Logan Schafer is up, DanSan to the DL

[jokin]

 

  On 9/2/2016 at 4:09 PM, twinsnorth49 said:

Regardless of how many AB's Schafer ended up getting before recalling Buxton again, doesn't justify a team with 50 wins bringing in a player with zero future with the club to play in front of someone who they still desperately need to be a part of the future.

 

And the Twins' broadcast team continued with the "intriguing" meme regarding Schafer throughout the game last night with Schafer, only now playing in LF... DESPITE Buxton playing in CF for the second game in a row... Do the Twins really need "to see what they have here" in a guy (who then proceeded in the game to badly misjudge a fly ball and turn it into a double, and) who basically has done nothing at the major league level in parts of 5 previous seasons? 

[The Wise One]

 

  On 9/2/2016 at 4:09 PM, twinsnorth49 said:

Regardless of how many AB's Schafer ended up getting before recalling Buxton again, doesn't justify a team with 50 wins bringing in a player with zero future with the club to play in front of someone who they still desperately need to be a part of the future.

So the argument shifts from it should have been Walker/Palka to Buxton.

[The Wise One]

 

  On 9/2/2016 at 2:35 PM, wsnydes said:

Absolutely it does.  This team hasn't believed that all year though, so why are they starting to all of a sudden now?  A bit late to that part I'd say.

 

Secondly, it's one player.  It's not as though both corners would be occupied by guys striking out at a horrific rate.  Rosario plays CF, Kepler in RF, ABW or Palka in LF.  

So the Twins would only have one player striking out at a high rate?  Are you  sitting Sano?  2 players with high strikeout rates against minor league pitching. It is not going to get better. 2 players with BABIP over 90 points higher than their batting averages. Far better they have a mystery about their pro level chances than bring them up and remove all doubt. The only thing they have going for them is that they can hit bad minor league pitching.

[wsnydes]

  On 9/7/2016 at 2:23 AM, The Wise One said:

So the Twins would only have one player striking out at a high rate? Are you sitting Sano? 2 players with high strikeout rates against minor league pitching. It is not going to get better. 2 players with BABIP over 90 points higher than their batting averages. Far better they have a mystery about their pro level chances than bring them up and remove all doubt. The only thing they have going for them is that they can hit bad minor league pitching.

I believe the discussion was about Palka and ABW in the same outfield.

[The Wise One]

 

  On 9/7/2016 at 2:27 AM, wsnydes said:

I believe the discussion was about Palka and ABW in the same outfield.

More than corner outfielders bat in the lineup, so it is not just one corner outfielder striking out a lot.   As I said earlier, with September call ups, Schaffer's AB will be minimal

[wsnydes]

  On 9/7/2016 at 2:39 AM, The Wise One said:

More than corner outfielders bat so it is not just one corner outfielder striking out a lot.

That isn't the point being made. The rest of the lineup wasn't being discussed.

[wsnydes]

  On 9/7/2016 at 2:39 AM, The Wise One said:

More than corner outfielders bat in the lineup, so it is not just one corner outfielder striking out a lot. As I said earlier, with September call ups, Schaffer's AB will be minimal

If you read my initial comment you quoted, I specifically state just one of the corner outfield spots would strike out a lot. Nowhere did I state anything about the rest of the lineup. The context was the outfield corner spots.

 

I never mentioned Schafer at all. Not sure where you got that.

[twinsnorth49]

  On 9/7/2016 at 2:03 AM, The Wise One said:

So the argument shifts from it should have been Walker/Palka to Buxton.

No, just one of many, not named Schafer.

[The Wise One]

 

  On 9/7/2016 at 2:56 AM, twinsnorth49 said:

No, just one of many, not named Schafer.

Again, a few AB before Buxton came back up should be no bid deal. Not even 2 dozen AB.  Making mountains out of a grain a sand. There is nothing but opinion that the Twins would be better or worse off with playing time to Walker or Palka at the major league level.  Sub par defense, sub par  contact. With the Millones of the world excelling in AAA, Albers, Dean and the like being above average AAA pitchers  I am not going to get excited about 2 guys that similar pitchers to those three have padded their K% statistics with. It just does not bode well for them at the major league level.  

 

Yes there are many outfielders in the system not named Shaffer. If at the beginning of the year anyone had faith in more than a couple of them, there wouldn't be the Logan Shaffer, Mastroiannis, or Bensons signed. AB Walker has had a whole year to shine, bring  up his level of play. Did not happen. 

 

A comparable found to Walker would be Moya from Detroit.   Most would say who?  That is Walker's upside.  Mountains out of a grain of sand because that is what some people do in bad situations.

