POTUS Donald Trump

[Craig Arko]

[AZTwin]

If your life is in immediate threat from violence, the long process of legal immigration attempt isn't very helpful.

 

And when you are arrested in America, yes you and your child could be separated, but they will be placed with other family or a qualified care home. They won't be thrown in a cage with inadequate food, water and healthcare, and supervised by people not trained or equipped to do so.

 

And do you have a link supporting your claim that 83% of these children are being separated from predators?

 

Just because these people are breaking the law, doesn't mean we shouldn't treat them with dignity and compassion. They are human beings, and it's understandable why they want to come here.

 

If a person's argument is compassionate and empathetic, but insistent on enforcing the law, well I can respect that.

But too often i see arguments that show almost a glee for their mistreatment, and zero empathy for their situation. That's where I get lost, and tune out arguments that might otherwise be compelling.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/06/20/trump-will-support-bill-reversing-child-separation-policy/amp/

 

And they aren’t being treated poorly. We are trying to take care of them well while trying to solve the dangerous situation they were unfairly put in

[TheLeviathan]

 

They won't be thrown in a cage with inadequate food, water and healthcare, and supervised by people not trained or equipped to do so.

 

What is your basis for this claim?  This is not something I've heard suggested with any real evidence.  (In part because no one has been allowed into some of these facilities)

 

I think it's important we don't add too much hyperbole to this issue.  What Trump is doing is awful enough without adding theatrics and falsehoods to it.  If this is true, then by all means, but I'm curious as to your basis for this criticism. 

[PseudoSABR]

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/06/20/trump-will-support-bill-reversing-child-separation-policy/amp/

And they aren’t being treated poorly. We are trying to take care of them well while trying to solve the dangerous situation they were unfairly put in

Those are Trump's quotes.  He's making this stuff up, my friend.  He's lying to you, and you're willingly eating it up.  

 

The president of the American Academy of Pediatrics declared that the treatment of these children is child abuse.   The policy is morally wrong and is NOT dictated by law. 

[Squirrel]

 

Concentration camps? What are you talking about. He is saving many kids. He is finally enforcing the law which caused 12,000 to be in detention centers while everything got sorted out. The media focused on the 2,000 that were separated from their families. But what about the other 10,000? Those were separated from people other than their parents. These are their smugglers, coyotes, etc which often traffick these kids in the sex trade. It’s pure evil and we are helping these kids.

As for the other 2,000? He fixed that with an executive order (which can be reversed by democrat president) after Democrats punted on changing the law. But I mean what happens to adults when they are jailed normally? Child protective services separate the adults from the kids. This is happening in the United States every day. I’ve seen arguments that we need to have a heart and take in people for asylum because of the rough conditions of Mexico (drugs, murder, cartels) but we need to encourage those to go to one of the many port authorities throughout Mexico to apply for asylum legally. It is much safer for the children. We can’t have children make that dangerous trek.

I don't care what anyone's views are on immigration, pro or con, what people should or shouldn't do. I don't care where you land on the political spectrum, that's everyone's right to choose. But this policy, POLICY, that came from the White House, from Trump and his administration, is wrong on every level, and your justification of it is akin to how Germans went along with Hitler. This is child abuse, to rip children, nursing babies even, away from parents, in a strange country, where they don't know the language, and put them in cages with little but mats/cots to sleep on, deprive them of human contact and comfort (workers were instructed not to give any human comfort) ... that kind of treatment is beyond cruel, hence my 'concentration-camp' like comment, because that's what it is. It is NOT the law to do this, was never the law to intentionally separate families; this is new policy set forth by the Trump Whilte House. It's torture. Yes, fine, detain people who try to cross the border illegally, but keep these kids with their families. Most of these parents don't even know where their kids are. And some of these families present themselves at the border LEGALLY, seeking asylum. Why are they being treated so? They've broken no laws, yet their young ones are being forcibly separated from them. Don't give me a 'Well, they should've done something different' story, because that is so far from the point. Far from the point. And now the military is being asked to provide 20,000 beds for these recently caged children. Seriously. There is just no justification for this. NONE. It is NOT law to cause certain physical and mental harm to children who did nothing but travel with their families. They likely have no idea what immigration is, legal or illegal. We aren't saving them, we are doing serious harm. That to me is no finer definition of evil that I can muster.

