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Article: Bringing Back The Band... And That's Just Fine


Seth Stohs

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Lots of former players have joined front offices, and it has completely bombed.....just because you play doesn't mean you are a good coach/instructor/whatever their role is.

 

That said, as long as there is now 1 message, from top to bottom, I'm willing to see how it works. That clearly was NOT the case last year or the year before, from what the pitching coach has said.

And, the resistance to this should be pretty easy to understand....the number 1 complaint about the org, from many here, is that they don't bring in outside voices or even players (Jason Bartlett, seriously)...and this looks suspiciously like the past. Not saying it is or isn't, but not understanding peoples' fear about this seems like it is just ignoring the last 20 years....

Exactly, I think there is room for both sides of this discussion. What I find interesting is that they aren't being brought in for just one specific thing, as I think most former players are, and that they will also be doing a lot of learning. I see them more as a liaison between on-field and FO, and maybe more specifically between players and FO. I can see that being a good thing for defining needs and direction to have both sides ... in-field and off-field working together to find the best course.

 

That said, I understand the voices saying 'outside opinions.' I've also been a strong proponent of this in the past and it's difficult to not also be skeptical as well as interested. So ... time will tell. I want to see what Falvey and Levine are building first before I come to any real bias for or against,

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But when are you looking at?  Most of the minor league coaches and staff have come in after 2012 and have been producing very good results both in minor league wins but also player development.    Most of the current ML staff has came in around 2014.  I think Molitor should go but ...

 

Part of this burn it all down mentality doesn't stand up because people don't know what they want to burn down.  Klaw, of all people, has nothing but good things to say about both the Twins scouting and development departments, for example.  Brad Stiel has done a pretty good job since taking over in 2012.  I don't think he should go.  I'm on the fence on Johnson but know enough to know I don't know enough.

 

None of that has anything to do with what I posted.....so far, we are seeing more insiders than outsiders come into the org....that's what people are reacting to. Not saying it is good or bad, saying that anyone who can't understand the angst isn't actually trying at all to understand people that don't agree with them...the major issue in this world, frankly.

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None of that has anything to do with what I posted.....so far, we are seeing more insiders than outsiders come into the org.....

I think if you are equating hiring three former Twins (who last played for the org in 2015, 2011 and 2001) to be equal to hiring Falvey and Levine then we have real problems.  Those shouldn't be 1:1 comparisons.  

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I think if you are equating hiring three former Twins (who last played for the org in 2015, 2011 and 2001) to be equal to hiring Falvey and Levine then we have real problems.  Those shouldn't be 1:1 comparisons.  

 

I'm not.....but others are, and poo pooing their concerns seems like a brush off of people that others don't agree with, without even making an effort to understand their concerns. I don't know how to make that more clear...chitown got it.

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Count me in with the critics. Yes, other teams bring in their former players in similar capacities. But the Twins have been so insular, for so long, that this makes me wonder what has really changed with the new bosses.

 

What I would find more exciting is if Falvey and Levine brought in special instructors who were Indians or Rangers players. The Twins youngsters wouldn't have a preference which team their instructors played for. This isn't for the youngsters, it's for the long-time fans.

Edited by Boom Boom
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In fairness....NOTHING other than two new hires has really changed, right?

 

Still the same scouts, minor league managers and coaches and staff, still mostly the same major league staff....

 

You really can't understand anyone looking and thinking, "what has changed"? I don't care about this much, but I can certainly understand how people can look at this as the same old same old....

Year 1 of Falvey and   Levine.    Just   saying.....

Edited by HitInAPinch
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This clubhouse needs some fire and Hunter brings that dynamic no doubt (albeit controversial at times).  Cuddyer is apparently a leader and Hawkins is a standup guy as well.  Do i think they will be difference makers?  No, not really.  Mentors? Perhaps.  

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In fairness....NOTHING other than two new hires has really changed, right?

 

Still the same scouts, minor league managers and coaches and staff, still mostly the same major league staff....

 

You really can't understand anyone looking and thinking, "what has changed"? I don't care about this much, but I can certainly understand how people can look at this as the same old same old....

