Article: Have The Twins Mishandled Mitch Garver?

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Do we know if Mitch Garver can hit major league pitching?  

 

The answer, obviously, is no, we do not know.  

 

And, with that answer shows that the Twins have mishandled Mitch Garver.  

 

 

Based on that logic, the Twins have mishandled just about every minor leaguer in the system.  For that matter, so has every other major league baseball team.

[Yossarian]

I subscribe to the theory that a catcher only has so many games in him because of the physical demands of the position. Therefore, if the kid's making strides defensively (can he block a pitch in the dirt?), then I'm happy to have Garver share time in the minors so he can catch more games in the majors.

 

Offensively, they've moved Garver around the field and kept him in the lineup to give him more ABs and develop his bat. I think that will pay off. Garver's one prospect who we seem to have developed well. And now Turner's starting to hit at 'Nooga now that Garver's in Rochester. Good for both of them.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Based on that logic, the Twins have mishandled just about every minor leaguer in the system.  For that matter, so has every other major league baseball team.

The poster referred to Garver's age in the very next sentence, which you blatantly omitted from your quote.  You can disagree with him, but don't be dishonest about it.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I don't think the Twins are "slow promoters" to any great degree, but it is interesting/odd that Garver will turn 26 this winter and might have zero MLB experience (or perhaps just a couple token September appearances, if they do indeed call him up after Rochester's season ends but fail to deal Suzuki).

 

While that may look unavoidable because he started the year in AA, and Garver was a 22 year old college draftee, but we also sent him to rookie league ball at age 22, and then we made him spend a whole season, his age 23 season, at A ball in Cedar Rapids even though he hit quite well the whole year (while at the same time, we pushed Turner to skip that level and not hit so well at high-A and AA).

 

And it doesn't seem like we held Garver back to work on his defense -- in that whole season in Cedar Rapids, he barely caught 50% of his games.  Org filler Michael Quesada took significant catching reps from Garver that year, and again the following year at Fort Meyers, before apparently washing out of pro ball by his 26th birthday.

 

And while I don't think Garver is some great prospect, I also wouldn't point to his modest minor league batting lines as evidence that the Twins were wise to hold him back.  Adjusted for league, his batting lines have been pretty consistently good-to-great in pro ball, and his K/BB rates have been very good too, suggesting a player who could have been challenged more:

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=sa578988&position=C/DH

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by spycake

[mlhouse]

 

Based on that logic, the Twins have mishandled just about every minor leaguer in the system.  For that matter, so has every other major league baseball team.

 

 

Whatever.  Based on your logic every team in major league baseball is the same.  But they aren't.

 

A team that has lost more than 90 games 5 out of the past 6 years should have a different way of developing minor league prospects than other teams.  

 

And, the question that a team that is in such a rebuilding "phase" needs to ask the question about 25 year old prospects as quickly as possible:  can they hit or can they pitch in the major leagues.  As I stated (and you obviously did not comprehend), it would be different if there were established players or better prospects ahead of Garver.  If we had a good, young catcher established at the MLB level Garver would be a secondary prospect at best.  But we don't.  And, while the acquisition of John Ryan Murphy at the beginning of the season may have slipped Garver down to the #2 guy in line, durign the course of the season Garver has passed him by.

 

What value do the Twins get while playing Kurt Suzuki, a 32 year old journeyman or Juan Centeno, a 26 year old discard from another team?   Lets get our prospects up to the MLB level and let their play be evaluated.  Don't yo-yo them around.  Take their mistakes when they happen and lose the games now.  Maybe Garver isn't the guy, but we clearly do not know that.  Lets find out and take the losses this year (and what very clearly appears to be next year too). 

[mlhouse]

And Centeno is an example of another weird idiosyncrasy of this organization.  
 

We seem to prefer other teams cast offs to developing our own prospects.  WHile sometimes these waiver wire acquisitions make sense, a guy like RObbie Grossman is the type of castoff that has some talent but needed more opportunity, the stream of Jordan Schaefers, Shane Robinsons, Doug Berniers, Eric Fryers, Sam Fulds, Chris Colabellos, Clete Thomass,  and Jamey Carrols seems to keep this team peddling in low level, "proven" replacement level play.  And that list of players doesnt even address the ptiching staff, which would rather put waiver wire guys on the mound than their prized prospects.

