Article: REPORT: Twins To Sign Jason Castro

[King]

 

I get that Castro is good at pitch framing, but is that enough for $8 million per season?

 

He isn't a good hitter, he has a weak arm, and he is average at calling games.

Yes. His bat isn't bad for a catcher and 8 mil. isn't all that much money these days. When the other options are in house (murphy, garver, centeno - not good), signing Wilson Ramos (ACL popped and looking for a short term deal to rebuild value, will need regular rest days at DH), re-signing Suzuki (no thank you) or trading assets for a catcher from another team, I would say that it is a good deal. By no means is Castro a star, this is not an earth breaking signing. But his addition to the team is an upgrade, and he will help significantly.

[DJSim22]

 

Yeah I don't buy this.
"Calling a game" is the kind of non fact based thinking that Falvey specifically mentioned fixing, thankfully.
Suzuki was lauded for his mythical talent at calling a game, we all saw how useful that was.

 

You think framing a pitch is much more valuable than communicating with a pitcher?  I will respectfully disagree.  Falvey may value framing more than I do, but I suspect the signing is not solely base on framing. 

 

I think game calling/communication whatever else you want to add is extremely undervalued these days because the computer nerds can't find a way to quantify it.  If they could put a fancy little number next to it, then they would sell it.  Is framing useful? Of course it is, but but it is not in the top 5 things I'd look for in a catcher.  Maybe at 41, I'm an "old" baseball coach.  /rant.

 

[DJSim22]

 

Great pitch framer, questionable blocking skills, noodle arm, mediocre bat.  Hes no world beater but he at least has one legit mlb skill and is passable at others.  Good catchers are very hard to acquire unless its through your minor leagues or through your wallet at the top of the free agent pool.

 

I like this addition, watching Suzuki/ Doumit for a few years made me pine for DruBu and his defense.  I do wish Castro was better against the running game but then he would have cost more and had a larger market.     

 

I'm fine with the signing, but you bring up his questionable skills that I would argue are more important than framing.  Questionable blocking skills and a noodle arm shouldn't be taken lightly because of framing numbers.

[King]

 

You think framing a pitch is much more valuable than communicating with a pitcher?  I will respectfully disagree.  Falvey may value framing more than I do, but I suspect the signing is not solely base on framing. 

 

I think game calling/communication whatever else you want to add is extremely undervalued these days because the computer nerds can't find a way to quantify it.  If they could put a fancy little number next to it, then they would sell it.  Is framing useful? Of course it is, but but it is not in the top 5 things I'd look for in a catcher.  Maybe at 41, I'm an "old" baseball coach.  /rant.

 

There is game calling data in front offices, it's just not publicized. I assume it was considered by Falvey and Levine when they made the decision to sign Castro.

[King]

 

What do you mean by now what?
Getting those calls is better than not getting those, so it has value.

And I doubt you can name a single player in baseball with at least 1000 PA's who has better numbers behind than ahead.

 

I would love to see this!

 

Here are Mike Trouts career stats through each count. 238/280/423 when 0-2, and 408/823/732 when 3-0.  That is one of the best hitters in the game who is significantly worse when down in the count when he is ahead.

 

http://i.imgur.com/WL2FYKH.png

 

And here is Jeff Mathis.. one of the worst hitters in baseball.

 

http://i.imgur.com/coSq7L8.png

 

 

 

On the contrary, Alfredo Simon (by all accounts, terrible pitcher) held hitters to 273/273/442 when he got ahead 0-2 in the count this past year. If you're facing an elite pitcher like Aroldis Chapman, Andrew Miller, Clayton Kershaw, etc. and fall behind in the count. It's pretty much game  over.

 

 

Here is how hitters have hit against Chapman through each count over his career.

http://i.imgur.com/ohd177M.png

 

 

The difference is truly remarkable.

