Article: Falvey, Levine Well-Suited To Solve Roster Riddles

[Old Twins Cap]

No one ever says it, but at some point, we have to consider trading Sano.

 

Why?

 

He took a step back last year, and his natural position is going to be 1B, where Twins have a monster logjam.

 

Head case?  Fielding liability?  Strike-out percentage?  Clubhouse cancer?

 

Everybody talks about his high ceiling, but what if there is no helium in the Sano balloon? 

 

Kid had a movie made about him at 16.  That could be peaking early, or really, peaking prematurely.  Will make last out of game at 3B, miss cutoff men, and generally look confused.

[Teflon]

Finding pitchers who can put up Ks will help the defense immediately. Simple equation - for every nine putouts Dodger fielders had to make, Twins fielders had to make ten. Even if the Twins got to the same number of balls as the Dodgers fielders and fielded at the same level of competency, they were still destined to make ten percent more errors.

 

Now, put a bad fielding Twins defense on the field with a pitching staff that requires you to make ten percent more plays and you get the 2016 Twins. And the GM that thought that would work gets fired.

[gunnarthor]

 

Schwarber had played OF before. If the twins were considering it, why did sano never play there in the minors? That's my main issue, they did not best set him up for success, imo.

 

The reason they didn't play him in the OF in the minors was because he missed the entire 2014 season and his bat was ML ready by mid-2015.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here.  My point is that both players were unproven in the OF.  Their bats warranted a shot.  If Sano is more athletic than Schwaber, especially if Sano lost 30 lbs, why should Sano to the OF be dismissed because he is bigger?   I think Jimmer hit the nail on the head.  Their execution sucked but his size was not the problem.

 

i don't remember the context in which I commented on Schwarber so I apologize if I derailed another discussion you were having. The Cubs played the odds with Schwarber in left throughout 2015 and it all caught up with them in the postseason.

[DJSim22]

 

Schwarber had played OF before. If the twins were considering it, why did sano never play there in the minors? That's my main issue, they did not best set him up for success, imo.

As for now? I try him at third for the first two months. If it doesn't look real, I either move him to DH full time, or part time with a bit of first sprinkled in.

BINGO!  We've seen all kinds of prospects play multiple positions in the minors, why wasn't Sano in RF 25 games or more a year then?  Because Terry made a stupid signing and painted himself into a corner. 

[DJSim22]

 

 

No one ever says it, but at some point, we have to consider trading Sano.

 

Why?

 

He took a step back last year, and his natural position is going to be 1B, where Twins have a monster logjam.

 

Head case?  Fielding liability?  Strike-out percentage?  Clubhouse cancer?

 

Everybody talks about his high ceiling, but what if there is no helium in the Sano balloon? 

 

Kid had a movie made about him at 16.  That could be peaking early, or really, peaking prematurely.  Will make last out of game at 3B, miss cutoff men, and generally look confused.

Could you expand on the clubhouse cancer comment?  I'm not remembering him being a lockerroom problem, but I am getting older and more forgetful.

[Major League Ready]

 

i don't remember the context in which I commented on Schwarber so I apologize if I derailed another discussion you were having. The Cubs played the odds with Schwarber in left throughout 2015 and it all caught up with them in the postseason.

 

i don't remember the context in which I commented on Schwarber so I apologize if I derailed another discussion you were having. The Cubs played the odds with Schwarber in left throughout 2015 and it all caught up with them in the postseason.

No problem.  The only point was that many summarily dismissed Sano and this experiment because he was 270 lbs.  I used Schwaber as an example for a couple reasons.  One, Maddon is highly regarded. Two, Schwaber, while not completely untested, was far from proven.   Point being , Sano is faster even at 270 than Schwaber so why was the Schwaber experiment OK and the Sano experiment not worthy of the experiment.  As I said from the beginning, I thought they should have just put him at 3B and rode it out but I was ok with the experiment in a season that never had a chance from day 1. 

