Article: Twins Must Get Creative In Pursuit Of Pitching Help

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Ryan has been signing free agents late.  In other words, he's waiting until after all the good free agents are gone and signing whoever is left over.  Though these signings qualify as stamps on Ryan's "I Signed A Free Agent" card, it does not qualify as trying to fix the team via free agency.  

 

I've seen this posted a couple of times and need to point out that this HAS NOT been true the last few seasons.  Both this year and last, Ryan got out and did what he needed to do right away. This was true back in the Dome days, but not so much recently. Last season, the entire offseason was finished a week or two after the WS. 

 

That said, Levi is right about free agents... We've done a ton, and while none have been the ace we had hoped for, Ryan went out and got decent ones.  People weren't complaining about Nolasco and Hughes when they happened, and for good reason, they were the top of the second tier that wouldn't break the bank and had reasonable upside. We just gave up prospect to get rid of Nolasco, and Hughes is still around (for different reasons)... We started this season with a rotation of Nolasco, Hughes, and Santana... all of which were FA acquisitions. We actually have some upside in the form of young talent right now... I think you have to play it, especially in an offseason where looking at the available FA makes you think that an extended bout with the stomach flu is more palatable.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I wasn't planning parades but I fully admit thinking and typing. I don't care if 2015 was a fluke. The team did what they did... now you show them that you have their back. I don't believe that Terry Ryan supported the surprising success. 

 

With Ryan out and Falvey in. I'm gonna sit here wishing and hoping that Falvey is the aggressive sort.

 

We've done non-aggressive for years under Ryan and it didn't work.

 

I want Falvey to come in and let it be known that no pitcher with an ERA over 5 gets his name on the big grease board behind his desk and then I'd like to see him aggressively find replacements from every single source imaginable. 

 

I hope Flavey and the new GM are more aggressive than Ryan, but let's also hope they are smart when it comes to being aggressive.  Aggressive for the sake of aggressive is bad... that was Bill Smith.  Heck, Ryan was more aggressive these last few years than his past... that turned out pretty bad too.  If he wants to be aggressive, use a guy like Dozier to get a guy like Glasnow... that's aggressive.  If he wants to be aggressive, break the bank for Otani (assuming he's posted).

 

This FA pitching class is BAD... on huge levels of bad.  You may not be sold on Gibson, Mejia, May, Duffey, and Berrios... I understand that, but at the same time, we need to figure out which of these guys will be decent and which are better off in the pen or non-tendered.  You won't get that signing the Brett Anderson's of the world and guaranteeing them a contract. 

[Jham]

See, I think the much more relevant question is, if the young core is good enough to compete next year, how did we manage a historic number of losses? How can a team so ready to compete next year look so ridiculously unready this year?

 

Like it or not, the time for these core guys to develop has to happen regardless. If they do develop, we should be building the most sustainable long term effort to win with them possible. If they don't develop, we're probably screwed regardless. But I'd argue we're EXTRA screwed if we hang on to valuable assets now in some deluded attempt at contention.

 

So, again, what is the highest percentage play for the most long term gain? It ain't riding this 100+ loss team hard hoping you pull a miracle and compete next year. The odds of flipping our record by 20+ games is incredibly low. So why gamble on that? You're gambling the value of Dozier and Santana and other moves on that hope? Why even consider that a reasonable course of action?

Yuck. Depressing.

[dxpavelka]

 

I don't know how creative they need to be.  Trading, free agency, coaching, promoting, cutting.  All teams gotta do the same thing.  Ryan was trying hard with the coaching, I believe, as he was very active with the minors.  The rest of the list?  Not so much.

 

Conceptually, they just need to start acting like the other teams in the sport.  Ryan acted like he "knows better" than other teams in spite of never winning a championship.  If he had ever won anything I could see his attitude.  But the Twins were bottom feeders for most of his tenure and he had little to back up his way of pretending he could do things in a better way.  

 

Sure, Ryan's cheapness broke up the 00s playoff teams faster than you can say, "Seems like a bad move, Terry" but the teams kept on winning in spite of the rapid turnover thanks to a few key guys sticking around.  We have to tip our hats to Ryan for that.  But that's all the kudos he deserves.  

 

Just getting a guy in who is willing to do what needs to be done is a gigantic step forward.  For Twins fans this might seem creative, I guess, since we're used to management doing the minimum.

We ASSUME that we've got the right guy, that we've got a better guy, that we've got a guy "who is willing to do what needs to be done."  We actually KNOW none of that.  All General Managers act like they know better than the other teams do.  I would not want one that didn't.  The object of the game is to know better than the other teams do.  Unfortunately, only one GM gets to make that claim each year.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Yuck. Depressing.

