Article: For The Love Of Joe

[wsnydes]

 

And for his salary we need many more HRs, RBIs, and clutch hits from him.

 

Were you calling for a pay increase when he was putting up MVP numbers making $10.5M a year?  This notion is laughable.  Salary means nothing on the field.

[Seth Stohs]

 

All of those rankings are (and correctly) judged against the one that is not mentioned:

 

Total Compensation: #1 - in Twins history

 

and it does not meet expectations.

 

This is exactly what the problem with Mauer is.  

 

It is not that he is not a good player that has been a great player.  It is that he is not the best player ever the Twins have had, even though he is compensated like he is.

 

To be fair... the compensation in the game of baseball is more than a bit different in the last 15 years than it was when Killebrew and Carew played for Calvin Griffith. And it's much different now than when Puckett and Hrbek played. In fact, at one time, Kirby Puckett was the highest paid player in baseball (for a few days, I believe). Mauer wasn't. So, the compensation is what it is, and dependent upon era.

[wsnydes]

Let's not also forget that Mauer's new deal was negotiated around the time that the team was having a funding bill being signed for a shiny new ballpark.  This team would have been crucified if they let the hometown boy walk when they were using the "we need the ballpark to keep players like Joe" excuse and he was coming off of an MVP season.

 

Edit:  my timeline is off...The deal was negotiated as Target Field was set to open, which would make him walking look even worse in my view.

Edited August 24, 2016 by wsnydes

[Seth Stohs]

 

Or, perhaps some of that dislike stems from a perception that he refuses to modify plate appearances to fit the role, or fit specific situations, as some of us believe is required to maximize the team's chances of winning.

 

That's probably something that is true as well. I think Kevin Garnett went through some of that with the Wolves. Garnett was often unselfish to a perceived fault. Garnett chose to trust his teammates to take and make a better shot than he was going to get. It wasn't until he was part of a championship and more competitive teams that people better understood how great he really was, not only himself for his teammates. 

 

Different game, of course, but I think it's the same with Mauer. Could he have expanded his strike zone and swung at more balls in RBI situations? Sure, and maybe a few times it would have resulted in runs. More often, it would have resulted in a bad at bat. Instead, he looked in the on-deck circle and noticed Morneau or Cuddyer or Sano and said, but if I get on base, then that guy can knock in the run and me too and at the end of the day, we have even more runs. 

 

 

[KirbyDome89]

I've never been a fan of using postseason play as an indicator of HOF worthiness in any sport, especially not baseball. Mauer could only bat once every nine chances, and he certainly wasn't pitching during the playoff series. In a sport where the regular season is 162 games I can't understand how 9 career playoff games (good or bad) are somehow indicative of whether or not he is a HOF player. I also have to disagree with the notion that he didn't "carry the team," and therefore isn't worthy. Baseball isn't like the NBA where a star player can lead a mediocre team to low seeded playoff spot. You need good players at every positions in baseball to even have a chance at the playoffs. Mike Trout with the angels is a prime example. I'm not sure whether Mauer is a HOF player, but I am sure little stock should be put into the 2 criteria above. 

[ThejacKmp]

This is a different tack and I'm likely a lone voice shouting into the void here but I haven't given up hope that Joe Mauer will have another good season or two.

 

I understand that's getting harder to defend, but the other day I was looking at Joe's career stats and I noticed that he's seen a significant drop in his BABIP. He’s generally had a high BABIP over his career but the past two years have seen the lowest of his career since his first meaningful season at age 22 - .309 last year and .318 this year. His prior worst was two seasons with .319 (in 2007 and 2011, no coincidentally the two injury-plagued/below-.300 years of his prime).

 

Looking at his advanced stats, I can’t see anything that would materially change those numbers. He’s never had a ton of infield hits so a drop in speed doesn’t make sense – and he’s not getting faster but he’s also likely not getting slower. His GB/FB ratio hasn’t changed in any marked way (it was a career high last year but is back to his career norm this year) and his LD % is actually a career high this year. His K rate has gone up over the past five years of course, but not so much to show a .050+ drop in batting average.

 

The only idea for a permanent change that makes sense to me is that Joe has been quite adversely affected by shifts. It would explain a drop in BABIP since the balls that were hits before now aren’t falling. I’m not smart enough to figure out if that is true or not but just from watching games it doesn’t seem to me that he’s incredibly shifted any more. I’ve even heard the unreliable source that is the FSN broadcast team talking about teams playing him more straight up so maybe teams are rethinking it? He’s not a huge power hitter so the shifts may not be as emphasized with him.