 

And so you know, I don't get my news from random sources ... I get my news from NPR, PBS, BBC, WSJ, 538, WaPo. These are not slanted sources. But when every single one of them has a myriad of articles all saying the same thing about what is happening, there is little I can deny. But obviously you have a different source that is nothing but denial. Good for you. /s

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Concentration camps? What are you talking about. He is saving many kids. He is finally enforcing the law which caused 12,000 to be in detention centers while everything got sorted out. The media focused on the 2,000 that were separated from their families. But what about the other 10,000? Those were separated from people other than their parents. These are their smugglers, coyotes, etc which often traffick these kids in the sex trade. It’s pure evil and we are helping these kids.

As for the other 2,000? He fixed that with an executive order (which can be reversed by democrat president) after Democrats punted on changing the law. But I mean what happens to adults when they are jailed normally? Child protective services separate the adults from the kids. This is happening in the United States every day. I’ve seen arguments that we need to have a heart and take in people for asylum because of the rough conditions of Mexico (drugs, murder, cartels) but we need to encourage those to go to one of the many port authorities throughout Mexico to apply for asylum legally. It is much safer for the children. We can’t have children make that dangerous trek.

Good God, man. Come up for air.

 

This is horrible policy. So completely and conclusively awful that no decent person should be defending it. These are human beings with families and children. They deserve respect, compassion, and unity. That doesn't mean you need to agree/disagree with either side of the immigration debate; this is simply a basic human decency issue. There's a reason why most major churches, other nations, and pretty much every non-partisan group in the country opened both barrels and skewered this administration over these camps (and, yes, by strict definition, they are "concentration camps").

 

Your argument sounds a hell of a lot like the "slaves had it pretty good" lunacy circulating a few years ago before everyone with a conscience showed such horror in response that everyone stopped saying it.

 

If this was such a good idea and Trump is on the side of right on this issue, explain why he backpedaled so fast and furiously and drafted an EO just days after he said "this can't be fixed by Executive Order".

[AZTwin]

Those are Trump's quotes. He's making this stuff up, my friend. He's lying to you, and you're willingly eating it up.

 

The president of the American Academy of Pediatrics declared that the treatment of these children is child abuse. The policy is morally wrong and is NOT dictated by law.

He’s lying? I’ve seen multiple people cite those numbers. Care to back up your claims with actual sources of facts?

[Mr. Brooks]

What is your basis for this claim? This is not something I've heard suggested with any real evidence. (In part because no one has been allowed into some of these facilities)

 

I think it's important we don't add too much hyperbole to this issue. What Trump is doing is awful enough without adding theatrics and falsehoods to it. If this is true, then by all means, but I'm curious as to your basis for this criticism.

"Today, with border apprehensions down considerably, the government’s treatment of migrant children is still unacceptable, according to human rights advocates and immigrants. They told the court that children in Customs and Border Protection custody were not able to bathe or brush their teeth, that they were given insufficient food and water, that they were held in cold temperatures and that they were unable to sleep."

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_595405bbe4b0da2c7320cc4f/amp

 

 

"As detailed here, the experts identified repeated, clear-cut instances of subpar medical care, including inadequate care that contributed to seven deaths in detention. They also found numerous examples of systemic substandard and dangerous medical practices in other cases—such as overreliance on unqualified medical staff, delays in emergency responses, and requests for care unreasonably delayed."

 

https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/05/08/systemic-indifference/dangerous-substandard-medical-care-us-immigration-detention

 

 

"According to the report, many detainees called their cells “hieleras,” or freezers, because they were far too cold. The detainees also got inadequate food and water, and they faced unhygienic living conditions.

 

“Andre told me about once seeing a detainee fighting with a rat over his food,” Hinojosa reports in her testimony."

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/report-finds-harsh-conditions-at-immigration-detention-centers/433035/

 

 

"Immigrant detainees held at three facilities in New Jersey are subject to "harsh and inhumane conditions,'' and have been served raw and spoiled food (some containing worms or maggots), dirty drinking water, and damaged and insufficient clothing and hygiene products, according to a human rights organization report released this week."