 

I don't think it's realistic to burn the place down and rebuild.  They need to imprint their vision on those here and find out who can go along with it and who is too stuck in the past.  

 

A few former players associated with the franchise doesn't move the needle much.  It's probably more of an olive branch than anything.

 

I do get the concern, the rampant nepotism in this organization has long been my main issue.  I'm just going to give these new guys plenty of leeway early on.  They deserve that and I don't want to judge their actions by decades of actions by Ryan.  I'm not sure that's fair.  But I am, just like you, wary of the nepotism.  

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I don't think it's realistic to burn the place down and rebuild.  They need to imprint their vision on those here and find out who can go along with it and who is too stuck in the past.  

 

A few former players associated with the franchise doesn't move the needle much.  It's probably more of an olive branch than anything.

 

I do get the concern, the rampant nepotism in this organization has long been my main issue.  I'm just going to give these new guys plenty of leeway early on.  They deserve that and I don't want to judge their actions by decades of actions by Ryan.  I'm not sure that's fair.  But I am, just like you, wary of the nepotism.  

 

Agreed, I will not judge them based on Ryan tinted glasses....

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Too much is being ballyhooed about bringing back Hunter, Cuddyer, Hawkins for their input.  Is it nice to have ex-MLBers in camp and in the organization yes but the bigger issues will be what Levine and Falvey do with the entire MiLB coaching staffs and instructors because THAT is where the organization needs a turnover especially on the pitching front.

 

2017 will be a work in progress but I'm betting by 17-18 offseason the MiLB staffs will look much different

Edited by Bob Sacamento
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For my money they are 'bringing back the band' to teach these guys how to be professionals.  You don't have the type of careers these guys had by mistake.  These 3 too were once immature and probably took the game for granted to a certain extent.  They had to be taught by pro's like Kirby what it takes to succeed.   Once they learned what it take to be a MLB player they did quite well for themselves.  I would be quite pleased if during spring training they offer on the field pointers.  Last time I checked Torii won multiple gold gloves and was considered a top 3 or so at worst CF during his prime.  LaTroy had a 20+ year MLB career and Cuddy won a batting title.  You don't do that by mistake.  With that being said we need to upgrade the talent levels on this club sooner rather than later especially in the pitching world. 

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Cuddyer made an astute observation when he pointed out that when he rehabbed he caught too much "III" and "are we there yet?" We have a younger generation that has absolutely no clue about working toward a goal because they've always got what they wanted when they wanted.

 

We know the Twins have a problem moving players at the right pace through the minors, but, we also don't if there is a problem with an "I" before "team" attitude that is holding back players.

 

It's very possible that's something that has been identified as a problem organization wide and these guys may be part of the answer.

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Cuddyer made an astute observation when he pointed out that when he rehabbed he caught too much "III" and "are we there yet?" We have a younger generation that has absolutely no clue about working toward a goal because they've always got what they wanted when they wanted.

 

We know the Twins have a problem moving players at the right pace through the minors, but, we also don't if there is a problem with an "I" before "team" attitude that is holding back players.

 

It's very possible that's something that has been identified as a problem organization wide and these guys may be part of the answer.

 

So, you are arguing that there-is-no-i-in-team-but-there-are-two-in-Torii is part of the solution for this?

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So, you are arguing that there-is-no-i-in-team-but-there-are-two-in-Torii is part of the solution for this?

The same Torii that got into a fight with Justin Morneau because Hunter thought Morneau lacked the appropriate work ethic?

 

Torii Hunter is known for his work ethic. That's a given. Hunter played for a long time at a high level. He was also known as a clubhouse guy.

 

I suspect Hunter just might have something to offer.

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Let me get this straight, our new front office has been on the job a month now and they've already succumbed to the nepotism of the Twons way. Wow, that must be one hell of a cultural pull.

 

Really, these two come from outside the organization and likely see something in the three that meets the needs that the new FO sees as important. It's not like Hunter, Cuddyer, and Hawkins have been outside MN. They've all experienced success with different organizations including the World Series. They were all popular and good team leaders. Their experience outside and within the Twins should bring a valuable asset to this organization. At least IMO that's what Falvey and Levine believe.

