POTUS Donald Trump

[Squirrel]

 

For the record I'm an Independent, so I don't have a party. Though I certainly lean left both in my beliefs and in my opinion of the state of the two parties at this time.

While I agree that the left often plays too nice, and needs to fight fire with fire more often, I'm just not sure I'm ok going that far. There are political manipulations, and then there is just plain making a mockery of the government.

And while I'll certainly concede that the right has already crossed the line into Mockeryville, I'm not sure we can recover if both sides do.

I don't think we can recover with just the one side doing that.

[gunnarthor]

I read somewhere today that their could be a real behind the scenes push to get Collins and/or Murkowski to switch sides and join the Dems or see if the outgoing GOP Senators who are through with Trump - McCain, Flake or Corker - would flip, making the Dems control the chamber through the midterms.

 

Those two women could be offered high profile positions in a Dem majority. I think this is unlikely to happen but probably the most realistic real-world solution.

[TheLeviathan]

Considering the implications for women, I hope that is the first thing they try.

[Mr. Brooks]

I don't think we can recover with just the one side doing that.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know.

What I do know is that the Republicans tread into mockery and disgusting behavior has turned me from an independent who voted close to 50/50 into one who has voted almost exclusively democratic the last decade almost.

 

If the Democrats join them, they will lose my vote. I will either not vote, or I will vote third party, which most often will steal votes from Democrats.

 

I have to imagine there are other like minded independent voters out there.

[Badsmerf]

It would be one thing to shut down the government one time with this method. They could use it to stump about money in politics and begin painting the GOP as strings fat cats pull. That could be effective. But, a constant stunt like that wouldn't go over well.

 

I agree with Levi, that if you can't beat them you don't join them. You need to just do everything else better and change what you've been doing. The game is being manipulated right now. I fear the erosion of our country happening. All is not lost, but hope is grim right now.

[Mr. Brooks]

Agreed. If we get to a point where shenanigans like that are the only way to win, then I'm not sure we're worth saving anymore.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Divide the nation. seriously.

 

No!  I'm in Red Country!  

 

But I assume you blue folks will allow for asylum seekers.....

[Vanimal46]

No! I'm in Red Country!

 

But I assume you blue folks will allow for asylum seekers.....

Come on down to Austin and help us build a wall! Lord knows we need the help as the blue dot in a deep red sea....

[Mike Sixel]

No! I'm in Red Country!

 

But I assume you blue folks will allow for asylum seekers.....

I am not kidding. If half the country wants this, let them have it. There is no reconciling with people that don't believe in science, logic, and empathy.

[TheLeviathan]

 

It would be one thing to shut down the government one time with this method. They could use it to stump about money in politics and begin painting the GOP as strings fat cats pull. That could be effective. But, a constant stunt like that wouldn't go over well.

I agree with Levi, that if you can't beat them you don't join them. You need to just do everything else better and change what you've been doing. The game is being manipulated right now. I fear the erosion of our country happening. All is not lost, but hope is grim right now.

 

I was thinking about this discussion and I think we glossed over a very real problem for the Democrats.  Yes, they are backed into an ugly corner right now on this issue.  But they got here by getting their asses handed to them at so many local and state levels that their options out of that corner have been thoroughly restrained.  They handcuffed themselves for years by focusing on D.C. rather than drumming up the kind of focus and dedication to local races.  And those losses have added up over time.  

 

Yes, the Republicans are playing dirty, but incompetence by Democrats (and self-inflicted in-fighting and some dirty play of their own during Republican opposition) have been complicit.  

 

I don't think we help America by eroding the rules of decorum in our government.  That's the mentality both parties have used when they are in power and then they whine the second they lose the power to play that game.  We didn't always operate that way.  We shouldn't operate that way.  The ends rarely justify the means, especially if you arm your enemy with those same harsh means for use later.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I was thinking about this discussion and I think we glossed over a very real problem for the Democrats.  Yes, they are backed into an ugly corner right now on this issue.  But they got here by getting their asses handed to them at so many local and state levels that their options out of that corner have been thoroughly restrained.  They handcuffed themselves for years by focusing on D.C. rather than drumming up the kind of focus and dedication to local races.  And those losses have added up over time.  

 

Yes, the Republicans are playing dirty, but incompetence by Democrats (and self-inflicted in-fighting and some dirty play of their own during Republican opposition) have been complicit.  

 

I don't think we help America by eroding the rules of decorum in our government.  That's the mentality both parties have used when they are in power and then they whine the second they lose the power to play that game.  We didn't always operate that way.  We shouldn't operate that way.  The ends rarely justify the means, especially if you arm your enemy with those same harsh means for use later.

 

so, let them erode freedom, gut healthcare, get rid of abortion rights, just let them win? don't play to win?

