservative you ever met. Where's my purell?

[ashbury]

 

Do you ever watch Drunk History? Read this transcript from our president, and tell me it wouldn't be a good basis for a Drunk History re-enactment:

 

So Robert E. Lee was a great general and Abraham Lincoln developed a phobia, he couldn't beat Robert E. Lee. He was going crazy, but Robert E. Lee was winning battle after battle after battle and Abraham Lincoln came home and he said "I can't beat Robert E. Lee." And he had all of his generals, they looked great, they were the top of their class at West Point. They were the greatest people. There's only one problem: They didn't know how the hell to win. They didn't know how to fight. They didn't know how.

 

And one day, it was looking really bad. And Lincoln just said, "You," and hardly knew his name. And they said, "Don't take him, he's got a drinking problem." And Lincoln said, "I don't care what problem he has. You guys aren't winning."

 

And his name was Grant. General Grant. And he went in and he knocked the hell out of everyone. And you know the story. They said to Lincoln, "You can't use him anymore, he's an alcoholic." And Lincoln said, "I don't care if he's an alcoholic, frankly, give me six or seven more just like him." He started to win. Grant really did—he had a serious problem, a serious drinking problem, but man was he a good general. And he's finally being recognized as a great general.

 

But Lincoln had almost developed a phobia, because he was having a hard time with a true great fighter, a great general Robert E. Lee.

[PseudoSABR]

 

 

Do you ever watch Drunk History? Read this transcript from our president, and tell me it wouldn't be a good basis for a Drunk History re-enactment:

I finally understand Trumps long-game with Kavanaugh: drunken civil war general 2.0.   

[Champuckett]

 

I've certainly posted here and elsewhere that we may be at an impasse, and we may need to divide the union. Just because divorce used to be evil, doesn't mean it is now......

 

This is what will eventually happen.

 

We have an origin of this country based in succession from an imperial overgrown empire trying to hold onto all of it's properties when economic and culture events indicated it would not continue to work.  It's not that different from what's happening right now, it's just the geographic and demographics have changed.  We have grown too big, too greedy, too imperialistic, with all of these overseas occupations with no time limits, that continue to expand as each year goes on, through multiple presidencies, through multiple political parties.  Politicians no longer truly represent the people, corporate and political interests do.  Our economy, despite the best headlines from the the news networks, is struggling, the petrodollar is losing steam, and the people, the culture, are ready for something different, something new, something other than permanent debt based endless global warfare system we have had operating for at least 70 years.

 

All I hear about every day, from both sides, from both major political parties (and the smaller ones), is how crazy, how dumb, how idiotic, moronic, shortsighted, egotistical, damaging, and out of control the either side(s) are.  People have had it, don't want to take the time to think things through, don't want to take the time to discuss these issues, regardless of the side, and both sides are adamant that the solution is to simply take power and control the other side through force. Simply calling the other side "stupid" is enough to suffice and call it a day.  Alright.

 

Groups are ceasing the moment, the opportunity, trying to make this into some violent revolution.  They want to capitalize on the division.  Various militia groups on the right, antifa on the left.  Based on the small numbers of the people involved in these skirmishes, it doesn't seem to be building much of any momentum on the violent revolution front, so I'm doubting your average Joe is up for this in 2018.  We can certainly act now and avoid tensions escalating.  No one wants actual bloodshed, for the most part.  They want their beliefs and cultural values to be reflected in the people that represent them, and that's clearly not happening right now, but they certainly do not want large scale mass violence in the streets.  What this leaves on the table is more in the line of peaceful succession, something that California, Oregon, and Washington state are working on at this very moment and that Texas has worked on in recent years as well.  Even if it does not happen in the next few years, I think movements like this will continue to gain steam as the country continues to be divided further in ways and people want to end the daily tension and frustrations that are knocking us over the head on a constant basis.

 

Fractioning the country up in similar fashion to the USSR is almost certain at this point, but it is not wrong and it is not the worst thing that could happen.  Staying together no matter what, escalating tensions, and allowing a true civil war to break out when economics have bottomed out and the culture has deteriorated so badly is what could possibly happen.  The USSR played the canary in the coal mine for us, and we repeated the same illogical steps that they did to lead to this point of fracturing.  I think it's easy to take that as some kind of defeat or loss, since staying together and uniting has always been the preferred path, and unity is looked at as a strength, but the division is taking us so far away from the possibility of uniting on one front, you have to start to at least entertain the possibility that this is the path we are on, at least as of October of 2018.