 

The thing that really floors me is that so many people said he could not play there because he weighed 270 lbs. as if there was no correcting the problem.  He is 270 because you can get away with being out of shape in baseball.  I will be thrilled if he shows up in great shape not just for the obvious reasons but it would also suggest a higher level of commitment.  Koske went from being a bad 3B defensively to quite good with determination and commitment.  Would love to see that from Sano.

 

BTW ... I agree with Mike.  The execution still sucked.  That's where the criticism belongs IMO but Sano's size, given his athleticism should not have been an issue.  It appeared the experiment was condemned because guys his size are generally far to slow to play the position.  While this is true, it's pretty backward logic when he had already demonstrated significantly better speed than others who have played the position. 

[mikelink45]

 

The new FO has to worry about things like attendance as well as how ownership looks.  If they bench Mauer, a lot of casual fans won't be as interested and benching him suggests ownership wasted 40m+ dollars.  I doubt the FO is going to make those kind of moves early in their run when they have other things to focus on.  And, as bad as Mauer was, he wasn't a complete black hole and it's a pretty open question if Vargas would be better. 

My concern is that the attendance is in the tank and will drop off the cliff unless there is some excitement generated.  The casual drop in fan is not going to pay the bills anymore.   I understand Mauer still has name recognition, but maybe they can just have some Mauer Chevrolet sales after the game because Mauer on first is at best a filler.  He is not going to cause us to lose, but he is not going to push us to win. 

[Shaitan]

 

He took a step back last year, and his natural position is going to be 1B, where Twins have a monster logjam.

 

A logjam of mediocrity. 

[Target Field of Dreams]

Winning games by putting the best team on the field will fill seats. This team is doomed if new management decides to construct the roster by playing badly declining hometown heroes every day when the fact of the matter is the team is better by playing someone else. They need to make decisions based upon current talent and future potential alone.

[Doomtints]

 

Winning games by putting the best team on the field will fill seats. This team is doomed if new management decides to construct the roster by playing badly declining hometown heroes every day when the fact of the matter is the team is better by playing someone else. They need to make decisions based upon current talent and future potential alone.

 

There is really only one position player (or everyday player) that fits this definition, and every fan seems to understand that the Mauer issue is unsolvable.  I would be surprised if any fan ever says, "Yeah, I'm not going to the ball park today.  They have Joe Mauer out there, and that's intolerable."

 

The real problem is the pitching, and people will stop showing up to games if pitching remains this bad.  

[Target Field of Dreams]

 

There is really only one position player (or everyday player) that fits this definition, and every fan seems to understand that the Mauer issue is unsolvable.  I would be surprised if any fan ever says, "Yeah, I'm not going to the ball park today.  They have Joe Mauer out there, and that's intolerable."

 

The real problem is the pitching, and people will stop showing up to games if pitching remains this bad.  

 

I totally agree with this and I think you missed my point. I was not arguing that fans decide not to come to games because Mauer is playing 1st. My post was in response to someone else's that said that the Twins can't bench Mauer or change his role on the team because fans will not come then.

 

My point was exactly the same as yours.A winning team gets fans back in the stadium in every case. This team gets there by vastly improved pitching, but also by giving no free passes to position players simply based upon their contract or past success. If moving Mauer or any other player on the roster to a reserve role improves the team, then new management can't be afraid to do just that.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Target Field of Dreams

[Doomtints]

 

I totally agree with this. My post was in response to someone else's that said that the Twins can't bench Mauer or change his role on the team because fans will not come then. I think a winning team gets fans back in the stadium in every case. This team gets there by vastly improved pitching, but also by giving no free passes to position players simply based upon their contract or past success

 

Right.  I think any front office in its right mind paces Mauer so he has 5 days off a month, minimum.  With that type of workload he may make it through the year and be productive.  

[DJL44]

I think the defensive upgrade has to start behind the plate. There is an opening and a defense-first catcher makes lots of sense, especially if Garver is the backup.