[PseudoSABR]

 

No!  I'm in Red Country!  

 

But I assume you blue folks will allow for asylum seekers.....

If not Austin, Tucson is pretty liberal, er non-crazy right wing; come on down. 

 

Arizona is primed to flip colors one of these days.  (Though we keep saying this).   In a similar vein how sweet would it be if Beto beat Cruz in Texas.  So Fing sweet.

[TheLeviathan]

so, let them erode freedom, gut healthcare, get rid of abortion rights, just let them win? don't play to win?

Well, you might not be so desperate if you fought to win more generally. Dems have failed so miserably at the state and local levels...maybe if you played to win there the score might be different.

 

What is being discussed here is another escalation of nuclear war. No one wins that.

[PseudoSABR]

/late night rant

 

I understand the notion to protect our public institutions, our way of governance, but there may be nothing left by the time we--what stay the tide, survive Trump, gerrymandering, Russia voter rigging, and god knows what else? This is an awful situation--sure, some of the Democrats own making; but not my making, and not your making, probably (oh, those cynics, who chose not to vote...).

 

It sucks when life present you with a zero-win game. But not playing means your very dangerous opponent wins (can you hear Trump's rally in North Dakota?).  I particularly don't care how well anyone sleeps at night or with what dignity they might claim to hold onto when the stakes are this high.   Yes, perhaps, we can be the righteous in the sea of ashes, but what our sense of morality leaves us is just that: ashes.

 

What do we really mean by integrity? What is the right thing? These aren't easy questions; and our own personal reservations, perhaps, are the least important given the stakes.  This isn't some game over taxes or union rights (there is that too), but this is about whether we endorse forced birth, whether we continue to allow monogamous same-sex couples to marry; and really who knows what else is at stake. 

 

Sure, there's an order here: we wait for who is announced, we try to turn a sith to the light side, and then we play hard ball.  Obama's great mistake was not pressing his Garland appointment.  Let's not cow to people who don't play by the rules.  How naive are we? 

 

/regret post (maybe) 

[Badsmerf]

At what point will the escalation stop? Continuing to fight dirtier and dirtier will destroy our nation the same way or worse than a corrupt party will. That isn't the answer.

 

Education is a huge factor right now. The demographic supporting these policies are widely known. The millennial generation will be a huge factor very soon. As the baby boomers die off, their (our) voting influence will be magnified. Millennials in general have fled the Republican party. All we know is Clinton, Bush and Obama. I voted for Bush in 2004, but have watched the party of Bush dissolve into a religious, fascist, nationalist party of fear and hypocrisy. I, and many more, will have nothing to do with them for a long time.

 

It is amazing how much damage this presidency is doing, but hope is not lost. The Jedi wouldn't behave like the Sith, so neither should the democrats. Trump will be a 1 term president, and hopefully the country can be repaired.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

so, let them erode freedom, gut healthcare, get rid of abortion rights, just let them win? don't play to win?

I have to agree with Levi on this one. If you ratchet up the conflict and erode checks and balances, sure, you might win in the short term.

 

But you lose even bigger the next time the opposition regains power.

 

It's a game that everyone loses in the long term as we slowly spiral into losing the democracy.

[ashbury]

Divide the nation. seriously.

Putin's long game didn't wind up taking that long after all.

[Badsmerf]

I have to agree with Levi on this one. If you ratchet up the conflict and erode checks and balances, sure, you might win in the short term.

 

But you lose even bigger the next time the opposition regains power.

 

It's a game that everyone loses in the long term as we slowly spiral into losing the democracy.

I agree with the idea of a backlash. Liberals, democrats, and moderates are more engaged and passionate than I've ever seen. The backlash against Bush, the Iraq war, and the housing crises led to Obama and democrats sweeping 2008. But electing a black man, complacency and targeting a vulnerable base led to republicans taking the midterm... and taking their game down to a new low in American politics.

 

However, the are now sliding down the slope, with little chance of slowing down. Our country isn't completely ignorant, and there are enough to push back. This behavior has turned purple voters into blue, and red into purple. There will always remain a good portion of the population easily manipulated, a portion that directly benefits from this policy and those that staked their flag and refuse to listen to anything else. They are not the majority. I'm willing to bet right now that trump losses by more than 5 million votes next election. Damage will have been done, but can be repaired.

[Mike Sixel]

Putin's long game didn't wind up taking that long after all.

It could be that, sure. But thirty percent of the nation literally doesn't care about honesty, or other people, and wants to take away freedoms for non white, non Christian, non straight people. And they are willing to ignore Russian influence, graft, and the end of environmentalism and workers rights to do so. What the answer? Just let them keep doing it?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I'm willing to bet right now that trump losses by more than 5 million votes next election.