Edited November 24, 2016 by King

[The Wise One]

It is not the number of balls called strikes that is important here.   How quick the people here have forgotten Doumit and pinto behind the plate and having anything that was not a straight fastball  down the middle be called a ball as often as a strike.  If the pitcher thinks they have to pitch to a postage stamp sized strike zone, nothing good will happen.  Suzuki was a little above average at just below 15 %  Castro was among the best.  If you look at the best pitch framers getting 8-10 % of the balls called strikes thinking that would be a good thing, consider this,  if it expands the strike zone in the pitcher's mind they end up throwing more balls than strikes due to trying to get a strike.  The analysis I can't seem to find is do pitchers end up throwing more balls where it is tougher for the hitter to hit hoping to get a strike call with a pitch framing catcher. Stealing pitch totals are nice, but does it have an effect on the pitcher?   Quotes by a few pitchers on bad catchers leads me to think the strikes not being balls is very important to the pitcher.  Can't find out if the other scenario holds or not. Jack would probably know, but since he has not been fired, probably can't say.

[beckmt]

Would rather have the Twins spend their money on the bullpen and sign one or two top flight guys.  This may be a small helpful signing, but would rather give someone like Kelly Jansen 5/$95-$100 to pitch in critical situations and help the starters and the club by knowing not many games are going to be given away after 5 innings.  Also forces opposing manager to make decisions earlier in the game as being down after 5 could usually be end of game.

[HitInAPinch]

I don't know when the video of Castro framing a pitch was posted, but that sure looks like cheating to me.  

 

EXCELLENT SIGNING ! 

[DocBauer]

Castro as a LH hitter vs RH pitching:

 

.247 career BA/ .328 OB%/ .424 SLG%/ .753 SLG%/ .310 BABIP

 

I believe someone posted these earlier, but I wanted to look them up again myself and repost.

 

I hate stating the obvious, but the majority of pitchers Castro or anyone will face are RH. I don't have a breakdown comparison vs league average...maybe someone else does or would take the time to look it up...but those are quality numbers any way you slice it for a catcher. Yes, his numbers are pretty awful against LH pitching, Butera like since he's been brought up, but not only is the catcher position still a defense first one, but his platoon partner, Murphy or Garver, each hit RH so difficiencies in this area can easily be mitigated by simply being half way intelligent with your platoon days.

 

I am not overly informed on pitch framing, but have become more educated with the more I read, mostly right here at TD. And I dont put complete faith in today's advanced metrics because it's still a game actually played on the field, by human beings who still have to perform, and it's not a role playing game where you just roll dice and hope you hit your percentage mark. Nor do I believe for a second that stealing a couple strikes a game guarantees any sort of overwhelming game or season winning effect. But I do believe it does have an effect, especially WHEN that extra strike or two a game is called.

 

Imagine runners in scoring position, or the bases full, and that really close pitch "stolen" leads to strike 2 or even a punch out to end an inning. What if the batter hits defensively with a 2 strike count and only hits a weak single scoring a single run instead of a double or HR?

 

I still believe calling a good game, working well with a staff, and providing a nice, comfortable target for the pitcher is most important of all a catchers responsibilities. And I can't tell you how good Castro really is at these things at the end of the day. But surely framing pitches well, bringing experience and a new perspective to the team, the staff, and our young catchers, while still possessing a solid bat has to help a team that has really struggled the past few years.

 

Castro is by no means a stud or savior. But he qualifies as an upgrade to me, a step in the right direction. And at worst, he provides a solid, veteran presence until someone else proves themselves worthy and ready to take over.

[Rosterman]

 

Would rather have the Twins spend their money on the bullpen and sign one or two top flight guys.  This may be a small helpful signing, but would rather give someone like Kelly Jansen 5/$95-$100 to pitch in critical situations and help the starters and the club by knowing not many games are going to be given away after 5 innings.  Also forces opposing manager to make decisions earlier in the game as being down after 5 could usually be end of game.

With the Twins current situation, I'm not sure they really have to invest monies in expensive long-term bullpen arms. They have to develop and see what they have...get them up here. They have to make decisions (will Berrios stay a starter, as so Trevor May, or go to the bullpen). They need to look at Reed, Bard, Burdi, Jones, Hildenberger and others...and sooner rather than later. They need solid catching, not only at AAA (and AA) but the majors to work and develop these guys. Then you fill in the holes once you have a smidgen of a chance to be competitive (be it as early as 2018 or as late as 2019). Sadly, stockpiling funds the future is not something we have seen the Twins do, but at some point they have to go beyond revenue projections and play the marketplace again. But right now, they are on rebuild. Now the BIG job is to see if Dave St. Peter can earn his keep and sell this to the fans.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Are people really suggesting that pitch framing is cheating?

 

Ugh. It's not cheating. A large part of pitch framing is being really good at staying still. So now that's considered cheating?