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.northjersey.com/amp/381429002

 

 

"Not so for the detainees, though. Food, in particular, continued to be a big problem, according to outside monitors—well before disclosures that Entrekin reeled in a small fortune for himself in “surplus” food money.

 

“In no other detention facility have we received so many complaints of inadequate, inedible and insufficient food,” the Women’s Refugee Commission said in a 2012 report (PDF). “Every detainee reported to us that the quality and quantity of the food was by far the worst at any facility in which they had been detained.”

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thedailybeast.com/the-worst-place-ever-is-ices-etowah-county-detention-center-in-alabama

 

 

"Some of the immigrant children crossing the border say they are being subjected to abusive and inhumane treatment in U.S. Border Patrol stations in South Texas. This includes frigid holding rooms, sleep deprivation, verbal and psychological abuse, inadequate food and water, denial of medical care, and worse.

 

Dozens of children have come forward to make complaints against Customs and Border Protection officers. The agency responds that any complaints are the result not of mistreatment, but of its stations being overwhelmed by the surge of minors."

 

Sixta says the room was kept so frigid she caught a cold, and it went untreated for so long that she started bleeding from her nose and throat. When she asked for a doctor, she says, agents slammed the steel door to the cell in anger. Most Border Patrol stations have paramedics who are supposed to provide medical care.

 

"Sixta says agents told her and her sister, "You damned Hondurans are a pest in our country."

 

"A Salvadoran girl said they were refused water and had to drink from a toilet tank. Several kids said agents came in at all hours of the night to pound the walls with their batons to wake them up to do a count."

 

"There are also complaints of verbal abuse, of agents calling the children and teenagers "parasites," "dogs," "whores" and worse, and threatening them with bodily harm."

 

https://www.npr.org/2014/07/24/334041633/amid-wave-of-child-immigrants-reports-of-abuse-by-border-patrol

[Mr. Brooks]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/06/20/trump-will-support-bill-reversing-child-separation-policy/amp/

 

And they aren’t being treated poorly. We are trying to take care of them well while trying to solve the dangerous situation they were unfairly put in

Quotes from Trump are not facts.

He is caught lying and/or making up or exaggerating figures on an almost daily basis.

 

Even his quote you linked is contradictory.

The other 10,000 came with someone else, bad people, some of them.

 

Some of the 10,000 came with bad people? How many is some? 10? 100? 1000? 5000? He doesn't specify.

[TheLeviathan]

While I appreciate all of the links, many of them predate the Trump administration.  You should probably note that in your criticism.  (Also, many of the articles were about adults)

 

That doesn't make it ok, but on an issue this sensitive and this morally repugnant, we should be really careful about the accusations we throw around.  I tend to think that's a pretty important distinction to maintain from Trump.  (You know, truth and accuracy.  That and not being talking excrement)

[PseudoSABR]

 

He’s lying? I’ve seen multiple people cite those numbers. Care to back up your claims with actual sources of facts?

I can't disprove statistics that he makes up. The burden is on you. Do you really think 83% of the people trying to come in the country are sexual predators? You need to establish that as fact. I can't disprove a fake statistic. The way the system works is if you are in this country illegally, they criminally prosecute you for that illegal status (not because you are a sexual predator, I mean, how the heck would they even know that!), and then they take your children away. These people have committed no crime beyond their mere presence. Again, the burden is on you to show that the children are being protected, but that flies in the face of common sense. Have you listened to that audio tape. These children are not crying out in thanks.

 

I really, really don't mean to insult you. But is it possible that Trump is telling you want to hear, and not the truth?   

 

Look, I live in Arizona, we might be neighbors. But a lot of these people being prosecuted might be family members of our neighbors;  we can't just assume they are sexual predators, and take their children away.  And more, they have no plan to bring the parents and children back together after deportation. That's not only wrong, but very impractical, and lacks any kind of prudence. Sure, we need to have system for dealing with this people; before Trump, we did this through a civil process, not it is criminal.  Remember we will be judged for how we treat the weak, the sick, and the strangers.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't really understand why you are policing this.  It's pretty obvious tempers flare, and the other side isn't exactly fact based.  Sure we shouldn't exaggerate, but what's worse is shaming people on the right side of this issue.  Make your suggestion of restraint, and move on; less you be on the wrong side. 

