Article: Planning To Fail

[old nurse]

 

Um, Nick provided data in his original post.  Where's yours?

 

No, you don't have to list every player, but when you're going to cite Michael Cuddyer from almost a decade ago, perhaps you should consider what that says about the strength of your argument.  

In regards to Cuddyer, I picked a name you might have recognized. Since you are the one with the issue of infielders playing outfield , prove it can't be done. You can't do it. Opinion once again stated as fact by a poster.

Tonkin's average velocity on his fastball is unchanged somewhere just below 93. Top end was 97. Unchanged even though he is throwing more innings. The  two problems with throwing more innings are a decreased velocity or too many innings. Neither has happened. The poor statistics are likely due to all the poor coaching and bad catchers who can not pitch frame rather than anything Tonkin does. I am sure if Searge were his coach and Molina his catcher he would be mentioned in the same breath as Miller,  Davis and Robertson. 

[old nurse]

 

Where was any opinion stated as a fact in this article? Seriously, show me one example. The opening portion was phrased as a question to the reader. The conclusions states that it "seems" the Twins have been operating without a plan, at least without a half-decent one. This is how you express opinions. Not sure what else you want.

Re: Tonkin. In 60 MLB appearances over the last 3 years he had a 3.35 ERA, 1.32 WHIP. Those are fine numbers from a young reliever learning his way in the majors, so your third point (which, I MUST SAY, appears to be an opinion stated as a fact!) isn't very accurate. He has done ok when given the chance but that has happened infrequently because the Twins have continually shown a preference for low-upside vets (Stauffer, Fien, Boyer, Burton, etc etc)

Why weren't you using an advanced metric rather than a team metric like ERA to prove your point?

[TheLeviathan]

 

In regards to Cuddyer, I picked a name you might have recognized. Since you are the one with the issue of infielders playing outfield , prove it can't be done. You can't do it. Opinion once again stated as fact by a poster.

Tonkin's average velocity on his fastball is unchanged somewhere just below 93. Top end was 97. Unchanged even though he is throwing more innings. The  two problems with throwing more innings are a decreased velocity or too many innings. Neither has happened. The poor statistics are likely due to all the poor coaching and bad catchers who can not pitch frame rather than anything Tonkin does. I am sure if Searge were his coach and Molina his catcher he would be mentioned in the same breath as Miller,  Davis and Robertson. 

 

I never said it can't be done, I think it's a dumb idea to take career infielders and convert them at the major league level.  We tried with Escobar, Nunez, Bartlett, Sano, and Santana and they all stunk.  I may be missing people too.  It's a terrible idea with a very low success rate.  In other words - a stupid plan.

 

And did you just argue the two problems with throwing more innings included throwing more innings?  I think that's my cue to just walk away.  I won't get anywhere here.

[old nurse]

 

I never said it can't be done, I think it's a dumb idea to take career infielders and convert them at the major league level.  We tried with Escobar, Nunez, Bartlett, Sano, and Santana and they all stunk.  I may be missing people too.  It's a terrible idea with a very low success rate.  In other words - a stupid plan.

 

And did you just argue the two problems with throwing more innings included throwing more innings?  I think that's my cue to just walk away.  I won't get anywhere here.

A poor  fielder is a poor fielder. If you don't try something different you will never know if you have a player who is suited to that new position better than the old . Other than Sano, you list all people who were utility players.

Did I mention Zobreist and Bonfacio?

Throwing more innings as in getting over 70 innings of relief work. Many relievers don't seem to like more than 70-80 innings. Little distracted. Betance last year threw more than one inning 26 times. Don't think it had an effect.

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by old nurse

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I like how some people are still convinced Ryan put a good team together and it's the coaches who have failed the team.

 

Except that no one here is actually saying that the real problem with the Twins is the coaches failing the team. I'm certain plenty would argue that coaching is part of the problem, but you and I both know this statement isn't true as it is written.

 

Let's respond to arguments with counter arguments instead of sweeping generalizations that do nothing but inflame...  and yes, this is a mod warning.

[old nurse]

Levi, just for you reading pleasure

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/189242190/more-infielders-converting-to-outfield-in-bigs/

 

 

"All athletes," said Mets manager Terry Collins, who is considering trying Jose Reyes and Wilmer Flores, both natural infielders, in the outfield. "One of the things we're finding today is player development continues in the big leagues. It doesn't stop anymore."

 

But it also speaks to the ideologies shared by progressive baseball thinkers like Maddon and Cubs president of baseball operations Theo Epstein.

Edited August 31, 2016 by old nurse

[jokin]

 

 

Let's see if he can figure out the majors... just don't slot him in as the 7th, 8th, or 9th inning guy.