 

I don't think Sano is good enough defensively to play anywhere but 1B so giving him starts there when there is a LHP and benching Mauer makes sense. Other days he is the DH. Playing him at 3B is nearly as bad as playing him in RF.

 

Trading Dozier is a move that makes sense considering the current state of the team. Polanco moves to 2B - a position he is better equipped to handle defensively. Find an upgrade at SS defensively or just play the adequate Eduardo Escobar there until Gordon is ready.

 

I agree that Rosario, Kepler and Buxton could be good defensively in the outfield. Adding a good defensive 4th outfielder instead of Danny Santana would be helpful also.

 

[dxpavelka]

 

So, are you saying that Sano was no athletic enough to play the position.  Nobody though tit was insane to suggest Plouffe or Mauer in the outfield.  Sano at 270 is far more athletic than Plouffe and quite a bit faster than Mauer.  He certainly is faster and more athletic than alot of guys that played the position because of their bat.  Point is that size is not nearly as relevant a question as does he have the athleticism to play OF. 

 

He failed because he could not make the adaption.  Size was not the primary problem.  Also, to focus on the fact that he was 270lbs has to be the worst assessment of the core problem I have ever seen on this site.  How much problem solving skill does it take to recognize he is 30 lbs over weight.  I think a better assessment of the problem was that he should lose 30 lbs, not that he cant play the position because he weighs 270. 

Bottom line:  It was stupid to take a guy who you are counting on to be the offensive cornerstone of your franchise for the next 15 years and move him to a position he'd never played.  And to have his only preparation for such a move being "go learn it in the offseason."  The fact that we're talking about a young Latin American ball player who already spends much of everyday life in the big leagues dealing with unfamiliarity only compounds the error.  You either make the kid a DH or you leave him at the position he's played for most of his minor league career, where HE is comfortable, happy, enjoys and takes pride in playing.  You leave him there for 3-5 years and see how he develops.  If you're not satisfied you eventually move him to the other corner of the diamond and after that to DH.  You can rationalize and assess the situation all you want.  At the end of the day it was a dumb move.  End of story.  Move on and hope like hell the new front office is a little smarter than the previous one.

[DocBauer]

I have no problem moving Sano to 1B...eventually. But to echo others, you have to let him play 3B, at least for a time, to get comfortable and further develop before you will know whether he can hack the position or not, and how well. I say yet again, look back at guys like Gatti and Koski when they first came up and it took a while to develop in to the players they became.

 

Sano doesn't have to be Gold Glove 3B, just a solid one.

[DJL44]

They have let Sano play at 3B. He's bad. He makes a ton of errors, more than any other 3B by rate in 2016. If he cleaned that up he could be below average but it will take a LOT of fielding reps.

[KGB]

Bottom line:  It was stupid to take a guy who you are counting on to be the offensive cornerstone of your franchise for the next 15 years and move him to a position he'd never played.  And to have his only preparation for such a move being "go learn it in the offseason."  The fact that we're talking about a young Latin American ball player who already spends much of everyday life in the big leagues dealing with unfamiliarity only compounds the error.  You either make the kid a DH or you leave him at the position he's played for most of his minor league career, where HE is comfortable, happy, enjoys and takes pride in playing.  You leave him there for 3-5 years and see how he develops.  If you're not satisfied you eventually move him to the other corner of the diamond and after that to DH.  You can rationalize and assess the situation all you want.  At the end of the day it was a dumb move.  End of story.  Move on and hope like hell the new front office is a little smarter than the previous one.

Just look at the set back it was to Miguel Cabrera's career when the moved him to the outfield to start his career. Bottom line - no matter where Sano plays, he is a bad fielder. It's his bat they need in the lineup.