 

This is everything wrong with our politics.  Indignation over truth.

 

They can go together you know.

[PseudoSABR]

 

This is everything wrong with our politics.  Indignation over truth.

 

They can go together you know.

I deleted my post, it's not worth fighting over it.  I agree indignation over truth is ugly.  So is indignation over innocent exaggeration. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I deleted my post, it's not worth fighting over it.  I agree indignation over truth is ugly.  So is indignation over innocent exaggeration. 

 

I started this by asking if it was factual or exaggeration.  All the news I've been watching has shown that governors, mayors, and members of Congress have been blocked from entry.  That's pretty disturbing in and of itself.  So when someone asserts they know the conditions of these facilities - that's news to me.  News I'm not seeing published.  What was given to me to support that assertion was a range of articles as old as 4 years ago.  That's shoddy evidence and doesn't support the claim.

 

The conditions might be brutal but I don't think we know that.  Here's what we do know: Separating these kids is unnecessarily traumatic.  And causing trauma to children for any reason is something I have nothing but disdain for.  And the fact that this was done for political leverage is inhuman.  It's beyond the pale.  I struggle for adjectives to describe how horrid it is.  

 

The truth we know for certain is ugly enough.  We distract from that if we lie or exaggerate.  (And make no mistake...the other side looks for these sorts of over-steps to exploit)

[AZTwin]

I can't disprove statistics that he makes up. The burden is on you. Do you really think 83% of the people trying to come in the country are sexual predators? You need to establish that as fact. I can't disprove a fake statistic. The way the system works is if you are in this country illegally, they criminally prosecute you for that illegal status (not because you are a sexual predator, I mean, how the heck would they even know that!), and then they take your children away. These people have committed no crime beyond their mere presence. Again, the burden is on you to show that the children are being protected, but that flies in the face of common sense. Have you listened to that audio tape. These children are not crying out in thanks.

 

I really, really don't mean to insult you. But is it possible that Trump is telling you want to hear, and not the truth?

 

Look, I live in Arizona, we might be neighbors. But a lot of these people being prosecuted might be family members of our neighbors; we can't just assume they are sexual predators, and take their children away. And more, they have no plan to bring the parents and children back together after deportation. That's not only wrong, but very impractical, and lacks any kind of prudence. Sure, we need to have system for dealing with this people; before Trump, we did this through a civil process, not it is criminal. Remember we will be judged for how we treat the weak, the sick, and the strangers.

I said 10,000 of 12,000 weren’t with their parents. They are a mix of being with traffickers, going on own (very dangerous), and even criminals. It’s not like I pulled that number out of air or Trump is the only one that has quoted that number. Nearly every news report I’ve seen uses that 10,000 and 2,000 figure. I mean if you don’t believe it, fine. I can’t prove to you that the sky is blue apparently. The whole point was to show that this isn’t as a clear cut situation as the democrats make it out to be. There is a crisis at the border and the children need to be protected.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I said 10,000 of 12,000 weren’t with their parents. They are a mix of being with traffickers, going on own (very dangerous), and even criminals. It’s not like I pulled that number out of air or Trump is the only one that has quoted that number. Nearly every news report I’ve seen uses that 10,000 and 2,000 figure. I mean if you don’t believe it, fine. I can’t prove to you that the sky is blue apparently. The whole point was to show that this isn’t as a clear cut situation as the democrats make it out to be. There is a crisis at the border and the children need to be protected.

Children don't need to be protected from their own parents. Sex trafficking does happen. But this is an absurd way to address that issue.   