 

But that's exactly what the beat writers, opinion writers and bloggers have been suggesting is Tonkin's destiny for 3 years now (presumably with encouraging whispers from the Twins coaches and management). Tonkin and his straight FB and inability to hold runners appears to have slightly better upside in an Anthony Swarzak-type role. (BTW, interesting to note Swarzak's increased velocity and K/9 rate since leaving the Twins- both numbers comparable to Tonkin)
 

[jokin]

 

 

Levi, just for you reading pleasure

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/189242190/more-infielders-converting-to-outfield-in-bigs/

 

 

"All athletes," said Mets manager Terry Collins, who is considering trying Jose Reyes and Wilmer Flores, both natural infielders, in the outfield. "One of the things we're finding today is player development continues in the big leagues. It doesn't stop anymore."

 

But it also speaks to the ideologies shared by progressive baseball thinkers like Maddon and Cubs president of baseball operations Theo Epstein.

 

Great to see that you now acknowledge that Maddon and Epstein do indeed represent "progress" in baseball terms, whereas in the past we frequently locked horns each time some of us philosophically supported both of them in their moves and machinations and you took the opposing POV.

[TheLeviathan]

 

A poor  fielder is a poor fielder. If you don't try something different you will never know if you have a player who is suited to that new position better than the old . Other than Sano, you list all people who were utility players.

Did I mention Zobreist and Bonfacio?

Throwing more innings as in getting over 70 innings of relief work. Many relievers don't seem to like more than 70-80 innings. Little distracted. Betance last year threw more than one inning 26 times. Don't think it had an effect.

 

I listed utility infielders.  Who had rarely played outfield until years after their time in development.  And all of them sucked in the outfield.  Your link, while citing that more teams are doing it, fails to argue they are doing it successfully.  We could play Suzuki in CF and call it progressive too, but it only makes sense if the guys can actually play it.

 

Maddon was talking about cultivating it in the minors - that I can agree with.  At the major league level?  Terrible.  And I'm guessing many of these experiments will end sooner rather than later.  As Schwarber and Sano have.  

[twinsnorth49]

Mod warning, tone down the rhetoric people and stop making things personal.

 

Warning points will be handed out from here on out.

[USAFChief]

If I could add a thought to North's post above: it's ok to walk away from a disagreement at some point.

[old nurse]

 

I listed utility infielders.  Who had rarely played outfield until years after their time in development.  And all of them sucked in the outfield.  Your link, while citing that more teams are doing it, fails to argue they are doing it successfully.  We could play Suzuki in CF and call it progressive too, but it only makes sense if the guys can actually play it.

 

Maddon was talking about cultivating it in the minors - that I can agree with.  At the major league level?  Terrible.  And I'm guessing many of these experiments will end sooner rather than later.  As Schwarber and Sano have.  

Suzuki did play in the outfield. Except he went by Chris Herman  or Ryan Doumit

 

Maddon's actual quote  "In the Minor Leagues, everyone was always afraid of moving guys around, for it would hinder their development. I have no idea why not, but that's always been the conventional wisdom," said Maddon. "I think its becoming more obvious now that if you get a guy who is positionally flexible, you can get him to the big leagues more quickly if his bat is ready."

 

Isn't it a bugger to be on the cutting edge, not know it, while trying to figure out how to do it.   Terry Ryan on the cutting edge without knowing it.

[twinsnorth49]

 

Suzuki did play in the outfield. Except he went by Chris Herman  or Ryan Doumit

 

Maddon's actual quote  "In the Minor Leagues, everyone was always afraid of moving guys around, for it would hinder their development. I have no idea why not, but that's always been the conventional wisdom," said Maddon. "I think its becoming more obvious now that if you get a guy who is positionally flexible, you can get him to the big leagues more quickly if his bat is ready."

 

Isn't it a bugger to be on the cutting edge, not know it, while trying to figure out how to do it.   Terry Ryan on the cutting edge without knowing it.

Are you suggesting that Ryan Doumit and Chris Hermann belonged in an MLB OF? Putting a round peg in a square hole passes as cutting edge? To be cutting edge, don't you at least have to have a modicum of success for it to qualify?

 

 

[old nurse]

 

Are you suggesting that Ryan Doumit and Chris Hermann belonged in an MLB OF? Putting a round peg in a square hole passes as cutting edge? To be cutting edge, don't you at least have to have a modicum if success for it to qualify?

When I said Suzuki in the outfield has already been done, it was called Chris Herrman and Ryan Doumit I really did not put any words that resembled great idea so I do not know why you would think that I would be suggesting that.