[ashbury]

Are people really suggesting that pitch framing is cheating?

 

Ugh. It's not cheating. A large part of pitch framing is being really good at staying still. So now that's considered cheating?

Should close baseball games be decided on Style Points?

 

But joking aside, I am opposed to actions that an umpire can not be expected to police fairly on the field (steroids, gambling leading to throwing of games), and perfectly fine with what goes on between the lines that the umpires can judge within the rules of the game. Play on!

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Should close baseball games be decided on Style Points?

 

But joking aside, I am opposed to actions that an umpire can not be expected to police fairly on the field (steroids, gambling leading to throwing of games), and perfectly fine with what goes on between the lines that the umpires can judge within the rules of the game. Play on!

I agree, I just find it odd people are referring to pitch framing as cheating when such a large portion of pitch framing is "being really good at doing what all catchers are supposed to do". Steady hands, avoiding extraneous movement, and giving the umpire the best possible look at the incoming pitch is what all catchers should strive to achieve, as it makes the umpire's job easier (and more accurate).

 

The catchers who are bad at framing are the problem, not the other way around.

[DocBauer]

With the Twins current situation, I'm not sure they really have to invest monies in expensive long-term bullpen arms. They have to develop and see what they have...get them up here. They have to make decisions (will Berrios stay a starter, as so Trevor May, or go to the bullpen). They need to look at Reed, Bard, Burdi, Jones, Hildenberger and others...and sooner rather than later. They need solid catching, not only at AAA (and AA) but the majors to work and develop these guys. Then you fill in the holes once you have a smidgen of a chance to be competitive (be it as early as 2018 or as late as 2019). Sadly, stockpiling funds the future is not something we have seen the Twins do, but at some point they have to go beyond revenue projections and play the marketplace again. But right now, they are on rebuild. Now the BIG job is to see if Dave St. Peter can earn his keep and sell this to the fans.

Agree with your sentiment here. But I'm going to take the opposite stance.

 

Yes the team is rebuilding. And yes we have a number of really nice looking arms that are ready/close and need to be looked at. But I still believe the Twins can be a better, more competitive team, without necessarily blocking anyone, but upgrading where they can, including the bullpen.

 

In my blueprint for 2017, and in other threads, I've argued for a couple bullpen arms to be brought in. And remember, typically there are 7 spots to fill here, and I'm not sure it's prudent to just open the door and have a bumrush of prospects filling out said spots. There are a couple really interesting bounce back closer options out there that could settle the back end of the bullpen, at least for a time, and could be flipped later, OR, re-signed as they are young enough to keep around. Wouldn't we all like to see the young, rebuilding Twins actually win games they are in? How about a LHRP on the rebound, or a failed SP being converted to join Rogers from the port side?

 

Let's say you sign said closer and a lefty to team with Rogers, Chargois and Pressly. Let's put Duffey in the pen as well. That's still a young group, especially for a bullpen, IMO. You still have a last spot for the last man standing coming out of ST. Guys like Hildenberger, Jones, Burdi, Reed and Melotakis are still coming out of AA. You improve the pen, you may have a flip candidate or two, nobody has to be rushed straight from AA so they get at least some AAA exposure, and injuries and ineffectiveness always happen.

 

I think there'should room here to make said moves without breaking the bank or holding anyone back.

 

Sorry...got a little off topic here.

Edited November 24, 2016 by DocBauer

[sthpstm]

 

I agree, I just find it odd people are referring to pitch framing as cheating when such a large portion of pitch framing is "being really good at doing what all catchers are supposed to do". Steady hands, avoiding extraneous movement, and giving the umpire the best possible look at the incoming pitch is what all catchers should strive to achieve, as it makes the umpire's job easier (and more accurate).

 

The catchers who are bad at framing are the problem, not the other way around.

Haha, yes, completely.

Extraneous movement? I just keep replaying in mind Suzuki running his glove through and way out of the strike zone to catch a pitch that missed its spot, was technically a strike but called a ball thanks to the magic of Suzuki.

[Darius]

Don't mind this considering the options available.

 

I assume the Pohlad's have implemented their usual signing moratorium, and we'r done for the offseason.

[nicksaviking]

If MLB viewed pitch framing as cheating there's a pretty easy solution, that being balls and strikes called electronically.