 

I get it.  They just refuse to hire a management team that has the patience to play and lose with the young guys while developing them into major league players at the major league level.  Sticking all of those years with Gardenhire pretty much is evidence to that.  

 

But these are the choices that have kept this team locked into 90+ loss seasons. '

 

While the argument might get old, the 1981-82 rebuidlign should be the model.  Players like Hrbek, Laudner, Viola, and Gaetti were brought up to the major leagues with very little minor league experience.  Hrbek's highest minor league level was A+ in 1981 when he a September call up and handed the starting job in 1982.  Using the Twins approach of today would have meant that Hrbek would have still been in the minors in 1984 when he finished 2nd in the AL MVP balloting.

 

WHat Twins management did in 1982 was commit to the young prospects.  They knew they would lose lots of games, 102 of them in 1982, but they developed the core of the 1987 and 1991 World Series champs from that roster.  Some of the prospects, like Brad Havens, Dave Engle,Eisenreich and Lenny Faedo did not work out.  But while the team was develping this gave them time to find alternatives, like Kirby Puckett and Greg Gagne.  

[jorgenswest]

Wouldn't Garver's success to this point suggest the Twins have handled him well? His bat has remained solid as he moved up the ladder and his defense is reports to be much improved.

 

Mishandling might be expecting him to be a major contributor at the major league level from opening day next year. They can hope that he will arrive with little time in AAA, but need to plan otherwise. Planning for him to arrive in the summer with a larger major league role in 2018 would be more reasonable.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Whatever.  Based on your logic every team in major league baseball is the same.  But they aren't.

 

A team that has lost more than 90 games 5 out of the past 6 years should have a different way of developing minor league prospects than other teams.  

 

And, the question that a team that is in such a rebuilding "phase" needs to ask the question about 25 year old prospects as quickly as possible:  can they hit or can they pitch in the major leagues.  As I stated (and you obviously did not comprehend), it would be different if there were established players or better prospects ahead of Garver.  If we had a good, young catcher established at the MLB level Garver would be a secondary prospect at best.  But we don't.  And, while the acquisition of John Ryan Murphy at the beginning of the season may have slipped Garver down to the #2 guy in line, durign the course of the season Garver has passed him by.

 

What value do the Twins get while playing Kurt Suzuki, a 32 year old journeyman or Juan Centeno, a 26 year old discard from another team?   Lets get our prospects up to the MLB level and let their play be evaluated.  Don't yo-yo them around.  Take their mistakes when they happen and lose the games now.  Maybe Garver isn't the guy, but we clearly do not know that.  Lets find out and take the losses this year (and what very clearly appears to be next year too). 

 

The guy was drafted at 22 with plenty of things to work on. He was a 9th round pick. Those guys don't have a high rate of success, and no one that far down is anything close to a sure thing.  Since then, he's been in 4 levels over 3 years (likely soon to be 5 levels), with one of those years I might add (last season) being pretty unimpressive in terms of performance.  I'm not sure how that falls under mismanagement. He has not been held back. Simply pushing him up because, well we have a need, is a great way to mismanage a position.  Hicks, Gomez, Arcia, and now Buxton are all really good examples of what happens when that is a motivating factor to moving a player.  If there's any indication about what the Twins have done wrong, it's doing precisely what you're suggesting here. They've consistently done that to players and it has consistently failed. Garver has hardly been mismanaged.

 

Back to the topic at hand, Garver got his promotion to AAA because he earned it, and he's likely to get that Sept call up because he earned it. Let him earn it.  Don't certainly promote him simply because we have a gaping hole at C. We know how well that works. The Twins need to put him in the best possible chance to succeed.