 

I don't like it either.  But doubling down on a bad thing only makes it worse.

[Doomtints]

 

I hope Flavey and the new GM are more aggressive than Ryan, but let's also hope they are smart when it comes to being aggressive. 

 

I don't think you are likely to find anyone around here saying the opposite, that they hope Flavey makes stupid moves.

[USAFChief]

I don't like it either. But doubling down on a bad thing only makes it worse.

I see what you're endorsing as "just stay with the bad we know."

 

I don't endorse that. For one thing, it literally can't be made worse. What's worse than worst in MLB?

[TheLeviathan]

 

I see what you're endorsing as "just stay with the bad we know."

I don't endorse that. For one thing, it literally can't be made worse. What's worse than worst in MLB?

 

Continuing to be that bad for another 5 years.  The goal is to actually win and be competitive right?  Not just be slightly less putrid.  At least, I hope that's the goal.  Losing 90 games next year doesn't make me feel good.  I want to win 90 by 2018 and we don't do that by holding on to tradeable assets out of delusion.

 

If this offseason of 2014 and you could land an Ervin Santana and another arm - you might be able to persuade me.  But there is no Ervin Santana. There is no depth.  You're going to overpay for anything you acquire.  Not just in money but in trades.  Look at things for what they are, there is only one reasonable path here.

[mazeville]

 

Ryan has been signing free agents late.  In other words, he's waiting until after all the good free agents are gone and signing whoever is left over.  Though these signings qualify as stamps on Ryan's "I Signed A Free Agent" card, it does not qualify as trying to fix the team via free agency.  

 

That's not true. He jumped on Nolasco and Phil Hughes early. 

 

His free agent pitching signings were bad. But they weren't late.

[Riverbrian]

 

I hope Flavey and the new GM are more aggressive than Ryan, but let's also hope they are smart when it comes to being aggressive.  Aggressive for the sake of aggressive is bad... that was Bill Smith.  Heck, Ryan was more aggressive these last few years than his past... that turned out pretty bad too.  If he wants to be aggressive, use a guy like Dozier to get a guy like Glasnow... that's aggressive.  If he wants to be aggressive, break the bank for Otani (assuming he's posted).

 

This FA pitching class is BAD... on huge levels of bad.  You may not be sold on Gibson, Mejia, May, Duffey, and Berrios... I understand that, but at the same time, we need to figure out which of these guys will be decent and which are better off in the pen or non-tendered.  You won't get that signing the Brett Anderson's of the world and guaranteeing them a contract. 

 

I don't like the FA SP Class at all. Signing FA's this year would be like signing Nolasco back then. That was Terry Ryan's form of aggressiveness. A desperate aggressiveness and it didn't work. The sad thing is that was about the only aggressiveness that TR showed us. Otherwise it was year after year of "I sure hope this average pitcher has an above average year. 

 

It's 5 years later (Longer actually) and we are sitting with a pile of plus 5 ERA's and it's time for a whole new thought process. 

 

Get aggressive when it comes to the acquisition of upside arms. Trade Dozier... Take a big run at International Guys who can get people out like the dude from Japan.  Roll the dice on bullpen guys who could convert to starter. TRADE for them... MAKE TRADES... Big Ones... Little Ones... In between Ones.Go aggressively after Phelps or Montgomery or any pitcher that I haven't thought of that gets people out in the bullpen and stretch them. I've seen enough examples of successful conversion to consider this a viable solution to provide some competition in the rotation. 

 

How did the Indians build that rotation Mr. Falvey? TRADES... Kluber was a Padre... Carrasco was a Phillie... Salazar was an International Signing. Bauer was a D-Back... McAllister was a Yankee...  That's what I mean by getting aggressive. 

 

In the end... in 2017... I want multiple options from the sources listed above and I want actual performance on the mound to determine who gets the ball. No more sitting and waiting for Gibson to get right. 

 

But... don't get FA desperate and end up signing that tier two average guy to a 4 year deal because he's what's available like you did in Nolasco. If you want to sign a FA pitcher... Go for the top of the pile... It's a low pile this year. 

[TheLeviathan]

How did the Indians build that rotation Mr. Falvey? TRADES... Kluber was a Padre... Carrasco was a Phillie... Salazar was an International Signing. Bauer was a D-Back... McAllister was a Yankee...  That's what I mean by getting aggressive.