Without checking, I think he lost by 4.5m last time around.

 

My biggest concern at this point is complacency within the public. It's easy to check the box of the devil you know and not think about it too hard.

 

Then again, the Democrats will probably nominate another Gore or Kerry, which hands the election to the GOP again.

 

It would help if the Democratic Party stopped being incompetent and found someone with a pulse and/or isn't despised by a huge portion of the voting public.

[PseudoSABR]

And when SCOTUS announces that Trump can indeed pardon himself, we'll at least know we didn't escalate the procedural tactics any further.   At least we'll have that.

[Vanimal46]

It would help if the Democratic Party stopped being incompetent and found someone with a pulse and/or isn't despised by a huge portion of the voting public.

This is the crux of the matter. Lots of complaining, doom and gloom, and no plan in place to win in the future.

 

Find someone to rally around and don't stoop to the GOP's level of dirty antics to get what they want.

[Mike Sixel]

And when SCOTUS announces that Trump can indeed pardon himself, we'll at least know we didn't escalate the procedural tactics any further. At least we'll have that.

Thity years from now, when no on has rights, there is no clean water, LGBT are in jail, and corporations do whatever they want with employees, our kids will be able to say we played by rules written hundreds of years ago, to ensure decorum in the Senate.

 

Yes, this is probably an exaggeration.

[Mike Sixel]

This is the crux of the matter. Lots of complaining, doom and gloom, and no plan in place to win in the future.

 

Find someone to rally around and don't stoop to the GOP's level of dirty antics to get what they want.

Rallying around Obama got us here. How did that work out?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

And when SCOTUS announces that Trump can indeed pardon himself, we'll at least know we didn't escalate the procedural tactics any further.   At least we'll have that.

Honestly, I think the self-pardon talk is pretty pointless. Do we care if this asshat ends up in jail or not?

 

I want him out of the Oval Office. I don't care how that comes about, I just want him gone. Whether he goes to jail or not doesn't really matter to me.

 

And if he has to pardon himself, there's no ****ing way he isn't impeached. Congress would collapse in on itself the following election and the biggest blue wave in history would hit the government.

[PseudoSABR]

 

This is the crux of the matter. Lots of complaining, doom and gloom, and no plan in place to win in the future.

Find someone to rally around and don't stoop to the GOP's level of dirty antics to get what they want.

No, it's not the Democrats fault.  Let's just stop with that.  It's our fault, if we want to blame someone.  We should rally around a potato if it gets Trump out of office.  In the words of a recent president, let's stop giving up the good, for hope of the perfect.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Thity years from now, when no on has rights, there is no clean water, LGBT are in jail, and corporations do whatever they want with employees, our kids will be able to say we played by rules written hundreds of years ago, to ensure decorum in the Senate.

Except that power isn't (or at least shouldn't) be inevitable and permanent.

 

And what happens the next time the opposition takes power? They up the ante... just like we've seen in every power transition for the past 25+ years. The GOP stoops to a new low, the Democrats continue along the rules of that low. Then the GOP stoops to a new low, the Democrats then play along at that new low...

 

Where does it stop? We need to reestablish checks and balances, not continue to erode them because everyone loses sooner or later under those rules.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

No, it's not the Democrats fault.  Let's just stop with that.  It's our fault, if we want to blame someone.  We should rally around a potato if it gets Trump out of office.  In the words of a recent president, let's stop giving up the good, for hope of the perfect.

It's not about being perfect, it's about not nominating terrible candidates.

 

Look what happened the one time they nominated a not-terrible candidate in the past 18 years. He won two terms.

 

The Democrats have a solid track record of nominating completely uninspiring people to run the country. Were they smart people? Sure. But Gore, Kerry, and Clinton rally people behind them at the same rate as the color beige.

[Vanimal46]

Rallying around Obama got us here. How did that work out?

You and Pseudo are more knowledgeable than me. IMO we got here rallying around Hillary. And it didn't help when things got dirty between Bernie and Hillary to earn the Presidential nomination of the party.

[Mike Sixel]

Except that power isn't (or at least shouldn't) be inevitable and permanent.

 

And what happens the next time the opposition takes power? They up the ante... just like we've seen in every power transition for the past 25+ years. The GOP stoops to a new low, the Democrats continue along the rules of that low. Then the GOP stoops to a new low, the Democrats then play along at that new low...

 

Where does it stop? We need to reestablish checks and balances, not continue to erode them because everyone loses sooner or later under those rules.

Tell that to the people of Turkey.

 

Honest question, thirty percent of the US loves this. Why do you want to stay married to them? Why is this make up of land mass so important?

 

What's your answer? The way the Constitution is set up literally provides less populated, rural, right wing, voters an advantage in the Senate and presidency. The deck is literally stacked against us.