 

Of course now that the Twins signed a guy good at pitch framing and perhaps not much else, I fully expect that to be in the new CBA.

[Lee-The-Twins-Fan]

i think it's a good move. Not a great one, but a good one. Castro adds depth at CA, something the Twins really need.

 

I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving. And if you didn't remember to Thank God for all your blessings.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

 

 

The catchers who are bad at framing are the problem, not the other way around.

 

Wrong on both counts. The problem is the people/system calling balls and strikes. This is something technology could fix, but if that happened, the Yankees would have same strike zone as the Twins...  and that would be a travesty.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Here is possibly a dumb question I have.

 

Now that a lot has been made of Castro's pitch framing ability, are umpires going to take notice and squeeze him a bit on those borderline outside pitches? I hope they wouldn't try to guess, but if they know Castro can basically expand the zone by 2 inces (that's a random guess by me, I have no idea if it is actually 1 centimeter or 1 foot) will they call it ball now knowing he has that ability, taking away his biggest strength?

its possible

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-beginning-of-the-end-for-pitch-framing/

[Miraclebat]

 

That's about how i feel as well.  This is a meh signing.  

 

I'm not excited about this signing for a number of reasons and let's stop sugar coating Castro as something he's not.  

 

First of all, his bat is bad, not mediocre... bad.  The last two seasons he's failed to hit higher than .211.  That atrocious even for a catcher.  On defense it doesn't get a whole lot better either.  I've seen a ton of hype here about pitch framing this, pitch framing that.  In 2015 base runners stole 42 out of 43 attempts and his weak arm is well document in Astros territory.  

 

So was this signing ONLY for pitch framing because he doesn't do a whole lot else particularly well?  Too me this is spending money for the sake of spending money on mediocre talent when we could have just rolled with Murphy and Garver or signed Drew Butera as a stop gap measure for two years 4 mil and gotten comparable results.      

lalo nailed it!  If this is an upgrade at catcher then it only highlights the disaster the previous regime was because we had Herrmann and Butera who both HIT better than Castro and both are better defensive catchers than Castro(blocks, caught stealing, etc.)  Not sure how those two compare to Castro in "pitch framing"....but I bet they were fairly close.

[Riverbrian]

I'm not a huge pitch framing guy. I totally understand that a stolen strike here and there can be absolutely huge in a match up and depending on the situation... the game... but... I'm still not a huge pitch framing guy.

 

If Castro is one of the top pitch framers in all of baseball and he just might be.

 

Shouldn't it translate more obviously to Catcher ERA?

 

If pitch framing is producing the results that people say. X Runs Saved... Shouldn't Castro have a better Catcher ERA than Evan Gattis does?

 

Or does the higher CERA suggest that despite ungodly pitch framing skills he minimizes that important skill with poor game and pitch management?

 

I wouldn't have spent money on the Catcher Position this year or any year for that matter but that's just my opinion and these are just questions that I have since pitch framing seems to be his best feature. .

 

I still pledge open minded support for Derek and Thad no matter what I type here.

[sthpstm]

 

lalo nailed it!  If this is an upgrade at catcher then it only highlights the disaster the previous regime was because we had Herrmann and Butera who both HIT better than Castro and both are better defensive catchers than Castro(blocks, caught stealing, etc.)  Not sure how those two compare to Castro in "pitch framing"....but I bet they were fairly close.

I don't think it's wise to expect a 28 and 32 year old suddenly learned to hit and that they won't dive back down offensively next year. If nothing else, check out their jumps in BABIP. And as others have stated or inferred, Castro needs to be employed on a fairly strict platoon against RH pitchers; his stats against LH pitchers were brutal (.478 OPS vs .757 against RH). You guys are right, his overall numbers are terrible, but get a guy who hits LH pitchers (Murphy, or maybe Chris Gimenez), and you have solid numbers against both LH and RH pitchers.

By Baseball Prospectus numbers, their pitch framing stats are not close, at all. And their improvements over him in the other areas, were not as great as you imagine them to be. FRAA Adj is Baseball Prospectus's measurement for catchers using Fielding Runs Above Average (FRAA) that "is augmented with framing, throwing and blocking contribution" and "is then added to the 'normal' FRAA components, such as fielding ground balls, to generate a total FRAA for the catcher."