Edited August 31, 2016 by old nurse

[mlhouse]

The fact is this team is probably hopeless going forward with the same management team.  Huge changes need to be made in how they develop their young talent and they need to have a manager that is willing to work with those young players.

 

Looking back, the team has consistently sabatoged its rebuilding by relying on what is at best mediocrity.  They seem to prefer to sign some other teams castoffs than giving their own prospects chances.

 

Look at this list:

 

Logan Schafer

Shane Robinson

Eric Fryer

Doug Bernier

Chris Colabello

Kendrys Morales

Sam Fuld

Ryan Doumit

Clete Thomas

Jamey Carroll

 

Giving at bats to these guys served no purpose except to delay the development of players that could help in the long run.

[mlhouse]

One of the worst jobs of development they have done is with Jorge Polanco.  

 

In 2014 the young 20 year old kid has a .754 OPS in A+ and AA ball, while being -4.7 years below the AA average.  He is called up for a few games with the Twins, hits .333 with a 1.333 OPS (albeit in limited 8 PA's) so the 92 loss team does the logical thing, send him back down to the minors.

 

In 2015, the 21 year old kid has a .725 OPS between AA and AAA while being 6 years younger than AAA average and hits 300 in a limited stretch with the Twins.  Twins, still not interested.

 

Finally in 2016 the team that is trending for 100 losses  waits 75 games before they bring him up to play.  WHat more did they think he was going to show in the minors?  

 

When he came up the first time they should have just handed him a job and let him develop into it.   What, would we have lost 94 games instead of 92?

[twinsnorth49]

 

When I said Suzuki in the outfield has already been done, it was called Chris Herrman and Ryan Doumit I really did not put any words that resembled great idea so I do not know why you would think that I would be suggesting that.

I assumed when you said doing such  was TR being cutting edge ahead of his time, you meant it as a good thing.

[TheLeviathan]

 

When I said Suzuki in the outfield has already been done, it was called Chris Herrman and Ryan Doumit I really did not put any words that resembled great idea so I do not know why you would think that I would be suggesting that.

 

North was trying to give your post credit for having something to say.  So you just stated that we put catchers in the outfield....for fun?

 

Maddon's point was that if a guy has figured out hitting but not fielding, move him around to find a spot that he can field passably so he can ascend the ranks quicker.  Again, your article did nothing to suggest these moves are working or successful, only that they are being attempted more often.

 

We could attempt to field a lineup entirely out of pitchers too, wouldn't make it cutting edge or wise to try.  Sure, it'd be new, but I'm not interested in new.  I'm interested in doing things that have a good chance of succeeding.  

 

Playing guys in the field based on what appears to be a "throw a dart at a picture of a defensive alignment and go with it" doesn't lead me to think we'll have much success.  Merely being an infielder does not make one capable of being an outfielder.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Suzuki did play in the outfield. Except he went by Chris Herman  or Ryan Doumit

FWIW, Herrmann wasn't often deployed in a flexible arrangement by the Twins.  In 2014, he almost exclusively played outfield (1 inning at catcher), and in 2015, he almost exclusively played catcher (2 innings in the outfield, plus 4 at first base).

 

Similarly, Sano wasn't given an additional position -- he was completely moved.  Whatever flexibility they gained by giving him an outfielder's glove, they probably lost by simultaneously taking away his 3B glove (although they eventually backtracked on that, shortly before pulling the plug on the outfield idea entirely).

 

Danny Santana has followed a somewhat similar pattern -- setting aside whether it's a particularly new/good idea to have bad players who are position flexible, Santana was almost exclusively an infielder in 2015 (only 3 starts in the outfield), and has been almost exclusively an outfielder in 2016 (only 3 starts in the infield).

 

The Twins positional flexibility arrangements of the last few years have largely been of the "semi-permanent move" or "emergency" variety.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The Twins positional flexibility arrangements of the last few years have largely been of the "semi-permanent move" or "emergency" variety.

 

Or in the case of Doumit and Bartlett - totally inexplicably stupid.

[The Wise One]

It is not so stupid to want players to have position flexibility. Thing is, they have to be players. Mocking Doumit, Herrman and Suzuki really does not make the idea of having player flexibility a bad one.

[The Wise One]

I would imagine why Maddon would think a player who worked at excelling playing multiple positions and had a bat capable of it would advance quicker than a player playing only one spot is that it would take a lot of extra work on the part of the player. I think any manager would want hard working players on their roster.

