Article: REPORT: Twins To Sign Jason Castro

[DaveW]

"Upside" catchers are not readily available inside or outside the organization. He'll likely be a wash offensively but a huge boon defensively relative to Suzuki. The upside will be seen on the pitching staff.

I get that he is better defensively then Zuke, but the problem with the starting pitching is outside of Santana and Berrios there aren't really any guys who can be anything more than backend filler at this stage. Pitch framing doesn't help when dudes are hitting the cover off the ball against you.

 

I just really don't like the 3 years aspect.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I get that he is better defensively then Zuke, but the problem with the starting pitching is outside of Santana and Berrios there aren't really any guys who can be anything more than backend filler at this stage. Pitch framing doesn't help when dudes are hitting the cover off the ball against you.

I just really don't like the 3 years aspect.

 

I would argue we don't know what our pitchers are capable of until we give them a better defensive catcher and defense behind them.  

 

You can't complain on one hand that the team isn't willing to make themselves better and then complain about the price to pay in FA.  

 

They acquired the best available catcher on the market.  Three years is nothing.  

[Mr. Brooks]

For a team that is clearly rebuilding is this smart to sign a catcher for this type of money over 3 years? Wouldn't you think Mitch Garver should be ready to take over in 2018 at least if not sooner?

Garver projects most likely as a decent backup catcher. Castro isn't blocking him from anything.

[beckmt]

Only question I have to  the move is whether there are other payroll cuts that have to be made.  If payroll is to remain where it is then what other moves have to be made, Dozier has to be traded, Santigo non tendered, Santana has to be traded .  Would like more background, since sources are saying Twins payroll will not be as much as $100 million and this move puts the Twins over.  Jury on the move straight up will depend on improvement of the pitching staff.

[jimmer]

 

I get that he is better defensively then Zuke, but the problem with the starting pitching is outside of Santana and Berrios there aren't really any guys who can be anything more than backend filler at this stage. Pitch framing doesn't help when dudes are hitting the cover off the ball against you.

I just really don't like the 3 years aspect.

Yeah, the Astros pitchers are much better.  They are around the plate more and while part of the reason they get more calls is Castro, the other is that they have a rep for consistently pitching well overall.

 

Castro has averaged 1.4 WAR over the last three years so, really, the price is fine if that's what we get. That's the going rate for that much WAR.  It's just that I doubt it's much of an improvement. 

 

P.S.  remember when we got Suzuki and everyone was talking abut how good of a defensive catcher he was?  That was fun.

Edited November 23, 2016 by jimmer

[TheLeviathan]

Look at it another way, we just swapped the arb. price of roster complicating Plouffe for a major upgrade at catcher.

 

Couldn't have dreamed it any better.

[Mr. Brooks]

I get that he is better defensively then Zuke, but the problem with the starting pitching is outside of Santana and Berrios there aren't really any guys who can be anything more than backend filler at this stage. Pitch framing doesn't help when dudes are hitting the cover off the ball against you.

 

I just really don't like the 3 years aspect.

One of the reasons why batters hit the cover off our pitchers is because they are always getting into good hitters counts.

The difference between 2-1 and 1-2 is huge in an at bat, and a great pitch framer can help with that.

[Brandon Warne]

 

They saw Garvers's D in the AFL and couldn't sign a catcher fast enough.

 

Berardino said he heard fairly good reports on him back there.

[DaveW]

Look at it another way, we just swapped the arb. price of roster complicating Plouffe for a major upgrade at catcher.

 

Couldn't have dreamed it any better.

Now if only we could do the same with the seemingly 9 DH's we have...

 

I'd just prefer we got someone better, that's all.

 

I'd upgrade the bullpen next.

Edited November 23, 2016 by DaveW

[PseudoSABR]

 

P.S.  remember when we got Suzuki and everyone was talking abut how good of a defensive catcher he was?  That was fun.

Others probably can speak better to the issue than I can,  but I believe the acceptance of pitcher framing has come a long way in that time.   Whether Castro's talents in "pitcher framing" prove more real than Suzuki's defense, I don't know--but I do believe there's more of statistical case for Castro.