 

The vast majority of the children and parents being separated are refugees; yes coming here illegally, but many seeking asylum. Their crime is seeking a better life.  What would you do for your child? If I was born into the poverty of some of these Central American countries, I would try to get myself and my child to America, where there might be hope for us. And I bet you would do the same. That should not be a crime; even if we cannot accept these people within our borders. Let us not lose our empathy, our better selves.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I said 10,000 of 12,000 weren’t with their parents. They are a mix of being with traffickers, going on own (very dangerous), and even criminals. It’s not like I pulled that number out of air or Trump is the only one that has quoted that number. Nearly every news report I’ve seen uses that 10,000 and 2,000 figure. I mean if you don’t believe it, fine. I can’t prove to you that the sky is blue apparently. The whole point was to show that this isn’t as a clear cut situation as the democrats make it out to be. There is a crisis at the border and the children need to be protected.

 

The 10,000 number does seem to be accurate, but that number is in reference to "unaccompanied" minors.  By linking "unaccompanied" to trafficking and abuse, it is deliberately misleading.  It tries to paint the administration as looking out for the kids.

 

In reality, the administration used those 2,000 kids they traumatically separated from their parents as leverage on Congress.  And they repeatedly lied about whose fault it was that it was happening.

[AZTwin]

Children don't need to be protected from their own parents. Sex trafficking does happen. But this is an absurd way to address that issue.

 

The vast majority of the children and parents being separated are refugees; yes coming here illegally, but many seeking asylum. Their crime is seeking a better life. What would you do for your child? If I was born into the poverty of some of these Central American countries, I would try to get myself and my child to America, where there might be hope for us. And I bet you would do the same. That should not be a crime; even if we cannot accept these people within our borders. Let us not lose our empathy, our better selves.

If you had real empathy you wouldn’t want these kids making this dangerous trek. There are 9 US consulted and 1 US embassy throughout Mexico where people can file for asylum legally and protect their children from the coyotes and smugglers, and general heat/desert conditions. It’s dangerous. If you had any heart you wouldn’t want these kids to go through this

[twinsnorth49]

 

BUILD THAT (NORTHERN) WALL!!

To keep some of you lunatics out? 

 

Yes please!!

[Mr. Brooks]

While I appreciate all of the links, many of them predate the Trump administration. You should probably note that in your criticism. (Also, many of the articles were about adults)

 

That doesn't make it ok, but on an issue this sensitive and this morally repugnant, we should be really careful about the accusations we throw around. I tend to think that's a pretty important distinction to maintain from Trump. (You know, truth and accuracy. That and not being talking excrement)

I don't care who the president was at the time.

This isn't a partisan issue to me, and the comment you originally quoted had nothing to do with Trump or what year it happens to be when children are neglected.

 

Some of the articles I linked were specific to children. Some were reported by human rights organizations, not rumors. And they were a mix of current and up to four years old. The conditions were inhumane then when Obama was in charge, and still are.

 

If you don't want to believe reputable news agencies and human rights organizations, that's on you. But don't insinuate that I'm making things up or exaggerating things.

In one of the linked articles, staff even acknowledges the conditions, claiming its understaffing and not intentional. Why would they acknowledge something that makes them look bad if it's not true?

[Mr. Brooks]

I started this by asking if it was factual or exaggeration. All the news I've been watching has shown that governors, mayors, and members of Congress have been blocked from entry. That's pretty disturbing in and of itself. So when someone asserts they know the conditions of these facilities - that's news to me. News I'm not seeing published. What was given to me to support that assertion was a range of articles as old as 4 years ago. That's shoddy evidence and doesn't support the claim.

 

The conditions might be brutal but I don't think we know that. Here's what we do know: Separating these kids is unnecessarily traumatic. And causing trauma to children for any reason is something I have nothing but disdain for. And the fact that this was done for political leverage is inhuman. It's beyond the pale. I struggle for adjectives to describe how horrid it is.

 

The truth we know for certain is ugly enough. We distract from that if we lie or exaggerate. (And make no mistake...the other side looks for these sorts of over-steps to exploit)

Please stop accusing me of lying.

Especially after I posted multiple reputable news links. You can choose not to believe them if you want, but they are being reported.

[AZTwin]

Please stop accusing me of lying.

Especially after I posted multiple reputable news links. You can choose not to believe them if you want, but they are being reported.