 

 

This I can totally get behind.  We shouldn't be the same team next year, but we should be looking to acquire pitching like that.  AA and AAA talents or guys ready to make the jump.  That's where we're going to find assets this offseason.

[USAFChief]

I don't like the FA SP Class at all. Signing FA's this year would be like signing Nolasco back then. That was Terry Ryan's form of aggressiveness. A desperate aggressiveness and it didn't work. The sad thing is that was about the only aggressiveness that TR showed us. Otherwise it was year after year of "I sure hope this average pitcher has an above average year.

 

It's 5 years later (Longer actually) and we are sitting with a pile of plus 5 ERA's and it's time for a whole new thought process.

 

Get aggressive when it comes to the acquisition of upside arms. Trade Dozier... Take a big run at International Guys who can get people out like the dude from Japan. Roll the dice on bullpen guys who could convert to starter. TRADE for them... MAKE TRADES... Big Ones... Little Ones... In between Ones.Go aggressively after Phelps or Montgomery or any pitcher that I haven't thought of that gets people out in the bullpen and stretch them. I've seen enough examples of successful conversion to consider this a viable solution to provide some competition in the rotation.

 

How did the Indians build that rotation Mr. Falvey? TRADES... Kluber was a Padre... Carrasco was a Phillie... Salazar was an International Signing. Bauer was a D-Back... McAllister was a Yankee... That's what I mean by getting aggressive.

 

In the end... in 2017... I want multiple options from the sources listed above and I want actual performance on the mound to determine who gets the ball. No more sitting and waiting for Gibson to get right.

 

But... don't get FA desperate and end up signing that tier two average guy to a 4 year deal because he's what's available like you did in Nolasco. If you want to sign a FA pitcher... Go for the top of the pile... It's a low pile this year.

 

I'd actually prefer they find a couple one or two year FAs that the new regime think can be bargains. Those bargains either help return the team to contention or are trade chips in July. There isn't much worth longer deals available this winter, but that doesn't mean sit out free agency. It should be one avenue continually used to improve your tem, no matter how bad, or good, it is.

[beckmt]

I am on board with Holland or any front line closer. The best way to fix a bad starting staff is to have a lockdown bullpen.

Twins are a ways from that, but a front line closer will shorten the game and give you a better chance to win. If that fails you can always trade the closer at the dealine for a nice haul of assets. Check what the Yankees got this year.

[Riverbrian]

 

I'd actually prefer they find a couple one or two year FAs that the new regime think can be bargains. Those bargains either help return the team to contention or are trade chips in July. There isn't much worth longer deals available this winter, but that doesn't mean sit out free agency. It should be one avenue continually used to improve your tem, no matter how bad, or good, it is.

 

If they like Chacin... go get him. If they think they can fix Latos... go get him. It's the Fister 4 year deal out of desperation that I think they should avoid. 

 

But if you go get Chacin or Latos or whoever. They compete for a job.

 

Mr. Gibson... Meet Mr. Chacin...Meet Mr. Phelps... Good luck to the threee of ya

[Thrylos]

 

I'd actually prefer they find a couple one or two year FAs that the new regime think can be bargains. Those bargains either help return the team to contention or are trade chips in July. There isn't much worth longer deals available this winter, but that doesn't mean sit out free agency. It should be one avenue continually used to improve your tem, no matter how bad, or good, it is.

 

In other words, you advocate the Terry Ryan dumpster driving strategy...

 

Been there, seen that.  How many deep post-season runs and/or World Series has this brought to the Twins? (rhetorical question.)

 

It is about time that this organization strives for excellence in acquiring and developing talent, instead of throwing mediocre players out there and hope that they turn Abad into Light

[USAFChief]

 

Mr. Gibson... Meet Mr. Chacin...Meet Mr. Phelps... Good luck to the threee of ya

"As always, Mr Phelps, should you fail to get anybody out, TD will disavow any knowledge of your actions."

[laloesch]

 

The alternative is to fill your rotation with aged pitchers that implode like Hughes.  Or don't transition well like Nolasco.  And then you are forced to turn to Pat Dean and Andrew Albers.

 

And, really, how often does that "beating the door down in AAA" thing really work?  At some point, they have to face major league hitting or you won't know what you have.  The longer you make them wait, the less of their prime you have available to you.

 

Yes!  And this has always been a pet peeve of mine with the Twins. They almost ALWAYS wait too long to get guys up here even if they struggle at first.  For years they have been like this.  Pitchers shouldn't be getting their first taste of the major leagues at 26/27.  That's too late imo. 