[Mr. Brooks]

Now we're pushing the goal post back 3 more years? Really?? To answer your question: Yes, I, along with most people, expect this team to be contending in less than 3 years.

I like the signing, but yes I think we are absolutely at least 3 years away from competing.

Sure, any team can luck into a 2015 and play. 500 ball and stick around the 2nd wild card. But, 3 years minimum for division titles.

 

I don't think most people fully realize just how big of a mess Ryan left behind, organizationally.

The behind the scenes structure was stuck in the stone age, and that can't be fixed overnight.

This team lost over 100 games last year.

 

Loyal ownership groups don't fire a GM that has been part of the organization for 25 years because we are a tweak or two away.

 

In order to think we can be serious competitors in 2 years or less, you have to believe that Ryan's plan was working, and was just a year or two slow.

I for one don't believe that.

 

We have a few nice young pieces, but none have turned into stars yet, and the farm is just average. If Berrios or Buxton are a bust, and Sano is just good but not elite, then we could be in for a long, long rebuild.

[Tom Froemming]

My fear is as umpires start to pay more attention to this stuff and understand who the guys are with the reputations of being the best framers, they'll be more cognizant and shrink their zone for that catcher. It's sort of like when the batter has a reputation of having a good eye it seems sometimes they get calls just because the ump gives them the benefit of the doubt.

 

I've also wondered if framing skills carry over when a catcher switches teams. Isn't it possible Castro's numbers were so good because the Astros pitchers were really good at painting the black? Could it be some "stolen" strikes should be credited to the pitcher?

 

Either way, the Twins desperately needed a catcher, and there doesn't appear to be a long-term solution in house until maybe 19-year-old Ben Rortvedt is ready, and that's assuming he makes it. Both Murphy and Garver look like decent backups at best.

[wsnydes]

I'd just prefer we got someone better, that's all.

Such as? Not a great market, making trades very expensive.

[jimmer]

 

Now we're pushing the goal post back 3 more years? Really?? To answer your question: Yes, I, along with most people, expect this team to be contending in less than 3 years.

I think the people expecting that are being way too optimistic.

[wsnydes]

I think the people expecting that are being way too optimistic.

Depends on your definition of contending I suppose. I expect them to be relevant in 3 years, but not serious WS contenders. If they're relevant, playoff pushes should very reasonable at the end of that term. They may not make said playoffs, but they should be in contention late into the season. There's a lot of work to be done and it's not going to happen overnight. Edited November 23, 2016 by wsnydes

[Doomtints]

This will make him the #7 most highly paid catcher in the league.  Is he at that level?

 

His WAR ranks 23rd at the position.  This is a 0.5 improvement over Suzuki.

 

Of course, WAR does not measure pitch framing which appears to be the justification for this move.  He is ranked #5 for pitch framing, right below the Braves catcher.  How well did the Braves do last year?

Edited November 23, 2016 by Doomtints

[jimmer]

 

This will make him the #7 most highly paid catcher in the league.  Is he at that level?

16 out of 20 in WAR last year for catcher with 350 or more PAs.

[wsnydes]

This will make him the #7 most highly paid catcher in the league. Is he at that level?

Unfortunately, they get paid what the market dictates. Thin market drives up cost. That's why I feel such measuring sticks are silly.

[King]

 

Yeah, the Astros pitchers are much better.  They are around the plate more and while part of the reason they get more calls is Castro, the other is that they have a rep for consistently pitching well overall.

 

Castro has averaged 1.4 WAR over the last three years so, really, the price is fine if that's what we get. That's the going rate for that much WAR.  It's just that I doubt it's much of an improvement. 

 

P.S.  remember when we got Suzuki and everyone was talking abut how good of a defensive catcher he was?  That was fun.

 

You're ignoring pitch framing in your WAR calculations, for whatever reason.

[King]

 

16 out of 20 in WAR last year for catcher with 350 or more PAs.

And again.

[jimmer]

 

You're ignoring pitch framing in your WAR calculations, for whatever reason.

Because I take into account the idea that maybe some of the pitch framing credit Castro gets has to do with their pitching being much better than ours to begin with (before even taking into account framing) and that maybe some of the close calls credited to Castro have to do with their pitcher consistently hitting close enough to the zone  anyway.  Like I said, we'll see.