[twinsnorth49]

  On 9/7/2016 at 9:14 AM, The Wise One said:

Again, a few AB before Buxton came back up should be no bid deal. Not even 2 dozen AB. Making mountains out of a grain a sand. There is nothing but opinion that the Twins would be better or worse off with playing time to Walker or Palka at the major league level. Sub par defense, sub par contact. With the Millones of the world excelling in AAA, Albers, Dean and the like being above average AAA pitchers I am not going to get excited about 2 guys that similar pitchers to those three have padded their K% statistics with. It just does not bode well for them at the major league level.

 

Yes there are many outfielders in the system not named Shaffer. If at the beginning of the year anyone had faith in more than a couple of them, there wouldn't be the Logan Shaffer, Mastroiannis, or Bensons signed. AB Walker has had a whole year to shine, bring up his level of play. Did not happen.

 

A comparable found to Walker would be Moya from Detroit. Most would say who? That is Walker's upside. Mountains out of a grain of sand because that is what some people do in bad situations.

If anyone is making a mountain out of a grain of sand, I believe it's you. Your insistence to just dismiss this all because of some perceived, insignificant time frame isn't really an argument. I don't care whether it was 2 AB'S or 50, the Twins brought up a player who should play no part in their future plans, at the expense of at least 3 players who they need to do everything they can to find out whether they do. In a season as lost as this and with wins being as meaningless as complaining which direction the wind is blowing, that's really the only thing that matters.

[Platoon]

Someone in the FO should have a plaque made, quoting the late great Denny Green. "They were who we thought they were" (or something on that order). It could be the new mantra for analyzing 30 yr old AAAA players.

[GMinTraining]

  Quote

If Walker makes similar improvement at the plate as he did as a left fielder, then there is reason to believe he has a future. His throwing, a glaring deficiency in spring training, is markedly better. So much better that he had seven assists this season.

"He made that a priority," Quade said, "and he deserves so much credit."

 

AAA manager on Adam Brett Walker's improvement in the outfield and his hard work in that area.  If we are in the business of rewarding hard work?  Lol

 

From what I've heard in regards to exit meetings - Players are told good job - see you next year.  Arcia said this last year when he wasn't called up.  No one explained why he wasn't called up, whether we assumed why or not.  I don't believe the Twins talk to any of their 40 man players (not called up) about why they aren't called up.  I'd like Seth to find out differently?  As an organization - you have to know that players on the 40 man dream of that day.  The Twins celebrate the guy added to the 40 man (Beresford - deserving) and probably send the only guy on the 40 man (in AAA) home with no explaination.  The Twins

 

I can't lie - I wanted ABW up for 2 reasons:

(1) I think he deserved it

(2) With only 1 African American on the team now (Buxton), I wanted young African Americans in MN to see that baseball does have other African American players in the game.  I love the game of baseball.  I still think my #1 reason trumps the second reason though.   Couldn't have hurt the Twins in anyway but their pocketbooks.

[USAFChief]

  On 9/7/2016 at 2:49 PM, twinsnorth49 said:

If anyone is making a mountain out of a grain of sand, I believe it's you. Your insistence to just dismiss this all because of some perceived, insignificant time frame isn't really an argument. I don't care whether it was 2 AB'S or 50, the Twins brought up a player who should play no part in their future plans, at the expense of at least 3 players who they need to do everything they can to find out whether they do. In a season as lost as this and with wins being as meaningless as complaining which direction the wind is blowing, that's really the only thing that matters.

It's also not an isolated case.

 

"Maybe THIS aging multiple-time-failure minor league free agent is the ticket!" is no way to build a winner.

 

It gets frustrating as a fan.

[The Wise One]

 

  On 9/7/2016 at 2:49 PM, twinsnorth49 said:

If anyone is making a mountain out of a grain of sand, I believe it's you. Your insistence to just dismiss this all because of some perceived, insignificant time frame isn't really an argument. I don't care whether it was 2 AB'S or 50, the Twins brought up a player who should play no part in their future plans, at the expense of at least 3 players who they need to do everything they can to find out whether they do. In a season as lost as this and with wins being as meaningless as complaining which direction the wind is blowing, that's really the only thing that matters.

What part of 38% strikeout rate in the minors  does not translate to a major league ballplayer is too tough to figure out?  What non catcher, non pitcher  is going to get by  with that   strikeout rate. Sano is at 35%. Sano's worst full season in the minors was 29% which he improved to 23% in AA before being called up.  There are current players hovering near 30%   For Palka and Walker that would mean when  jumping to the majors these players would be having a significant improvement  in their K% when these players have shown increases as they progress  up the levels in their strikeout percentages.

