Article: Second-Guess Galore

[Mr. Brooks]

I have long felt Maddon was the most overrated manager in the game. It is my opinion that he does most every in-game move to try and outsmart the other manager. In my opinion he has made some really awful mistakes such as basically every pitching move to remove his starter in any game, his usage of Chapman, and his lineups.

 

Of course, I look at him as a smug jackass that thinks he is smarter than everyone so I am not unbiased and probably have an unwarranted vendetta against him.

 

I agree, the Cubs won in spite of him.

 

I went back and forth between who I was rooting for all series long. Every time they showed Lebron I rooted for the Cubs. Then they showed Bill Murray and I switched back to Cleveland.

 

And lastly, now that the Cubs have won they are no different than any other big market team that tries to buy championships every year. There is/was nothing lovable about this team.

 

I also think both Boston and Toronto would have beaten the Cubs in 6, but they could not touch the magic of the Indians.

You lost me when you brought up cheering against Bill Murray.

How could anyone not love Bill Murray?

[notoriousgod71]

 

You lost me when you brought up cheering against Bill Murray.
How could anyone not love Bill Murray?

 

I find him gratingly annoying and do not enjoy his brand of comedy. Plus, I do not care how some celebrity reacts to "their" team's performance. But that's just me.

[adorduan]

 

yeah, i dont know who 'we' would be in that sentence, but whomver it is who thought that certainly now knows no one is perfect.

Of course, one wonders if not for his managing all season and/or in the NLDS and NLCS, if they ever get to the World Series to begin with. A small sample size in a couple playoff games doesnt negate work done in 162 game season, for players or managers. I will go ahead and give him credit for them being able to win the World Series.

Sure, my post was a little bit of hyperbole, but there were a lot of people hyping Maddon to the max when there was a ever so slight possibility that he could have been the Twins manager.   As for the "work" of the 162 game season, the dude had it made. A loaded lineup, all 5 starting pitchers healthy all season.  They made 29,30,30,31 and 32 starts.  They traded for a great closer.  He didn't have much work to do.

[spinowner]

 

Didn't remind me of Gardy at all, first and foremost because I was watching a World Series not the ALDS :-)  

 

Francona is a better in-game tactician than Maddon.  The two best overall managers in the game squared off and Francona out-managed him; however, the better team won.  Even if Cleveland was fully loaded, I'm glad the best team in baseball won. They both deserved to win, but it's good to see the best team in baseball get rewarded for that awesome season..

 

Ironically, now that the Cubs won the W Series after 108 years, the team with the longest W Series title drought is now Cleveland Indians.

That's one of the reasons I was hoping Cleveland would win. Plus I guess I default to the AL if I don't have a horse in the race.

[spinowner]

 

Maybe we can get over the idea that Maddon is some all knowing guru who never makes mistakes.  The Cubs won despite his managing, not because of it.

But I'd still hire him over almost any other manager in the game.

[spinowner]

 

Personally, I think Francona made the bigger mistakes in game 7. The eventual winning run was an intentional walk! The last out was Michael Martinez with a career 37 OPS+. Kluber didn't strike out a single batter, struggled mightily in the fourth, yet came out to start the fifth. Bryan Shaw was hit hard but allowed to keep pitching with the game on the line (and given two extra baserunners by IBB to boot).

Regarding Martinez making the final out, there were no position players left on the bench to pinch hit. You can make the argument that he shouldn't have been in the game in the first place but there's no way to predict it would be his spot in the lineup that would be up at the end of the game.

[spinowner]

 

The worst decision in the series was pitching Chapman in game 6, imo. I understand why he did it, I would never have done it.

I also understand the argument that you have to be sure to win game 6 in order for there to even be a game 7, but I think the stronger argument is that you have to have a plan for game 7 in mind while you are managing game 6. It would be interesting to hear Maddon second guessing himself after he has time to process his decisions for a while.

Edited November 4, 2016 by spinowner

[twinssouth]

Cubs up 6 to 1,I believe, Hendrick narrowly missed a called strike, walks the batter and Maddon pulls him. I thought Maddon over managed that game. It didn't have to be that close. Maddon was lucky to win it, Cubs hitters bailed him out. They had 40 million viewers, most since 1991 game 7 that had 50 million, which to me is still most exciting game 7 of all time.

[David HK]

 

I agree that Maddon's bullpen moves in games 6 and 7 were illogical.

 

And my tricorder went haywire on that bunt attempt.

 

[DocBauer]

I didn't get to watch as much of the series as I would have liked, but I did try to follow it as well as I could before catching almost all of game 7. I do think there was some over management, but I think that happens a lot in the post season.