[mlhouse]

 

The guy was drafted at 22 with plenty of things to work on. He was a 9th round pick. Those guys don't have a high rate of success, and no one that far down is anything close to a sure thing.  Since then, he's been in 4 levels over 3 years (likely soon to be 5 levels), with one of those years I might add (last season) being pretty unimpressive in terms of performance.  I'm not sure how that falls under mismanagement. He has not been held back. Simply pushing him up because, well we have a need, is a great way to mismanage a position.  Hicks, Gomez, Arcia, and now Buxton are all really good examples of what happens when that is a motivating factor to moving a player.  If there's any indication about what the Twins have done wrong, it's doing precisely what you're suggesting here. They've consistently done that to players and it has consistently failed. Garver has hardly been mismanaged.

 

Back to the topic at hand, Garver got his promotion to AAA because he earned it, and he's likely to get that Sept call up because he earned it. Let him earn it.  Don't certainly promote him simply because we have a gaping hole at C. We know how well that works. The Twins need to put him in the best possible chance to succeed.

 

"Earning" each promotion is a concept that is outdated for the condition of this team.  That is why Garver is already 25 and does not have a single major league AB.  Winning is not even something that is important right now.  Evaluation and development are.

 

What the Twins need to do at all levels of management is say, screw it.  We are going to lose 100 games this season and perhaps 100 more next season.  BUT, from these ashes we are going to develop a competitive team. 

 

What they need to do at the management level of the major league team is bring in a guy that can work with and develop these players.  It is obvious that we have not had that type of management with the Twins.  One reason why this is obvious is how difficult it is for even the TOP prospects of this team to move up to the major league level with any type of success.  We had the #1 overall prospect in major league baseball in Byron Buxton, and so far in 326 ABs at the major league level he is hitting .199.  His ..567 OPS is pathetic.  Send him back to AAA and he is a .956 OPS guy.  

 

We know that young guys will struggle but some of these struggles have been totally unexpected, at least in magnitude (did you think Buxton would be a sub-.200 hitter?????).  

 

If you don't liek the Buxton example, what about Berrios or Chargois?  

 

I think the evidence suggests that there might be something wrong with how the Twins staff works with and prepares these young players.  And this must be remedied.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The guy was drafted at 22 with plenty of things to work on. He was a 9th round pick. Those guys don't have a high rate of success, and no one that far down is anything close to a sure thing. Since then, he's been in 4 levels over 3 years (likely soon to be 5 levels), with one of those years I might add (last season) being pretty unimpressive in terms of performance. I'm not sure how that falls under mismanagement. He has not been held back. . .

FYI, Garver last year posted a 116 wRC+ in the FSL. Virtually identical to his 118 mark in AA this year.

 

If that earned him his promotion to AAA as you claim, there was definitely a case for him moving up midseason in 2014 or 2015 too.

[jokin]

 

The guy was drafted at 22 with plenty of things to work on. He was a 9th round pick. Those guys don't have a high rate of success, and no one that far down is anything close to a sure thing.  Since then, he's been in 4 levels over 3 years (likely soon to be 5 levels), with one of those years I might add (last season) being pretty unimpressive in terms of performance.  I'm not sure how that falls under mismanagement. He has not been held back. Simply pushing him up because, well we have a need, is a great way to mismanage a position.  Hicks, Gomez, Arcia, and now Buxton are all really good examples of what happens when that is a motivating factor to moving a player.  If there's any indication about what the Twins have done wrong, it's doing precisely what you're suggesting here. They've consistently done that to players and it has consistently failed. Garver has hardly been mismanaged.

 

Back to the topic at hand, Garver got his promotion to AAA because he earned it, and he's likely to get that Sept call up because he earned it. Let him earn it.  Don't certainly promote him simply because we have a gaping hole at C. We know how well that works. The Twins need to put him in the best possible chance to succeed.

 

Good points overall, prospect catchers develop at the slowest rate of all prospects- with good reason. The Twins made a decision early on to put Turner on the faster track with respect to Garver- he clearly had/has the better tools to play the position in the majors. He also beat Garver out for the Bench award in college. Garver took the whole situation as a challenge, and he has clearly responded in exactly the way the Twins had hoped he would.

 

I have to object to your characterization of Garver's season in Ft Myers, though. His underlying numbers were sterling among all catchers in a very tough, power-starved, pitchers' league.