 

If we do not at least entertain this notion, then you will continue to see tensions rise, infighting in both major political parties, political fights intensifying further, far.. far.. beyond anything you saw with the Supreme Court debacle, struggling for power, loss of morality, loss of sense, loss of meaning of what it means to be apart of this culture, together.  The further this divides us, the more people will begin calling for a separation of sorts from the opposing culture, from the opposing "team".  It will take some time, but I think the fact we are already seeing some movements grow in some states shows there is at least a small voice calling for this process to begin.  The quicker it happens, the better, for all of our sanity, regardless of political persuasion, race, or gender.

 

All states have built within their state constitutions legal remedies to allow this process to begin.  They will all be highly debated and contested intensely in the coming years as these movements begin to gain traction and institutions that currently maintain power refuse to let their power extinguish.  Anyone and everyone can get involved if they want to and have some say in what happens, or you can remove yourself completely and let others determine you and your families future with zero input.

 

Or.. you could simply call me crazy, and shrug everything off and continue on as you always have,  battling every day for years and decades to get your supported people/party in power in control with the same outcome guaranteed in the long run.  Take the bitter, but helpful medicine now, or continue enduring the illness that continues to grow every day.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Fine post

Thanks for being so thoughtful; but first, I have to say there's a false equivalency (that may well prove true over time, but certainly not now) in terms of dealing blame for the strife. Antifa? Give me a break. That's not actually a movement that has support among the left.  Sure we are all anti-fascist, but there are no political candidates supporting that movement.  Unlike, the right, which tacitly and openly seems to support some awful white supremacist, among other right wing awfulness. 

 

There is a divide, and it has grown through tribalism, and really, the clever and effective right wing propaganda machine.  The left just isn't as "sophisticated" or as motivated (no profit in it) to make such propaganda, though, of course they do, just not in the mobilized, in-sync effort of the right.  

 

Dividing up the country is completely insane.  And would dissolve in to war over resources inevitably.  Let's not play that out (i.e. the West running out of water/the South running out of minable of resources).  

 

We are at a unique point in history where the populace has access to more information then they have been educated to deal with.  This is a failing of our society as it was anticipated.  But lest not forget that the right is always the enemy of critical thinking and it is that *inevitability* that will provide our solace.  (In other words a bunch of dumb people have access to the internet (information) when they didn't before).  Each subsequent generation will learn to be cynical of social media news, and professional media, to the point that they will reject it and hopefully learn for themselves (which I think is an inevitability).  

 

And in our time people are prone to the narrative that they are victims and their fellow Americans are the perpetrators (minorities/liberals); but that narrative will lose steam, as the tax cuts don't make really help out most people, and really, there aren't and new jobs.  What growth there is in the GDP reflects the wealthy gaining more and more, not wages which actually impact real people who vote. 

 

I mean it's a bit cool to imagine the country dividing that the coasts would form their own countries with the midwest and the south another one or several.  It's neat to think about. But unlike the USSR the states (save Texas and a few others) have had no independence prior to the formation of the USA; there is no cultural ethnicity with each state could rally its independence.   

 

There may come a time that we must take arms to defend what we believe is right, but I believe that will be a world-wide phenomenon.  Maybe a necessary one, given the uber-wealthy's unwillingness to cede any power at all.   For my part, we've been living in a "let them have cake" scenario and been okay with it, as along as we get ours (as Americans), even at the expense of the people of the world generally.

[Badsmerf]

Splitting the country isn't a good idea. You pointed out Texas, Texas could turn purple by 2030. I don't think they would vote to break off from the Union again. If more minorities voted it would be a blue state.

 

I just had a situation where a friend of mine shared a 1 minute video of Nancy Pelosi discussing a media smear campaign. It was presented to show her describing a Democrat tactic that they used on Kavanaugh. I showed she was actually describing a Republican strategy. He finally conceded... Then, this morning posted how both sides are dirty and he still felt the same way. The bias runs so deep.

 

I never see self proclaimed liberals go out of their way to make right wing protesters or supporters look stupid. It is a beloved segment on faux and many internet platforms. Constantly showing the libtards and devaluing them as propaganda.

 

End citizens United. I'm sure it benefits democrats too, but it helps the gop way more. Politics has only degraded since it came to be. Imagine if those rich companies put all that money back into the workforce instead of political races. It is depressing to think they are more concerned with getting their agenda into office than paying their workers.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

End citizens United. I'm sure it benefits democrats too, but it helps the gop way more.

It absolutely helps the Democrats.

 

It helps everyone keep things just the way they are and to push corporate and special interest agendas over the good of the people.