 

For those that fear a continuation of the same old way, I guess I can only say that one has to have a little faith and patience. It is very likely we won't see many major changes until deep into 2017. I think it's important to see the subtle changes at first, like signing Castro or releasing Plouffe.

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The same Torii that got into a fight with Justin Morneau because Hunter thought Morneau lacked the appropriate work ethic?

 

Sure.

Thought is the operative word here (other than the fact that LNP was punched, before Mornaeu would beat the * out of Hunter)

 

Fact:  Who was the MVP between those two?

Fact:  Who left the Twins for more $, after they made him a reasonable offer?

 

 

 

 

Edited by Thrylos
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In fairness....NOTHING other than two new hires has really changed, right?

 

Still the same scouts, minor league managers and coaches and staff, still mostly the same major league staff....

 

You really can't understand anyone looking and thinking, "what has changed"? I don't care about this much, but I can certainly understand how people can look at this as the same old same old....

 

Adding a Chief Baseball Operator whose job is to set the ton and the plan and the strategy for the whole organization is new. They have a new GM. Those are two pretty huge positions - some might say the biggest - in the baseball operations of the organization. 

 

Everyone underneath will have to adjust to the new thinking or not be here this time next year. 

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Everyone underneath will have to adjust to the new thinking or not be here this time next year. 

 

Thus, is the issue.  Go back and read what you wrote in this article.  The new hires were not "adjusting to any new thinking" but were channeling the "Twins Way" of "winning" of their time with the Twins, which is not new thinking (and they really did not win much...)

 

 

Edited by Thrylos
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Thus, is the issue.  Go back and read what you wrote in this article.  The new hires were not "adjusting to any new thinking" but were channeling the "Twins Way" of "winning" of their time with the Twins, which is not new thinking (and they really did not win much...)

 

It's a way of thinking in every organization. It's wanting players who are passionate about the team, who want to give back, who believe in the process from scouting to player development and all the way up to the big leagues. They all want to bring championships back to Minnesota. They believe in team. They have had a lot of respect and success. They want players to work hard and push each other while cheering for each other. Can't imagine there is an organization in baseball that wouldn't want those things. 

 

Also, it's very likely that these three have had these types of conversations with Falvey and Levine and grasp their thinking and their path. These guys won't be decision-makers. They'll each be small voices while learning the other side of the game, the front office side. 

 

 

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It's a way of thinking in every organization. It's wanting players who are passionate about the team, who want to give back, who believe in the process from scouting to player development and all the way up to the big leagues. They all want to bring championships back to Minnesota. They believe in team. They have had a lot of respect and success. They want players to work hard and push each other while cheering for each other. Can't imagine there is an organization in baseball that wouldn't want those things.

 

I get that, but please, stop it here.  Define success and define respect.

 

Torii Hunter has made some darn racist arguments against black Hispanics.  And he refused to apologize.  And now that burden is on the Twins Front Office...

 

Secondly.  I'd love to know how many collective world series titles these guys won for the Twins?

Zero, zip, nada.

 

No success.  No respect. (plus a racist who might blow up another day depending on questioning, or might call a reporter a "prick" but now on the Twins' payroll...)

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I get not burning it down and starting over, but isn't there some middle ground there?

Bruno and Jerry White, those are the only guys in the entire organization that Levine and Falvey have cut loose, am I correct?

I guess I figured that as completely awful as this organization has been the last 6 years, there might have been at least a few guys in the milb/scouting/training/analytics that haven't been getting the job done.

 

Now, of course, I'm not bailing. I still have high hopes for these guys and faith. But I'm definitely viewing them a bit more suspiciously than I was the day they were introduced.

 

If the idea is to take a year to familiarize themselves with everyone before making any firings, then I can accept that, but I hope that the people here who are expecting is to compete in the next 2 years realize that that essentially pushes the pause button for a full year.