[FormerMinnasotan]

There has been no plan all along it seems. Well, the plan was for Sano, Buxton, Berrios, and Kepler to make the team competitive again. Problem #1, the Twins have no clue how to develop promising starting pitching (see Berrios, Gibson), problem #2 Sano and Buxton have not developed into the players (yet) the Twins hoped for. The Twins should have been in full rebuild mode by 2012 after the 99 loss season in '11. But still there is no full commitment to rebuilding the team. Until the Twins understand they have to fully rebuild the team they will just be a crappy run team top to bottom.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

It is not so stupid to want players to have position flexibility. Thing is, they have to be players. Mocking Doumit, Herrman and Suzuki really does not make the idea of having player flexibility a bad one.

Good thing nobody is doing that?  Doumit and Herrmann were first brought up in this discussion as examples to suggest the Twins were "cutting edge."

Edited September 1, 2016 by spycake

[TheLeviathan]

 

It is not so stupid to want players to have position flexibility. Thing is, they have to be players. Mocking Doumit, Herrman and Suzuki really does not make the idea of having player flexibility a bad one.

 

What's stupid is to prize flexibility in and of itself without qualifications.

 

I'll pitch every day, play any position on the field, come out of the bullpen, do the laundry, and answer questions from Sid Hartmann for the major league minimum.  I'll be the most flexible player in major league baseball history.  Of course, I'll also be terrible.  Like, get the Benny Hill music ready terrible.

 

But dammit - I'll be flexible!

 

So, maybe just maybe, we should ask that flexibility also comes with, I don't know, competence? 

[old nurse]

Good thing nobody is doing that? Doumit and Herrmann were first brought up in this discussion as examples to suggest the Twins were "cutting edge."

You must have missed the earlier comment I made in the exchanges about multi position players with Levi when I said a pad fielder is a bad fielder wherever you put them. Doumit and Hermrann were brought up when Levi mentioned flexing Suzuki to the outfield as a way to illustrate my earlier comment a bad fielder is a bad fielder wherever you put them. Levi in the same post mentioned the article on Maddon. The article made out Maddon to be some cutting edge genius. How you are thought of when things work (Maddon) and things don't (Twins) a good one to point out.

[TheLeviathan]

You clearly, totally missed my point about Suzuki.  Maddon isn't being hailed as a genius for that stuff, the article was merely stating that more teams are trying it.

[The Wise One]

 

What's stupid is to prize flexibility in and of itself without qualifications.

 

I'll pitch every day, play any position on the field, come out of the bullpen, do the laundry, and answer questions from Sid Hartmann for the major league minimum.  I'll be the most flexible player in major league baseball history.  Of course, I'll also be terrible.  Like, get the Benny Hill music ready terrible.

 

But dammit - I'll be flexible!

 

So, maybe just maybe, we should ask that flexibility also comes with, I don't know, competence? 

I don't see anyone prizing flexibility over talent. You can indict the Twins were their multi position players not working as multi position players but the truth is that they were not good at any position on a team that lacked talent. There may have been a perceived potential. Alas, the potential went unmet.  If you have players that can play multiple positions it does help the situational hitting.

[The Wise One]

 

You clearly, totally missed my point about Suzuki.  Maddon isn't being hailed as a genius for that stuff, the article was merely stating that more teams are trying it.

Yes sir. The Cardinals have also been moving infielders to the outfield upon many  occasions. Such a proven stupid organization,, right?   Yet some people get so upset at infielders in the outfield while teams have been doing this before.  Jump on the bandwagon early. You , too, can be a leader. Remember platoons in  the era of DH and 13 people pitching  staffs falling pretty much by the wayside. Oakland had some success and people here started talking about how the stupid Twins were with their platoons or lack of.   Cuban  players. The first few signed and then the comments started to fly. Why aren't the Twins signing them was a familiar rant, a well as" I want a Cuban".  Overshifts all the time was the rage    . Not as discussed now.  Get behind the multi position player concept before the trend starts in full blast.    Once a trend starts, all sorts of ridiculous things will be proposed.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't see anyone prizing flexibility over talent. You can indict the Twins were their multi position players not working as multi position players but the truth is that they were not good at any position on a team that lacked talent. There may have been a perceived potential. Alas, the potential went unmet.  If you have players that can play multiple positions it does help the situational hitting.

 

Sure, teach flexibility.....in the minors.  Don't toss career infielders into the outfield and call it innovative.  This thread of the conversation started based on the spot-on criticism Nick laid out about not putting players in a position to succeed.  

 

The Cardinals are doing it and they are a bottom quartile team defense.  Doing something no one else is doing is only redeemable if it works and gives you an advantage.  Playing catchers and infielders in the outfield doesn't seem like a real strong chance of being that.  Again, we could also field an entire lineup out of pitchers and get credit for being innovative, but being innovative isn't the point.  Being better than the rest of the league is.  If something innovative will help with that - go for it.  Playing guys out of position and not maximizing their strengths is just a terrible idea on the face of it.