[laloesch]

 

In other words, you advocate the Terry Ryan dumpster driving strategy...

 

Been there, seen that.  How many deep post-season runs and/or World Series has this brought to the Twins? (rhetorical question.)

 

It is about time that this organization strives for excellence in acquiring and developing talent, instead of throwing mediocre players out there and hope that they turn Abad into Light

 

Yep.  Terry Ryan was a big big dumpster diver.  Tire of it.

[howieramone2]

 

Investing in the defense by finding a defensive catcher and SS, absolutely agree. Rolling with Mejia, and the trade acquisitions from Dozier/Santana, I'm not on board with. I'd rather have those guys in AAA beating the door down deserving of a call-up instead of planning on them making the rotation sink or swim. EDIT: At least at the beginning of the season... By June/July, it may be a different story. 

Just feel like we've been burned too much over the last couple of seasons by assuming the awesome RP and SP prospects are just a couple months away... We're still waiting for Burdi/Melotakis/Reed/Jones when supposedly they were ready by June 2015. 

No one from the Twins even hinted that Burdi/Melotakis/Reed/Jones would be ready by June 2015. Don't confuse what is said on the fan board with what our favorite team is saying.

[DocBauer]

There is no easy or immediate way to fix the rotation this one offseason. I think we all get that. And I don't mean to make Allen the fall guy, but I think a different, hopefully more experienced pitching coach could help. Better health wouldn't hurt either.

 

I don't believe we've seen the best of Gibson yet, though I know not everyone agrees with that. Healthy again, I doubt May is ruined, but from a viable experience wise, he has been delayed.

 

I also agree on at least one quality RP, even a 1 year deal, to stabilize roles and audition all these young arms that are ready, or so close. Someone doesn't perform, option him for the next man up.

 

Let's say Dozier brings back one good, quality, ready arm with additional upside. Let's say Santana is moved for something. You then have NEW GUY, Gibson, Santiago, Berrios and May as your most likely rotation. Duffey could thrive in the pen, but with better fastball control could still make it. Give Wheeler a shot just to see. Mejia may not be ready immediately, but and Gonsalves could be mid season. Is this great? But it's something not terrible to work with. But just stay away from the FA class unless you feel really good about bounce back or unmet potential. Please!

[zchrz]

 

The Twins really need to rebuild, and rebuild in a serious way.  They are not a starter, a closer, and a catcher away from being competitive.  Which means that 30 year old free agents should not be close to their target.  Their core is at around 23 years old.   If you are looking to build a team that will be competitive for a long time, you want that core to reach their primes together.  Which means that nobody over 26 should (*) be around, in 2017.

 

Nobody.

 

This makes the likes of:

 

Mauer (*)
Dozier
Escobar
Plouffe
Grossman
Park (*)
Centeno
Schafer
Santana
Gibson
Milone
Kintzler
Pressly
Tonkin
May
Santiago
Hughes (*)
Perkins (*)
Boshers
O Rourke
Wimmers

etc

 

Goners.  

 

Packaging them creatively with decent prospects that the organization does not need (Walker, Stewart, Gordon, etc.) and targeting 2-3 good arms younger than 23, and a catcher that age, would be the way to go.  Dozier, Santana, May, Gibson, Santiago do have value and in combination with prospects might bring back what the Twins need.  Other than May, I will be disappointed if any of those 4 are in a Twins' uniform come next Spring, because it will tell me that the new CBO has no idea how to rebuild either.  Dozier can be the player who can get a competitive team to the next level, for the Twins, he is lipstick.

 

Agreed about international free agents, but they will be much younger than the current core.  Do not forget the first overall pick in 2017.  I would pick the best and closest to MLB-ready arm, no matter if Joe DiMaggio's second coming was around.  They need to go for need now.

 

Of course, a total organizational shift in developing pitchers, starting with a wholesale clearance of  pitching coaches starting from the majors and the MiLB pitching coordinator should be happening.

 

I would have no issues with a rotation of Berrios, Mejia, Gonsalves, Jay, and a new young arm  and a pen of Burdi, Chargois, Duffey, Taylor, Melotakis,  Jones, and Reed or Hildenberger.

 

Half of those minor leaguers are about to get too old, they better see what they got.

 

 

(*) Unfortunately there will not be many takers for Mauer, Perkins, Park, and Hughes.   The Twins might just need to cut the cord with Perkins, play the Mauer contract out and hope that Park and Hughes return great so they can trade them during the season. 

Agree with all of this, except I would not trade Gordon.