 

I guess overall I’m saying that there’s maybe a light at the end of this kind of dark tunnel. Mauer’s BABIP has been very low the past two years and that has the potential to change. I get that two years starts to become a pattern (and three years would definitely indicate one) and I understand that it may not be bad luck (could be aging, shifits etc.) But if his BABIP returned to even low peak-Joe Mauer levels (say .345), he’s be back up to hitting around .300. It would certainly help his HOF case and the Twins in 2017.

[Thrylos]

 

First of all if Carew or Killebrew played in this era they would have been compensated equally or greater than Joe.  

 

Second, piggy backing off of the first part of my post, the game has changed drastically from an economic point of view.  Yes, Joe makes a lot of money, and it would have been nice if he played like 2009 for every year since, but he didn't.  

 

 

If Twins front office decided to let Mauer walk in 2010 because his asking price was too high in the same year as they were moving into Target Field you would have been the loudest one on these message boards and on your blog calling for every member of the management to be fired and complaining about how cheap the Twins are.  

 

 

Should they retroactively award contracts to those more deserving players? Mauer was on an absolute tear the years before his contract extension and in all honesty the Twins got the hometown discount to keep him. The Twins had to shell out to keep an MVP level, beloved player. It hasn't worked out perfectly, but we still have a first baseman playing excellent defense, with a high OBP and a solid batting average.

 

I did not say that he should not be paid what he is paid or that the Twins should have not extended him or that I personally have any issues with his contract.

 

As a matter of fact, I am on the record multiple times defending that contract and saying that the Twins could absolutely not do differently because the town that almost erupted when Kirby was talking to Boston as a free agent for certain erupt if Mauer left.  

 

They could not do otherwise.

 

All I am saying is that if you look where Mauer's performance ranks to where his compensation ranks

 

(and feel free to normalize for the league which is actually a better comparison; eg. Mauer's contract in 2016 was about  78% of the league's top annual contract -Kershaw's-vs. Carew's in 1978 being 18% of the league's top contact - Ryan's- I think that this is a good compromise.) 

 

you'd find out that he is overpaid for what he is producing.

 

Not that the Twins could have done otherwise.  Ryan was between a rock and a hard place, and likely that's part of the reason he retired and let Smith deal with the mess...

 

[ThejacKmp]

 

I've never been a fan of using postseason play as an indicator of HOF worthiness in any sport, especially not baseball. Mauer could only bat once every nine chances, and he certainly wasn't pitching during the playoff series. In a sport where the regular season is 162 games I can't understand how 9 career playoff games (good or bad) are somehow indicative of whether or not he is a HOF player. I also have to disagree with the notion that he didn't "carry the team," and therefore isn't worthy. Baseball isn't like the NBA where a star player can lead a mediocre team to low seeded playoff spot. You need good players at every positions in baseball to even have a chance at the playoffs. Mike Trout with the angels is a prime example. I'm not sure whether Mauer is a HOF player, but I am sure little stock should be put into the 2 criteria above. 

 

I agree to this to a point. I'd say it's much harder for a baseball player to carry a team in the playoffs but not that it's impossible. Daniel Murphy last year is a prime example - he threw the Mets on his back and took them to the World Series. Now he didn't do it on his own (their pitching helped) but it can be done.

 

At the same time, I agree that one shouldn't judge players for the HOF based on playoffs. It's super rare for a player to do that in the postseason and Mauer never got much of a chance. Mauer has only had three abortive playoff runs as a Twins and kind of carried them in one (it was only three games but he had a 1.000 OPS and a number of big hits). The bigger issue is that a lot of those teams just weren't as good, especially in starting pitching. The 2009 team had Brian Duensing, Nick Blackburn and Carl Pavano as it's SP. 2010 had Liriano, Pavano and Hughes. The 2006 team was the Twins best (oh Johan) and even it had a guy named Boof Bonser starting Game 2 and the broken arm of Brad Radke in Game 3.

 

Hard to blame Mauer for his lack of postseason success - that's been the Twins fault. It's the same as blaming KG for not getting out of the first round more than once in MN - one guy can only go so far.

 

I think Mauer should be a HOF but I get it may take awhile and may not happen. The difference between him and Mattingly is that he played catcher for his prime, not 1B/OF. For eight years he was by far the best catcher in baseball and provided elite defense while winning three unprecedented batting titles and an MVP. He even has a Pujols year, the ultimate compliment. I think that's a big enough peak to make you HOF but I get the other side of the argument. I hope the sabermetrics crowd continues to gain more influence and can highlight just how amazing Joe Mauer was for his peak. He's not the best catcher of all time but I think he's right around #10  and if you were to pick a five-year stretch of catching to call the best, Mauer 2006-2010 would have to right near the top of that list. I think that counts for something.

[SarasotaBill]

Mauer's production is dramatically down

Mauer is overcompensated.

Mauer's injury shifted him from a strong position © player to a average (1B) player.

Mauer is in the way of the Twins rebuilding

 

I think everyone likes Joe as a person just not the production.