[The Wise One]

 

  On 9/7/2016 at 5:23 PM, USAFChief said:

It's also not an isolated case.

"Maybe THIS aging multiple-time-failure minor league free agent is the ticket!" is no way to build a winner.

It gets frustrating as a fan.

Jose Bautista and JD Martinez, multiple major league failures before they got it right say hello. Shaffer is not their equivalent in base talent but no one has ever claimed that or this player is the ticket. When North can't  answer the question perhaps you can.

[USAFChief]

  On 9/9/2016 at 7:47 AM, The Wise One said:

Jose Bautista and JD Martinez, multiple major league failures before they got it right say hello. Shaffer is not their equivalent in base talent but no one has ever claimed that or this player is the ticket. When North can't  answer the question perhaps you can.

What question?

[Rigby]

 

  On 9/9/2016 at 11:29 AM, USAFChief said:

What question?

Ginger or Mary Ann ? Keep up.

[jimmer]

 

  On 9/9/2016 at 11:29 AM, USAFChief said:

What question?

Exactly.  Couldn't find the question in there either. 

 

It's like, yeah, we recognize all the words, but they were arranged by pulling them out of a hat?

 

Come to think of it, much like Molitor's lineups, actually.

[The Wise One]

 

  On 9/9/2016 at 11:29 AM, USAFChief said:

What question?

Since you interjected in my last exchange with Twins North I made the foolish assumption that you would have read the last post I put in. The question is there.

[The Wise One]

 

  On 9/9/2016 at 12:37 PM, jimmer said:

Exactly.  Couldn't find the question in there either. 

 

It's like, yeah, we recognize all the words, but they were arranged by pulling them out of a hat?

 

Come to think of it, much like Molitor's lineups, actually.

Since you appear to not have followed along the thread and commented, here is the question I posed to someone else.

What part of 38% strikeout rate in the minors  does not translate to a major league ballplayer is too tough to figure out?  What non catcher, non pitcher  is going to get by with that strikeout rate.

 

You can't answer it with a good player.

[twinsnorth49]

  On 9/9/2016 at 12:49 PM, The Wise One said:

Since you appear to not have followed along the thread and commented, here is the question I posed to someone else.

What part of 38% strikeout rate in the minors does not translate to a major league ballplayer is too tough to figure out? What non catcher, non pitcher is going to get by with that strikeout rate.

 

You can't answer it with a good player.

You can answer it with , one that is only going to come down with as many plate appearances as possible at the MLB level. And what better time than to give them the opportunity the while marching too 100 losses.

 

If it doesn't, at least you bothered to find out.

[GMinTraining]

For the record - Dozier played only 48 minor league games in AAA Rochester (2012) before getting promoted.  He hit .232 BA with a .286 OBP and a .337 SLG% and 2 HRs  and a R/PA rate of .074  in Rochester before that promotion.  Dozier then played in 84 MLB games that season while hitting with similar numbers - .234 BA and .271 OBP and .332 SLG% and 6 HRs.  The Twins sucked that year too, but Dozier was given 84 games to figure stuff out.  IMO Walker out performed Dozier at the AAA level (Rochester) , yet wasn't worthy of a Call Up.  I am truly interested in the rationale.  Meaningful games vs Meaningless games?

 

ABW II - .243 BA with a .308 OBP and a .478 SLG% and a R/PA rate of .116 in Rochester

 

I respond to the Wise One with "What part of a .286 OBP and .337 SLG% rate in the minors does not translate to a major league ballplayer is too tough to figure out?  What non catcher, non pitcher is going to get by with those numbers?"  Lol  --  I say this jokingly and not with ill intent.  Did you envision Dozier being the star he has become based on his AAA numbers?  If so. you need to bottle that formula / rationale up.

[old nurse]

 

  On 9/9/2016 at 2:48 PM, GMinTraining said:

For the record - Dozier played only 48 minor league games in AAA Rochester (2012) before getting promoted.  He hit .232 BA with a .286 OBP and a .337 SLG% and 2 HRs  and a R/PA rate of .074  in Rochester before that promotion.  Dozier then played in 84 MLB games that season while hitting with similar numbers - .234 BA and .271 OBP and .332 SLG% and 6 HRs.  The Twins sucked that year too, but Dozier was given 84 games to figure stuff out.  IMO Walker out performed Dozier at the AAA level (Rochester) , yet wasn't worthy of a Call Up.  I am truly interested in the rationale.  Meaningful games vs Meaningless games?