The problem is that most of them are being reported to blame Trump. All of the ones I’ve seen reported have been from prior to 2016, a fake cage (protest), and a little girl that was not separated from the family [according to father, who also claims they put lives in danger to reach US when ultimately they weren’t in danger in Hondorus]. From what I’ve seen, Trump has been the only one willing to fix the issue that has been existing for a long time. Unfortunately he only got an executive order that can easily be repealed by Democrats. It would have been nice to be bipartisan and make that a law

[Mr. Brooks]

The problem is that most of them are being reported to blame Trump. All of the ones I’ve seen reported have been from prior to 2016, a fake cage (protest), and a little girl that was not separated from the family [according to father, who also claims they put lives in danger to reach US when ultimately they weren’t in danger in Hondorus]. From what I’ve seen, Trump has been the only one willing to fix the issue that has been existing for a long time. Unfortunately he only got an executive order that can easily be repealed by Democrats. It would have been nice to be bipartisan and make that a law

Ah, it's fake news. Of course.

[AZTwin]

Ah, it's fake news. Of course.

Well i mean it’s occuring. 2,000 times apparently. But the erregious examples i have seen cited so far have been very dishonest and fit the categories above.

[AZTwin]

The part where they are blaming Trump is where its fake news. He’s the only one so far that’s been committed to fixing a problem that you all admit existed under the obama administration. Watch the CNN interview with Brooke Baldwin and Tammy Baldwin. Tammy was speechless and could only stutter nonsense when her hypocrisy was addressed

[AZTwin]

Here’s the link.

 

https://youtu.be/iXlxU9xeKDs

 

 

It would have been nice Tammy if you weren’t just virtue signaling and would have cosponsored Ted Cruz Bill to address this topic but the democrat platform is “resist”. Resist all progress to a better America for EVERYONE that this administration is working towards

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Resist all progress to a better America for EVERYONE that this administration is working towards

You mean like the GOP did to Obama for six straight years? They even refused to vote on a SCOTUS nomination. Pretty sure Trump got to nominate his guy, though.

 

I'm not defending every action of the Democrats over the past 18 months but don't even try to play the obstruction card. In case you haven't noticed, the GOP controls every level of government right now.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Here’s the link.

https://youtu.be/iXlxU9xeKDs


It would have been nice Tammy if you weren’t just virtue signaling and would have cosponsored Ted Cruz Bill to address this topic but the democrat platform is “resist”. Resist all progress to a better America for EVERYONE that this administration is working towards

 

This "party of resistance" stuff applied to the Republicans not that long ago.  They control Congress and the Presidency.  If they fail - it ain't on the Democrats. I think it's awful that we have an all or nothing approach and that compromise is a dirty word....but make no mistake, that festered on the right first.  That was the baby of Rush Limbaugh and many of the other hard right-wingers who skewered any Republican willing to work with a Democrat.  

 

And you're right - the Dems have played politics with this issue too long also but which voting block in Congress is the problem? You know which one that is?  The one Paul Ryan can't wrangle in to even get a Republican bill through.  The one that fought Obama and the Gang of Six at every turn when compromises were attempted.

 

The borderline racist, no compromise, anti-immigrant base of Trump's support.  The hard right/Goodlatte bloc that is beyond rational thinking.  Trump is not helping anything and neither is that group.  It's Trump who separated children for leverage to fulfill a campaign promise. 

 

No person in their right mind should support that.

[gunnarthor]

For those interested, here's a good primer on what you can do to help the kids. It can be a simple as signing a petition or volunteering with organizations that are fighting back on this.

 

https://www.aclu.org/families-belong-together

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

And you're right - the Dems have played politics with this issue too long also but which voting block in Congress is the problem? You know which one that is?  The one Paul Ryan can't wrangle in to even get a Republican bill through.  The one that fought Obama and the Gang of Six at every turn when compromises were attempted.

It amazes me how conservatives overlook this at every turn. We've gerrymandered the House into a non-functioning entity. It's both parties' fault but only one party has a considerable majority (yet still can't get anything done).

 

But hey, just keep blaming the minority (and mostly feckless) Democrats.