Article: Discussing Domestic Abuse

[ThejacKmp]

 

I'd just like to add to your statement that it's not just about women.  Children are abused, men are abused, anyone can be abused for a variety of reasons - anger and the lack of being able to control it being one of them.  I know that the focus here is geared more towards women, but they're only part of the broader issue.

 

Yeah, I felt weird making things gendered as I wrote them but it's so awkward to always have "he or she" and "him or her" throughout. And the vast majority of abuse is female on male so I went with it but still didn't feel good.

 

Excellent and needed aside.

[wsnydes]

 

Couldn't disagree more. We always need to listen to the victim and take it into consideration. If the DA just pursues a case without the consent of the victim and without talking to them, he or she hurts that victim all over again. Whether it’s losing a home because the family loses an income, having to get a second job and not see their kids or dealing with shunning in the community from people who downplay the incident and play the blame game, these consequences are real. We should take the victim’s preferences into consideration (obviously some concept of the egregiousness and violence of the crime plays a role but most cases fall into a gray zone).

 

That’s really why we need something between “Your partner is going to jail” and “Your partners is coming home to probably abuse you again.” Something that involves access to resources to prevent further recurrences or help to gain independence without going under.

 

Vanimal quoted this article, a must-read when thinking about this issue.

I didn't say to ignore the victim completely.  Most of the time, their cooperation is going to be key to forming a case anyway.  I might be able to agree if it's a first time occurrence for the abuser, but if it's a reoccurring thing that could even span multiple people/partners, I couldn't disagree with you more.  Those people need to be dealt with.  That's an established behavior, not some one off instance.  If there are kids involved, abused or not, being hospitalized and/or beaten nearly to death doesn't do them any favors either.

 

Frankly, if I have a choice between being beaten or finding a second job or whatever, I'm finding that second job or whatever.  I don't deserve to be beaten, I don't deserve to be battered and bruised, I don't deserve to live a life like that.  It may be hard, but I'm better off.  Nobody deserves to be treated like that.  That's the message that needs to get through to both the victim and the abuser.  Nobody deserves to be treated like that.  Obviously, what they do is ultimately their choice.  I agree completely that there should be an option between "partner going to jail" and "partner coming home to abuse again".  There are options, they may not be as prevalent as they need to be everywhere, but there are options.  HitInAPinch has touched on at least one.  Could there be more and better options out there?  Sure, and there's no reason that further options shouldn't be sought.

[Mr. Brooks]

Everyone gets bored. Most people don't react by smoking crack. But some do. That doesn't mean that boredom isn't a reason some people get into smoking crack.

 

I just feel sad if you think people can't be rehabilitated. And scared - I feel like a lot of the problems we have in the world are because people think that other people are broken and thus not as human (not saying that's you, just that it's the same mindset). And I think a lot of abusers don't see women as property - I think they're scared of women having independence, cheating on them, not needing them etc. I don't think it's dismissive-based, I think it's fear-based.

 

That said, you have an excellent point about our punishment system being geared towards useless punishment and not towards rehabilitation, though I think you're being wildly optimistic that juvenile programs are markedly different. I think the only real difference is that we erase a juvenile record at 18 so their blemishes don't carry over to the work force. We have a lot of problems in this country but perhaps the biggest is changing our concept of prison.

 

Go Twins! Go Mauer (I feel very confident we won't hear any Kirby Puckett-esque stories about Mauer down the line.)

I guess I don't understand why a person would fear those things (independence, not needing them) unless it's because they look at that person as their property.

 

If you view your SO as an equal person, those are attributes you actually seek out.

 

I've witnessed a lot of men who are extremely verbally abusive towards their wife/girlfriend and they had a lot of variables. But the one thing that they always had in common, every time, was that the abuser spoke to and about the victim as though they viewed them as property.

 

So yeah that is anecdotal, but that is what I've witnessed so that is why I've formed the opinions that I have.

 

The reason I translate that into thinking they can't (most of the time) be rehabilitated is because if you view something as your property, you are never going to have empathy towards them, never.

 

As, I said before, they may "fake it", because they don't want to get into trouble, or because they don't want friends or family to know about it, or whatever the reason. But I'm not sure empathy is something that can be taught to an adult. You either have it or you don't.

 

Regarding the juvenile justice system, I should have been more specific. Their credence is rehabilitation over punishment, though you are right that isn't always the case in practice.