 

ABW II - .243 BA with a .308 OBP and a .478 SLG% and a R/PA rate of .116 in Rochester

 

I respond to the Wise One with "What part of a .286 OBP and .337 SLG% rate in the minors does not translate to a major league ballplayer is too tough to figure out?  What non catcher, non pitcher is going to get by with those numbers?"  Lol  --  I say this jokingly and not with ill intent.  Did you envision Dozier being the star he has become based on his AAA numbers?  If so. you need to bottle that formula / rationale up.

Power in some players develops over time, With no ill intent and very jokingly you could then say Shaffer could develop power  like Dozier. 

Unfortunately Walker's second best year for K% is 28%.  That is still a very high rate to overcome to be productive.  An argument over which player is or could be worse  just shows how far this season has sunk.

[GMinTraining]

 

  On 9/9/2016 at 9:55 PM, old nurse said:

Power in some players develops over time, With no ill intent and very jokingly you could then say Shaffer could develop power  like Dozier. 

Unfortunately Walker's second best year for K% is 28%.  That is still a very high rate to overcome to be productive.  An argument over which player is or could be worse  just shows how far this season has sunk.

And his best was 20% with 109 RBI and 27 homers.  Let's work towards those numbers, although Chris Davis has a career 30% K rate which was even higher this year and last year.

 

Your right about Shafer becoming Dozier (possible), but I would rather bank my money on a guy who at least produced in AAA.  Dozier was promoted on gut not anything special he did in AAA.  Just saying.  If we can promote on gut, then we can promote on production averages. Non better over the last 4 seasons.

[The Wise One]

 

  On 9/9/2016 at 12:58 PM, twinsnorth49 said:

You can answer it with , one that is only going to come down with as many plate appearances as possible at the MLB level. And what better time than to give them the opportunity the while marching too 100 losses.

 

If it doesn't, at least you bothered to find out.

So by some sort of  magic Walker is going to strike out less against better pitching ?   By some sort of  voodoo he will increase his walk rates.   Walker is going to do what no one has done before because you can't find one yet insist it can happen.

[twinsnorth49]

  On 9/10/2016 at 6:50 AM, The Wise One said:

So by some sort of magic Walker is going to strike out less against better pitching ? By some sort of voodoo he will increase his walk rates. Walker is going to do what no one has done before because you can't find one yet insist it can happen.

So the only reason to bring up Schafer over Walker is less strikeouts? I understand Walker has an absurd amount of strikeouts but I still don't get where Schafer earns a call up over him , especially in a season such as this. Besides, you seem hung up on Walker, my preference would have been Palka, but again, 29 year waiver wire acquisitions are a higher priority it appears.

[jorgenswest]

I wonder how much Walker's inability to play defense has an impact on the decision. Grossman hasn't been out there much lately either. if they are going to have Polanco and Sano in the infield, they might need the gloves of Rosario, Kepler, Buxton and Schafer in the outfield. Grossman has started one game in the OF since August 28. He was banged up but I think he is healthy and sitting now. There is a place for Walker and Schafer on the roster, but there might not be a place for Walker's glove in the OF. There isn't room at DH.

 

The Twins need to do everything possible to prevent runs. Schafer, though he isn't in the long term plans, can make a much better contribution to the defense than anyone else in AAA.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Suzuki just started at DH, so there might have been a little room there.

[The Wise One]

 

  On 9/10/2016 at 1:49 PM, twinsnorth49 said:

So the only reason to bring up Schafer over Walker is less strikeouts? I understand Walker has an absurd amount of strikeouts but I still don't get where Schafer earns a call up over him , especially in a season such as this. Besides, you seem hung up on Walker, my preference would have been Palka, but again, 29 year waiver wire acquisitions are a higher priority it appears.

I am really sorry you keep missing the multiple times I have posted that Walker and Palka have no value as trade fodder if they come up and fail. As both have been in the minors for several years and never once made it to a top 100 by any service other than a top 100 Twins prospect list, it would stand to reason they are a high risk, high reward prospect.. The reason to not bring them up has nothing to do with Schaffer as it protecting their value.

[USAFChief]

I believe today marks the 8th time for Schafer in the starting lineup.

 

It's tough for me to stay interested in this team, when they make decisions like this. Over and over.

 

And I'm a guy that has stayed interested for 50 years or so, through some tough times. I don't see much reason to think they think there's no upside to playing Schafer.

 

Second start in a row for Beresford, while I'm at it. Now there's some September playing time well invested! There's an organization trying to dig itself out of a hole!