[jimmer]

 

And again.

Yeah, and how many things have you repeated about this trade on the three total threads started on this (some that have been locked or disappeared?)

 

I re-posted it (for the first time) because someone asked a question after saying he's now the 7th highest paid and wanted to know if he was worth it.  I stated a fact. People can discard the info if they feel like it.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by jimmer

[King]

 

Because I take into account the idea that maybe some of the pitch framing credit Castro gets has to do with their pitching being much better than ours to begin with (before even taking into account framing) and that maybe some of the close calls credited to Castro have to do with their pitcher consistently hitting close enough to the zone  anyway.  Like I said, we'll see.

The way you word this makes it seem like the Twins pitchers don't throw close pitches.. ever. A pitch on the outside corner, is a pitch on the outside corner.

 

Yeah, and how many things have you repeated about this trade on the three total threads started on this (some that have been locked or disappeared?)

 

I re-posted it (for the first time) because someone asked a question after saying he's now the 7th highest paid and wanted to know if he was worth it.  I stated a fact.

 

You keep stating his WAR without factoring in his pitch framing is factually incorrect, yes.

[jimmer]

 

The way you word this makes it seem like the Twins pitchers don't throw close pitches.. ever. A pitch on the outside corner, is a pitch on the outside corner.

 

 

You keep stating his WAR without factoring in his pitch framing is factually incorrect, yes.

As soon as you can say our pitching staff will benefit the same amount the Astros did (and tell me for sure it was all due to Castro), I will.  Right now you're assuming our pitching staff will get the same benefit and I have my doubts.  So I'm going by what we know he is for sure responsible solely for and hope that Castro makes out pitching staff looks like Houston's by his mere presence.

 

We got him for a good price.  He's an improvement.  I wonder how much.  We'll find out.

Edited November 23, 2016 by jimmer

[King]

 

As soon as you can say our pitching staff will benefit the same amount the Astros did (and tell me for sure it was all due to Castro), I will.  Right now you're assuming our pitching staff will get the same benefit and I have my doubts.  So I'm going by what we know he is for sure responsible solely for and hope that Castro makes out pitching staff looks like Houston's by his mere presence..

 

Pitch framing is a skill. Castro has the ability to turn close pitches that are balls into strikes. Suzuki did not have this ability (in fact, he was so bad that he turned close strikes into balls). I'm certain it will have a positive effect on the Twins pitching staff. It won't turn them into Houstons pitching staff magically (obviously), but it will have a positive effect.

[USAFChief]

What's not to like? They needed help at catcher. Castro was one of three realistic options, and that's if you include Ramos. He's not helpless against RH pitching and can be paired with a RH hitting mate, and you need two catchers anyway. He is by all accounts a good receiver. 3/$24.5 isn't a lot of money in this day and age.

 

Sheesh. Some of you are hard to please.

[TheLeviathan]

I couldn't care less about WAR for catchers.  

[Siehbiscuit]

I won't pretend to be smarter than anyone here, but not a single person has mentioned Catro's ability to call a game. Catchers are the quarterback, the point guard, the guy that needs to know what everyone's responsibility is AND know how to attack each batter. Mental aptitude or pitch calling isn't measured in WAR. So we need to stop using that as the baseline measure. He caught the 2015 Cy Young award winner. I'd like to think how preparation had something to do with that.

 

There's too many intangibles that you can't measure with catchers that provide value. I want a catcher than can put our pitchers in a better position, prior to the pitch during the pitch and then after the pitch. If he provides value with the bat, even better.

 

Our pitching staff needs someone that makes them better and I want to believe the framing skills and his bat vsRHP are not the only reason for 24 million deal.

[jimmer]

 

Pitch framing is a skill. Castro has the ability to turn close pitches that are balls into strikes. Suzuki did not have this ability (in fact, he was so bad that he turned close strikes into balls). I'm certain it will have a positive effect on the Twins pitching staff. It won't turn them into Houstons pitching staff magically (obviously), but it will have a positive effect.

Trying this again:

 

We got him for a good price.  He's an improvement.  I wonder how much.  We'll find out.

[DaveW]

Ramos would have been a much better choice imo