Edited October 31, 2016 by KGB

[jay]

Bottom line: It was stupid to take a guy who you are counting on to be the offensive cornerstone of your franchise for the next 15 years and move him to a position he'd never played. And to have his only preparation for such a move being "go learn it in the offseason." The fact that we're talking about a young Latin American ball player who already spends much of everyday life in the big leagues dealing with unfamiliarity only compounds the error. You either make the kid a DH or you leave him at the position he's played for most of his minor league career, where HE is comfortable, happy, enjoys and takes pride in playing. You leave him there for 3-5 years and see how he develops. If you're not satisfied you eventually move him to the other corner of the diamond and after that to DH. You can rationalize and assess the situation all you want. At the end of the day it was a dumb move. End of story. Move on and hope like hell the new front office is a little smarter than the previous one.

For being such a stupid, dumb move... how does it compare to starting Carlos Santana in LF during the WORLD SERIES when he has never started a game in the OF before?

 

Never mind a full offseason and spring training to get ready. If Santana is 5'11", 210 as listed, then I'd be listed at something like 5'11", 105.

 

It didn't work out, but it wasn't nearly as terrible of a move as many here try to make it out to be...

[jay]

And please don't say "but it's just 2 games". If it's okay for a HoF manager and widely praised front office to let Carlos Santana start ANY games in the OF with zero experience during the World Series, it can't be that bad to give a younger player with more athleticism months to practice and give it a try.

[Doomtints]

 

And please don't say "but it's just 2 games". If it's okay for a HoF manager and widely praised front office to let Carlos Santana start ANY games in the OF with zero experience during the World Series, it can't be that bad to give a younger player with more athleticism months to practice and give it a try.

 

Absolutely.  There has been an overreaction to Sano's OF experiment.  We'll probably hear about it for years, even after those responsible are long gone.

 

Regardless of where Sano plays, someone really needs to sit down with him and find him a glove that fits his hand.  MLB rules regarding glove sizes only concern the webbing and finger length, not where it sits on the wrist, palm, and hand.  That comically small glove that sits 1-3 inches off his palms has to go. 

Also, the Cubs have this youngin named Kris Bryant.  He is their everyday 3B and he is terrible out there.  He plays in the OF too, but he is equally terrible out there (and dangerous -- he collides with people).  I have yet to hear a Cubs fan go on and on about "Bryant in the outfield", this in spite of Bryant probably being a better 3B defender than Sano will ever be which makes the time he spends in the OF even more pointless.  How many games did Bryant play in the OF in the minors?  Just like Sano -- 0.  

Edited October 31, 2016 by Doomtints

[jimmer]

Kris Bryant has been a quality defender everywhere they have put him.

 

He is an example of an athletic person whose athleticism actually shows up in the field, as opposed to a person who has his athleticism raved about but cant play defense.

Edited October 31, 2016 by jimmer

[Doomtints]

 

Kris Bryant has been a quality defender everywhere they have put him.

He is an example of an athletic person whose athleticism actually shows up in the field, as opposed to a person who has his athleticism raved about but cant play defense.

 

You are probably looking at advanced metrics rather than watching him play.

 

When it comes to the prejudice against Sano's defense, most Twins fans in the "Sano should have never been in the outfield" camp are ignoring advanced metrics (which show he was 'mostly harmless' out there) and using the eyeball test.

 

Use that same eyeball test on Bryant and you'll change your mind about his defense.  Mentioning Bryant's defense to a Cubs fan brings up immediate laughter.  Cubs fans are afraid of the idea of Bryant playing 1B, which is considered the easiest position to play.  Nevertheless, Cubs fans don't complain about the time he spends in the OF -- they realize that no matter where he plays he is a liability.

 

Did you happen to catch game 4?  I'm guessing not.  Take a look at the box score.  Look at his postseason defensive metrics on mlb.com -- he is the worst defender this postseason.  

Edited October 31, 2016 by Doomtints

[jimmer]

You are probably looking at advanced metrics rather than watching him play.

 

When it comes to the prejudice against Sano's defense, most Twins fans are ignoring advanced metrics and using the eyeball test.

 

Use that same eyeball test on Bryant and you'll change your mind about his defense. Mentioning Bryant's defense to a Cubs fan brings up immediate laughter. Cubs fans are afraid of the idea of Bryant playing 1B, which is considered the easiest position to play. Nevertheless, Cubs fans don't complain about the time he spends in the OF -- they realize that no matter where he plays he is a liability.