 

FSL numbers: 1st in OBP, 1st in IsoD, 1st in BB%, 3rd in wOBA, 3rd in wRC+.

 

Garver's FSL numbers were also skewed by an outlying BABIP of .287 relative to his minor league career BABIP of .311 for A ball and above and .335 if you throw out his year at Ft Myers. Garver has a great eye at the plate and can hit for some power. To further support the case, his offensive production in the AA Southern League was far superior to past Southern League catchers who became decent-hitting major leaguers, like Vogt, Lake and Gattis.

[Mike Sixel]

I just want him in MN in September.....though KLAW just wrote a long piece on how teams DON'T use September for most prospect call ups anymore, to save service time and because they are calling them up earlier in their careers to use them.

[howieramone2]

 

And Centeno is an example of another weird idiosyncrasy of this organization.  
 

We seem to prefer other teams cast offs to developing our own prospects.  WHile sometimes these waiver wire acquisitions make sense, a guy like RObbie Grossman is the type of castoff that has some talent but needed more opportunity, the stream of Jordan Schaefers, Shane Robinsons, Doug Berniers, Eric Fryers, Sam Fulds, Chris Colabellos, Clete Thomass,  and Jamey Carrols seems to keep this team peddling in low level, "proven" replacement level play.  And that list of players doesnt even address the ptiching staff, which would rather put waiver wire guys on the mound than their prized prospects.

 

I get it.  They just refuse to hire a management team that has the patience to play and lose with the young guys while developing them into major league players at the major league level.  Sticking all of those years with Gardenhire pretty much is evidence to that.  

 

But these are the choices that have kept this team locked into 90+ loss seasons. '

 

While the argument might get old, the 1981-82 rebuidlign should be the model.  Players like Hrbek, Laudner, Viola, and Gaetti were brought up to the major leagues with very little minor league experience.  Hrbek's highest minor league level was A+ in 1981 when he a September call up and handed the starting job in 1982.  Using the Twins approach of today would have meant that Hrbek would have still been in the minors in 1984 when he finished 2nd in the AL MVP balloting.

 

WHat Twins management did in 1982 was commit to the young prospects.  They knew they would lose lots of games, 102 of them in 1982, but they developed the core of the 1987 and 1991 World Series champs from that roster.  Some of the prospects, like Brad Havens, Dave Engle,Eisenreich and Lenny Faedo did not work out.  But while the team was develping this gave them time to find alternatives, like Kirby Puckett and Greg Gagne.  

Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

That's kind of a short rebuttal......

 

You don't agree that this management team seems to prefer bad veterans from other teams over young players from their own system? It sort of appears that way sometimes.

[mlhouse]

 

That's kind of a short rebuttal......

 

You don't agree that this management team seems to prefer bad veterans from other teams over young players from their own system? It sort of appears that way sometimes.

 

 

Of course it does.   WHile I looked at the hitters, this weird preference for mediocrity at best is even more prevalent with the pitching staff. 

 

What the Twins management seemingly refuses to understand is that you need to play the players that will make mistakes, errors, and some bad play in order to develop it.  They have proven they have zero patience with their young players.  WHile, if the team was winning 90 games that might be a reasonable position.  But this team is losing 90+ games and it aint because we are only playing young players.  We are just playing BAD players.

 

As I have stated above, and in other posts in this forum, the Twins MUST get a manager and coaching staff that can work with and develop the young players.  Gardenhire clearly could not but they stuck with him losing 90+ game four seasons in a row.  I think it is clear that Molitor also does not have the patience to work with the young players as exhibited by the yo-yoing of our prospects up and down.  

 

WHen JT Chargois was first called up to the big leagues he was given exactly one chance, did not do well, and then was sent back down.  HE has already proven he can get minor league hitters out.  But the Twins just will not work with their prospects to get them able to have major league success.

 

If you look at the roster, the proof is in the pudding.  Since the team has went 63-99 under Gardenhire in 2011, losing 96, 96, and 92 games following that season, they have exactly two positional player that came up through their minor league system, Brian Dozier and Trevor Ploufe and one pitcher, Kyle Gibson (with Glen Perkins probably being done).   That isn't much to account for such a long period of ineptitude.