 

[bird]

My "dislike" of Joey is misplaced, irrational, and based on misperceptions. But it just won't go away. I keep seeing pitchers pour hittable first pitches down the heart of the plate while Joey's bat stays superglued to his shoulder as if he'd face a firing squad if he dared swing. I see a big, strong, remarkable athlete that apparently lacks the athletiism to adjust his swing and pull hittable pitches over the right field fence a dozen times a year. Or maybe he's stubborn. I see a player who is selfish and unimaginative, and one of the confirmations of this particular misperception is that he appears to be unwilling to expand the zone by just a fraction with men on base and seems happy to coax a walk in situations where the team needs its stud player to carry them on his back with a big knock. I see a player vulnerable to injury, and unlucky for sure, but also perhaps somewhat deserving of the nickname of General Soreness. I see a player who lacks the "it" factor. I see a player who demonstrates almost no visible leadership dimension. He's uninspiring to watch on the baseball diamond much of the time, and he's boring in the interview room. I can't recall the last time a teammate sung his praises to the media, especially regarding something he did to help them personally. I see a remarkable athlete, taken 1/1 in the draft for a reason, who has under-shot the mark in his career, and, as misguided and irrational as it is, I tend to think injuries played a smaller role in this than his own human flaws did. So, as great as his career has been, in my mind it should have been better. The arithmetic doesn't tell the full story of the performance I've witnessed over the years.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I can't help but wonder how things for the Twins and Mauer's career perception would be different if his RBI double in the playoffs had been accurately called fair.

It wasn't an RBI double, it was a leadoff double.  And Mauer eventually singled, and the Twins got the bases loaded with nobody out and failed to score.

 

Then Teixeira homered to lead off the bottom of the inning.  It was an absolutely terrible, indefensible call by Phil Cuzzi, but it ultimately probably would not have mattered.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Let's not also forget that Mauer's new deal was negotiated around the time that the team was having a funding bill being signed for a shiny new ballpark.  This team would have been crucified if they let the hometown boy walk when they were using the "we need the ballpark to keep players like Joe" excuse and he was coming off of an MVP season.

 

While the team would have certainly dealt with bad press for letting Mauer leave (or even letting him hit free agency), they actually secured the ballpark funding back in 2005.  Mauer didn't sign his extension until March 2010, meaning it likely had zero effect on the ballpark and its 2010 revenue.

 

Had he left as a free agent after the 2010 season, it could have impacted 2011 -- maybe the "new ballpark" revenue boost would have worn off a little quicker, although with the Twins poor play, probably not that much quicker than it actually did...

 

(Not that I am arguing we should have let him leave, I don't think the extension really hurt us, although I would have rather seen a more aggressive early extension than the conservative one TR signed.)

[clutterheart]

Are there people who really think Mauer is not one of the all time great Twins?  I don't read a lot of Mauer threads, but if people think that well...they are just silly.

 

But none of that really matters now. 

 

Mauer's contract ends after 2018.  Twins probably won't be contending until hopefulyl 2019.  I don't think the Twins should re-up him as he isn't a good hitting first baseman and Twins have lots of young players who might be more suited to play first base.  

 

So the question is should the Twins just DFA him to ensure they don't lose some young players with potential?    I say yes. Let him sign with another team and hopefully get a ring.  

[bird]

 

 

Different game, of course, but I think it's the same with Mauer. Could he have expanded his strike zone and swung at more balls in RBI situations? Sure, and maybe a few times it would have resulted in runs. More often, it would have resulted in a bad at bat. Instead, he looked in the on-deck circle and noticed Morneau or Cuddyer or Sano and said, but if I get on base, then that guy can knock in the run and me too and at the end of the day, we have even more runs. (quote)

 

I wish I bought this, Seth, but I just don't. I'm inclined to say it's a conditional habit that demonstrates a stubbornness and even a selfishness. Granted, lots of players get wide eyes in those situations and swing out of their shoes, and granted, Mauer probably gets fewer hittable pitches than most, and granted, Pucket can clobber a bad ball whereas Mauer can't and shouldn't try. But still...just recall how often Mauer gets into a two-strike count with runners on base where a strike was called on him.

 

And you're taking your bat out of your own hand for Cuddyer or even Morneau? 

[wsnydes]

 

While the team would have certainly dealt with bad press for letting Mauer leave (or even letting him hit free agency), they actually secured the ballpark funding back in 2005.  Mauer didn't sign his extension until March 2010, meaning it likely had zero effect on the ballpark and its 2010 revenue.

 

Had he left as a free agent after the 2010 season, it could have impacted 2011 -- maybe the "new ballpark" revenue boost would have worn off a little quicker, although with the Twins poor play, probably not that much quicker than it actually did...