 

Did you happen to catch game 4? I'm guessing not. Take a look at the box score. Look at his postseason defensive metrics on mlb.com -- he is the worst defender this postseason.

i have watched him play a lot AND by looking at his advanced metrics, they match what my eyes have seen. I see A very good defender having a poor defensive offseason (of which i have watched every game), which many of my friends who are cubs fans, including one of my best friends, also say.

 

Bte, sano is horrible with DRS and is negative at UZR. The eyes say the same as the metrics.

Edited October 31, 2016 by jimmer

[TheLeviathan]

 

For being such a stupid, dumb move... how does it compare to starting Carlos Santana in LF during the WORLD SERIES when he has never started a game in the OF before?

Never mind a full offseason and spring training to get ready. If Santana is 5'11", 210 as listed, then I'd be listed at something like 5'11", 105.

It didn't work out, but it wasn't nearly as terrible of a move as many here try to make it out to be...

 

It was stupid.  Now, the bigger issue is the lack of a DH and how that rule needs to change, but it's still dumb.

 

You don't take someone and play them where they are not comfortable and get anything less than awful defense.  Santana gave them awful defense.  The two games matter because they got lucky that nothing was hit at him to expose how awful he was at the position.  In a larger sample, like the idiocy that was the Sano move, you got to see how that plays out.

 

It was dumb of the Indians to do, but it was forced by an antiquated rule that needs changing.

[jimmer]

Exactly. Santana was arguably their best offensive weapon during the season, but he is a DH. Their choice was sit him for a couple games, or have him play OF and take their chances. Thats different than Francona saying at the beginning of the season 'lets make Santana our permanent LF.' when the DH option is there.

Edited October 31, 2016 by jimmer

[TheLeviathan]

I seriously can't wrap my head around the idea that several posters seem to think this argument makes sense:

 

"Carlos Santana in LF worked for two games so it must be a great idea to move Sano permanently!"

 

I mean, good lord.  Think about that for a half second.

[jimmer]

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20160717/sports/160719177/

 

"He's probably gone from a 45 to a 55 defender over the past year. Maybe even a 60 defender. He's really gotten that good," Maddon said. "He's an above-average right fielder, left fielder, third baseman.'

 

http://www.cubsrelated.com/2016/05/kris-bryant-20-now-featuring-elite.html

 

'Now we're into 2016 and Cubs fans are loving what they've seen from the new evolution of Kris Bryant, a versatile multi-positional athlete who runs hard and fast, bashes baseballs, takes walks...

...and plays truly elite defense?  Yeah'

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/kris-bryant-might-be-the-best-all-around-player-in-the-nl/

 

'Bryant’s unlikely to be as valuable defensively going forward as his current UZR suggests, but with 2,300 innings of very positive data and a lot of other markers that suggest Bryant utilizes his athleticism in exceptional ways, it seems likely that he’s at least an above average defender.'

 

http://thecomeback.com/theoutsidecorner/2016-articles/kris-bryant-becoming-elite-defender.html

 

'In Bryant’s case, though, it’s becoming evident that we’re seeing enough to declare this guy a very good, if not potentially elite (someday), defensive player.'

 

Edited November 1, 2016 by jimmer

[jay]

I seriously can't wrap my head around the idea that several posters seem to think this argument makes sense:

 

"Carlos Santana in LF worked for two games so it must be a great idea to move Sano permanently!"

 

I mean, good lord. Think about that for a half second.

That's certainly not what my post said. It actually seems harder to wrap my head around the intensity of vitriol over sticking a guy in RF.

 

The Sano move seems to be most commonly criticized based on his size and lack of experience. The Santana example, with the added context of the World Series, is just another to show that maybe it wasn't that big of a deal. Not that it was a "great idea".

[TheLeviathan]

If you think the Indians doing that for two games as a patch is anything like a full blown position change, than I think we've found the problem.