[laloesch]

 

I think you misunderstood what I mean by black and white. Or perhaps you didn’t read it – I suspect the latter is true since you’re indicating that I was talking about right and wrong in reference to abuser and victim. That’s nowhere near what I was saying. Let me try again.
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DUIs are pretty straightforward crimes. A person drives with too much alcohol and is busted by the cops. There are field sobriety tests and physical evidence (blood or a breathalyzer number). Society has a clear and reasoned set of punishments – you drank and drove so you lose your license; you owe a fine and have to take a drunk driving education course; your insurance rates go up. There’s no need to convince the passenger in the car or the passenger in another car nearby to testify against the perpetrator. The crime itself is pretty straightforward, as are the punishments.

 

Domestic violence (DV) is a whole different story. There is evidence but the officer in charge of prosecuting didn’t gather that evidence and has to navigate often conflicting stories (see Solo, Hope) to try to guess the truth. The officer also needs to convince the victim to testify in court, often against his or her own self-interest. Families face financial hardships that often include eviction if the perpetrator of DV goes to jail. This isn’t to mention that they have to look a loved one in the eye months after the incident and send them to jail. That’s a much harder thing to do and it becomes even harder since unlike with DUIs, the punishments for DV don’t really provide much of a solution or rational punishment. Time in jail is unlikely to correct abusive behavior and punishes the victims of DV right alongside their victimizers.

 

For that reason, the NFL/MLB/NBA etc. tendency to punish crimes with big splashy suspensions is even more misguided for DV than it is for DUIs. It’s just another version of ignoring the basic issues behind it.
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Hopefully that clarified this a bit more. A few more things that struck me from your response:

 

1) Ummm, it’s not the players union stopping punishment, it’s the league only caring when it became a big deal in the papers that delayed punishment. In fact, the players unions basically rolled over in the PA and Ray Rice cases because of PR issues as well. If the union is against things, it’s because owners are taking player paychecks and the basic function of a union is to protect member ages. I can’t see any player’s union being opposed to real solutions like treatment and counseling/support.

 

2) Really disagree about the restraining orders. The point isn’t how easy it is to get a restraining order, it’s how easy is it to enforce that restraining order. Real heartless victimizers aren’t often deterred by a piece of paper. And that also ignores people who have children and need a partner to help with childcare, bills and other household duties. A restraining order doesn’t solve that problem.

 

3) I’m not sure where you got that police dispatchers #1 most common call is domestic violence. I found nothing stating that. Source? 

 

4) Similarly, not sure where you’re getting that the most common court cases are domestic abuse or that shows that indicate domestic abuse is rarely prosecuted are wrong. The stats I saw said 8 out of 10 never result in charges being filed, let alone successfully pursued.

 

5) Not disagreeing with you about the “it takes two to tango” aspect to some domestic abuse but (like you) I feel the need to strongly assert that verbal arguing and physical violence are two very different things. We should never diminish the horridness of slamming someone’s head of the wall by saying, “well but she was always fighting with him about things and was the one who started the argument.” Screaming and yelling isn’t health and productive but it also isn’t anything near physical violence. With that caveat noted, that cyclical thing is a real thing and is another reason that the blanket suspension/release is a terrible real-world solution. Intervention is needed, not blind mandated punishment.

 

Thoughts?

 

No.... i understand your post quite well and read the entirety of it.  Much of what you are stating is contradictory and there are plenty of inaccuracies and generalizations backed up by nothing.  

 

First of all police do not prosecute ANYTHING.  They enforce the law and make arrests based on laws broken.  The judicial system prosecutes broken laws whether it's criminal or civil.

 

Domestic violence IS a straight forward crime like DUI's, murder, etc in the eyes of the law. There are clear laws on the books AND criminal penalties for such acts.  HOWEVER, in the case of domestic abuse (unless it's made in public in front of witnesses), it's up to the victim (in most cases and most states) to press forward with charges and provide timely proof of the act.  Now some may see this as an unreasonable expectation, but the law is written this way to protect the innocent until proven guilty.  Without it you have vengeance not justice.  Remember, innocent until proven guilty.    

 

And what do you mean DV punishments aren't really a solution?  Without laws enforced by punishment we have anarchy as a society.  On a side note, I realllllyyyy don't understand people who object to capital punishment for serial murderers and people who commit barbaric heinous crimes.  You are enabling their behavior because the penalties are not stiff enough. 

 

Jail time plus court ordered counseling is very common for such cases that are prosecuted.  You obviously haven't been to a court room recently. Counseling is a legitimate treatment method, but obviously not everyone can be cured in every situation and it's not enough in many scenarios.  It's also an impossible expectation for the state to cure all of these cases.  If there are better solutions by all means state them here.  