By FRAA Adj, these 2 are not even close to Castro. Butera is at .8, Herrmann at -4.9 (MLB only), and Castro at 16.8. In other words, average, poor and excellent.

Falvey, Levine, and Baseball Prospectus disagree with you and laloesch and others here on your assessment.

Perhaps we all, myself included, would benefit from a great understanding of BP's catching analytics.

And maybe we can give the new guys a chance to install their systems and players before announcing we know better than they and some statistical organizations do.

[Mr. Brooks]

lalo nailed it! If this is an upgrade at catcher then it only highlights the disaster the previous regime was because we had Herrmann and Butera who both HIT better than Castro and both are better defensive catchers than Castro(blocks, caught stealing, etc.) Not sure how those two compare to Castro in "pitch framing"....but I bet they were fairly close.

Butera has not out hit Castro.

 

My response to you 2 pages ago:

 

I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but Butera last 3 years:

.604 OPS

Castro last 3 years:

.660 OPS

 

Herrmann is an awful defensive catcher. He is a corner outfielder who can play catcher in a pinch.

[Mr. Brooks]

I'm not a huge pitch framing guy. I totally understand that a stolen strike here and there can be absolutely huge in a match up and depending on the situation... the game... but... I'm still not a huge pitch framing guy.

 

If Castro is one of the top pitch framers in all of baseball and he just might be.

 

Shouldn't it translate more obviously to Catcher ERA?

 

If pitch framing is producing the results that people say. X Runs Saved... Shouldn't Castro have a better Catcher ERA than Evan Gattis does?

 

Or does the higher CERA suggest that despite ungodly pitch framing skills he minimizes that important skill with poor game and pitch management?

 

I wouldn't have spent money on the Catcher Position this year or any year for that matter but that's just my opinion and these are just questions that I have since pitch framing seems to be his best feature. .

 

I still pledge open minded support for Derek and Thad no matter what I type here.

Catcher ERA is a pretty worthless stat on its own.

You'd have to adjust for which pitchers they caught, and for opposing lineups.

Suppose the manager was more likely to use Castro with a poor pitcher against a tough lineup because he figured the pitcher was more likely to need the help in that match-up? And perhaps he uses favorable match ups as a good day to give Castro off. Without context, this of course is going to give Gattis an advantage in catcher ERA.

I'm not saying that happened, just pointing out one of probably many reasons why catcher ERA is worthless without context.

 

Pitch framing is something that the catcher has some control over. Catcher ERA is dependent on so many other factors.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Wrong on both counts. The problem is the people/system calling balls and strikes. This is something technology could fix, but if that happened, the Yankees would have same strike zone as the Twins... and that would be a travesty.

I'm in no rush to remove one of the most enduring and human aspects of the game so, no, I'm not wrong.

[jimmer]

 

I'm in no rush to remove one of the most enduring and human aspects of the game so, no, I'm not wrong.

Exactly.  I am wholeheartedly against automated balls and strikes.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Exactly.  I am wholeheartedly against automated balls and strikes.

I'm pretty wishy-washy on automated umpiring.

 

On the pro side, it would make for a more competitive, better game of baseball. Removing human error from the situation leads to more accuracy and a better level of play.

 

On the con side, it sucks much of the soul out of the game. Whether you love or hate human umpiring, something is lost when you look to a scoreboard to see the call instead of seeing a dynamic umpire throw out his arm and ring up a batter in a crucial situation.

 

And sports are emotional. There's a human element that comes with a live umpire standing behind the catcher.

[PseudoSABR]

Beyond robbing of the soul of the game, it would universalize a strike zone, depriving an element of strategy in there being no need for game-to-game (umpire-to-umpire) adjustment.  The drama of whether its a ball or a strike, both to the fan and the hitter, would become moot, as it wouldn't take long for the hitters (and the fans) to learn with certitude the dimensions of that automated strike zone.  (The result would probably be more walks at first, followed by a lot more offense as the pitchers are further forced to pitch in a concrete zone).

 

I think this would also have collateral effects on the diverse means to successfully getting a strike call, further standardizing a pitcher's skillset/repetiore/technique and a catcher's ability to effect the game.   Thus making the game boring and the players copies of each other. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by PseudoSABR

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

There's a human element that comes with a live umpire standing behind the catcher.

An automated strike zone wouldn't need to remove an umpire from behind home plate, or eliminate the need for the ump to call the balls and strikes.