 

I was torn as I really like both teams, and have for years. But I had to root for the loveable losers in the end, and not just for family sake, lol. I mean, come on, 108 years since the last time? You'd have to almost have a heart of stone not to be happy for the Cubs and their fans.

 

I don't think pitching Chapman in game 6 was a mistake at all. As previously stated, there is no game 7 if you don't win game 6. But I do think it was a mistake to pitch him as long as Maddon did. And unless I'm missing something, I didn't understand not letting Lester pitch to the next batter with 2 outs and throwing well. Chapman may have still imploded and allowed that 2 run Homer, but then again, with all the work he had in game 6, maybe he has a little extra if he doesn't come in for that 3rd out an inning before.

 

But the biggest goof of the entire series was not to have Charlie "Wild Thing" Sheen not throw out a first pitch. Would have been EPIC!

[Otto von Ballpark]

Regarding Martinez making the final out, there were no position players left on the bench to pinch hit. You can make the argument that he shouldn't have been in the game in the first place but there's no way to predict it would be his spot in the lineup that would be up at the end of the game.

Martinez was brought into a tie game for a trivial upgrade defensively over Coco Crisp, when Francona knew that Martinez was his last bench player. That was silly. The Indians still needed to score to win, and putting Martinez in the lineup hurt that chance far more than he upgraded the defense over Crisp.

Edited November 4, 2016 by spycake

[jimmer]

I also understand the argument that you have to be sure to win game 6 in order for there to even be a game 7, but I think the stronger argument is that you have to have a plan for game 7 in mind while you are managing game 6. It would be interesting to hear Maddon second guessing himself after he has time to process his decisions for a while.

maddon already admitted he should have had someone warming up in the 8th inning of game 6 to use in the 9th inning.

[jimmer]

That's one of the reasons I was hoping Cleveland would win. Plus I guess I default to the AL if I don't have a horse in the race.

I'm not sure I get what you mean? What about my post you were responding to gives a reason for wanting Cleveland to win?

[Mike Sixel]

 

Martinez was brought into a tie game for a trivial upgrade defensively over Coco Crisp, when Francona knew that Martinez was his last bench player. That was silly. The Indians still needed to score to win, and putting Martinez in the lineup hurt that chance far more than he upgraded the defense over Crisp.

 

I agree with this, that was probably the worst move of the night.

[Loosey]

Really of all the moves Maddon made the only one I would 2nd guess is Chapman's usage in game 6.  

 

Pulling Hendrick makes sense if he has a gut feeling that he could implode at any moment.  (I know a bad call against a Twins pitcher in a key situation usually resulted in the next hitter immediately hitting a bomb).  So moving from Hendrick to Lester was alright in my mind.  Then an errant throw and a fluky 2 run wild pitch.  

 

The safety squeeze call was actually a good one in my opinion.  Baez seems to have that Buxton quality of chasing strike three breaking balls out of the zone and getting him to square up at least sets him up to hopefully putting ball into play.  It just didn't work. 

[spinowner]

 

I'm not sure I get what you mean? What about my post you were responding to gives a reason for wanting Cleveland to win?

The very last part, about Cleveland having the second-longest drought (and the longest drought in the AL). My apologies for not being more clear.

[jimmer]

 

The very last part, about Cleveland having the second-longest drought (and the longest drought in the AL). My apologies for not being more clear.

no apology needed.  I just couldn't see the correlation.  Thanks for explaining it.

[Sarah]

I agree with what you have said about game six, I don't think it was a mistake to use Chapman in that game because of what you said - this was just game six. Who knows, game seven the next day could have gotten rained out. I get your point about Hendricks going through the order for the third time but I still don't understand that move - he was dominating, he was on regular rest and he took him out to bring in a starting pitcher who is on short rest. Also, I thought it was entertaining how the announcers were saying that Maddon had told them before the game he didn't want to bring in Lester in the middle of an inning...and then he brought him in the middle of an inning. I was wondering if Maddon had intentionally said that - I always love it when they ask managers what their strategy is going to be before the game. Yeah, like he's going to tell the entire viewing audience. 

 

A lot has been written about how the Cubs won the World Series but the Indians did also blow a 3-1 series lead and they had the last two games at home. But given the state of their pitching (heck, they didn't even really have a starting pitcher for one of their playoff games) I guess it wasn't too surprising. In this era in baseball I didn't really expect Kluber to be able to pitch effectively three times in a seven game series. 

 

Yeah, I'm biased because I'm a Twins fan and I still think game seven in 1991 was the ultimate but game seven this year was almost as epic. Maybe this is elementary but it reminded how much the game is the same whether you're watching a town ball game or extra innings in the seventh game of the World Series. When Edwards walked the batter in the bottom of the 10th to bring the tying run to the plate I thought how irritating it is when a pitcher starts walking guys to bring the tying run to the plate! What a great World Series.