I'm OK with that, I can accept the long view (if it works), but I know there are a few here who aren't going to be happy if it's a 4 or 5 year project.

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Sure.

Thought is the operative word here (other than the fact that LNP was punched, before Mornaeu would beat the * out of Hunter)

 

Fact:  Who was the MVP between those two?

Fact:  Who left the Twins for more $, after they made him a reasonable offer?

There are many articles out there, most of them about winning the MVP, saying that his work ethic was poor and he admitted that. His focus wasn't on the field. He was a known party boy and tried to get Mauer to do it too, which obviously did not work.

 

I don't agree with Hunter swinging at Morneau, but it's well known that many people, including his manager, believed that Morneau wasn't as focused on his job as he should have been. Morneau said a benching and a talk with Gardy is what turned it all around that year. He started to take his job more seriously...do early BP etc.

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I get not burning it down and starting over, but isn't there some middle ground there?
Bruno and Jerry White, those are the only guys in the entire organization that Levine and Falvey have cut loose, am I correct?
I guess I figured that as completely awful as this organization has been the last 6 years, there might have been at least a few guys in the milb/scouting/training/analytics that haven't been getting the job done.

Now, of course, I'm not bailing. I still have high hopes for these guys and faith. But I'm definitely viewing them a bit more suspiciously than I was the day they were introduced.

If the idea is to take a year to familiarize themselves with everyone before making any firings, then I can accept that, but I hope that the people here who are expecting is to compete in the next 2 years realize that that essentially pushes the pause button for a full year.
I'm OK with that, I can accept the long view (if it works), but I know there are a few here who aren't going to be happy if it's a 4 or 5 year project.

Butch Davis, but yes, those are the only known guys that have been removed by Falvey/Levine. There may have been more and they just haven't leaked, but I'm guessing that's not the case.

 

And I do believe that they plan on adding vs subtracting (your last paragraph). I think they've said that in few different interviews. That might change, but I'm guessing they don't know a ton about a lot of these guys so I'm assuming the plan is to see who's willing to get on board with their plan and who is also good at executing it. They can then cut the people who don't work out.

 

Also it sounded like both the Rangers and Indians did not want to let either guy take anyone from their previous organization. I know Levine had that agreement to not take anyone and it was thought that Falvey would take one guy, but instead that one guy re-upped with the Indians.

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While I understand the concern that a number of people have expressed over this move I'd like to point out that these individuals have had successes in other organizations as well as here. They will bring in that diversity of experience along with a passion for the organization that they all started with. When Cleveland and Texas brought in former big league players to front office/instructor type roles it was not players from elsewhere, it was players who had meaning and impact to those organizations.

 

With that said, this isn't a huge move but it is a start at building out the front office. The hires that might be the most impactful long term probably won't come with a press release because they won't be named the general public knows as they beef up scouting and analytic staffing. That and the minor league coaching staff is what I'm really interested in for this year.

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While Hawkins was certainly a significant player for the Twins, he left after the 2003 season.  He played for 12 more years, on 10 different teams.  He's experienced other team cultures and been exposed to other ideas, for quite a bit longer than he played for the Twins.  That ought to be a useful perspective to have when talking to younger players.

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I'd prefer they load up the front office with talent evaluators and stat guys, not guys stuck in the 1970's like Torri Hunter...

 

I do like the Hawkins hire, Cuddy could be interesting as well.

 

Hunter just reeks of "hey maybe this will sell tickets! Former Twins great!"

 

Hopefully I'm wrong.

Edited by DaveW
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Cuddyer made an astute observation when he pointed out that when he rehabbed he caught too much "III" and "are we there yet?" We have a younger generation that has absolutely no clue about working toward a goal because they've always got what they wanted when they wanted.

 

We know the Twins have a problem moving players at the right pace through the minors, but, we also don't if there is a problem with an "I" before "team" attitude that is holding back players.

 

It's very possible that's something that has been identified as a problem organization wide and these guys may be part of the answer.

 

Bull ****. On behalf of my sons, who are in that generation, you are wrong, very wrong, to disparage an entire generation. But go ahead generalize.

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