 

#1  Don't act like the player's union has no blame here.  For years if the league even hinted at toughening up on them regarding drug testing or labor conditions Ken Moffett and Donald Fehr had those guys threatening to strike.  They are just as to blame as the owners themselves.  But that's irrelevant.  The league has to choose like any employer what is except able conduct on and off the diamond.  If they are stupid like the NFL was with Ray Rice (what he did was absolutely appalling and disgusting), then they will suffer the consequences at the box office. My opinion, he should have been suspended without pay for at least a year as a minimum.  In fact given the presence of such damning video evidence i would given him a multi year ban.    

 

#2 Actually a "heartless victimize" who violates a restraining order will be found in contempt of court and thrown in jail immediately for such acts.  And when a judge issues a restraining ordering is also respects the victims children too.  Not sure of your logic here.

 

#3 Look harder.  DV is the #1 police dispatch call. 

 

#4 What stats say 8 out of 10 never result in charges being filed?  Please provide sources saying so.  I think you meant to say 8 out of 10 charges filed were not prosecuted because the victim either failed to press charges or the perpetrator made a plea bargain in court with the prosecution.

 

Who ever said that verbal and physical violence are not two different things?  Now you are really getting lost in the weeds on this one.  I don't think ANYONE here is arguing that "slamming someone's head off the wall" is justified because she was screaming at her significant other.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2016 by laloesch

[Steve Lein]

"Kirby Puckett was my last hero. I find it now important to separate what happens on the field of play and the person, even if that person is someone who does so much good in the community or owns a Roberto Clemente Award for community service."

 

This paragraph is the clearest thing to me about pro athletes. It wasn't Kirby who taught me to do this necessarily, but this is absolutely how I treat players of professional sports. Most of the time when I talk about them here in forums, what I am saying is a reflection of how they have done on the physical surface the game is played. Any comment for something outside the game or them personally will be framed in that context.

 

Another example for me is Randy Moss. LOVED him as a Wide Receiver/NFL player on my TV for the Vikings. Most exciting player in a long time to come to the NFL, was so fun to watch. But he was an absolute jerk off the field in his time(s) in Minnesota. 

 

If I ever have kids, this is what I'll teach them about professional athletes: Love the players for how they play the game and what they can teach you or inspire you about the game. Look anywhere else for people to look up to about anything else in life.

[Vanimal46]

 

Another example for me is Randy Moss. LOVED him as a Wide Receiver/NFL player on my TV for the Vikings. Most exciting player in a long time to come to the NFL, was so fun to watch. But he was an absolute jerk off the field in his time(s) in Minnesota. 

 

If I ever have kids, this is what I'll teach them about professional athletes: Love the players for how they play the game and what they can teach you or inspire you about the game. Look anywhere else for people to look up to about anything else in life.

Kids are going to look up to athletes when they're young... And once they grow up like us, it'll switch to a professional mentor/parent/family member or a friend. As long as you're there as a parent and teach them those life lessons when they learn their idol may be a bad person, that's all that matters.  

 

You bring up a good alternative to justify watching certain players on our favorite teams - separating what they do on the field, and off the field. I also like Mike's approach of cheering for the uniform, not the players wearing the uniform. I've used both tactics to keep my sanity as a Vikings fan. Especially when there are current and former Vikings players who I will never forgive their actions off the football field. 

Edited October 26, 2016 by Vanimal46

[diehardtwinsfan]

Hunter Smith (former punter for the Colts) wrote an interesting book called the Jersey Effect, and spoke about how we treat athletes in society in general (though in the book's case, it comes back down to many of our own idols so to speak), but one thing that he mentioned is just how much they (and himself for that matter) get coddled. You have talent, you can get away with a lot more. It makes it hard b/c many of these kids have been given far more leeway than they ever should, and not surprisingly, they turn into adults with some pretty serious flaws.

 

For all the talk about how sports teaches character, it seems as though far more of the ones that make the professional stage seem to lack it.  This isn't to say that all athletes are bad, but I think there's something to be said to the lack of parenting many of these people have had in their lives.

[Squirrel]

Moderator note:

 

1. Please keep to the topic: domestic abuse/violence at the hands of professional athletes. We aren't talking about serial murderers and capital punishment.

2. Please do so respectfully, i.e.

--Stop trying to control the discussion and let others have their say without being dismissive.

--Stop with the tone and put downs when you disagree.

 

It's a bit ironic that of all topics, I have to put up a note in this one. Control and put downs are part of the subject matter, so step back a bit and follow the above directions.