 

(Not that I am arguing we should have let him leave, I don't think the extension really hurt us, although I would have rather seen a more aggressive early extension than the conservative one TR signed.)

Correct, my timeline was off.  Thanks for the correction.  I've amended my original post.

 

The opening of the new ballpark is a worse time than securing funding.  It doesn't really change my statement though.  The team still would have been crucified if he were to walk.  I do agree that a more aggressive approach by TR to extend him would have been a better approach.  It never should have gotten to ST of his walk year.  That gave Mauer more leverage even without the MVP season.  

Edited August 24, 2016 by wsnydes

[Shane Wahl]

The Hall of Fame is a joke anyway. Regardless, though, he will make it in.

[troyhobbs]

The ONLY reason Joe catches flack is because of his contract yet by and large Minnesotans adore him. If he was in almost any other city he'd be one of the most hated players in baseball. If Joe (or others on his behalf) can't handle a little criticism then they're not aware of the reality of professional sports.

[SwainZag]

 

The ONLY reason Joe catches flack is because of his contract yet by and large Minnesotans adore him. If he was in almost any other city he'd be one of the most hated players in baseball. If Joe (or others on his behalf) can't handle a little criticism then they're not aware of the reality of professional sports.

 

I see zero situations around the league where Joe would be one of the most hated players in baseball.

[Steve Lein]

I am not at all saying Joe Mauer is not one of the Twins all time best with the following comments (he is), but I see him in a much different context than most.

 

There is a large obsession with on-base percentage around the world of Major League Baseball these days, thanks to sabermetrics and WAR and everything else. What I dislike about this, is how batting average (and in turn, hits) has somehow become less valued when comparing players in this age.

 

The fact is, HITS are worth a hell of a lot more than walks. Give me a .300/.350 hitter any day of the week over a .280/.370 hitter. Yet what you will find, is the .280 player (all other things being equal) is valued more by things like WAR.

 

Since this is a Twins list, here is the comparison I always use for Mauer, when discussing the best Twins of all time (I think there is a clear #1):

 

Player X: 1783 games, 2304 hits, 1071 runs, 414 doubles, 57 triples, 207 home runs, 1085 RBI, and a triple slash for his career of .318/.360/.477.

 

Mauer: 1573 games, 1815 hits, 879 runs, 360 doubles, 28 triples, 129 home runs, 800 RBI, and a triple slash for his career of .310/.393/.447.

 

Mauer's pace numbers compared to Player X's career come out to: 2057 hits, 996 runs, 408 doubles, 32 triples, 146 home runs, and 906 RBI.

 

If you hadn't figured it out yet, Player X is Kirby Puckett.

 

For all the things Mauer is lauded for doing now, Kirby is often times looked back upon in retrospect as flawed, despite the facts (to me) that Puckett was far more productive than Mauer due to the volume of HITS he collected.

 

He had over 200 hits in 5 different seasons, leading the AL in that category 4 times (and had 190+ in 2 other seasons). Mauer has eclipsed 190 hits once in his career.

 

Puckett scored 100+ runs in four seasons, 80+ in nine. Mauer has eclipsed 80+ runs five times.

 

Puckett drove in 100+ runs in three seasons, and 80+ in ten. Mauer has eclipsed 80+ RBI four times, with a peak of 98 in his MVP season.

 

Just another interesting note, for all the people who say Puckett swung at everything and struck out too much as a result: Mauer is on an exact pace to match Kirby's 965 career K's in the same amount of games played at this point.

 

Walks are definitely a good thing, but to me, there comes a point, or is a certain type of player, where the curve starts to be a detriment if too many walks are taken. Mauer is what he is (and has been great), but I have to believe with his hitting ability and youthful skills he hurt his overall production by being that type of player. I'd sacrifice the same amount of on-base percentage points for slugging any day of the week, and with his skill as a hitter, Mauer could have done much more in the HITS category to drive something like this.

 

Again, with these nitpicks, he still is undoubtedly one of the best Twins ever. I just think he is credited for some things that others get bashed for, when it should be the opposite. I would love to see what Mauer's WAR totals would be in comparison to these others if he was not ever a catcher. Say a CF who played defense just as good as Puckett did.

 

 

 

 

[JaleelWhite FanClub]

 

I can't help but wonder how things for the Twins and Mauer's career perception would be different if his RBI double in the playoffs had been accurately called fair.

 

Nathan still blows the save and A-Rod still torches the Twins for the rest of the series.

 

That said, everything that's happened since that 2010 call for the Twins has been a disaster. What was the ump's name? We need to name a curse after him.

[troyhobbs]

I see zero situations around the league where Joe would be one of the most hated players in baseball.

Sarcasm. Point is Mauer sympathizers would need much thicker skin in a more vicious market and Joe is actually treated pretty well by fans and media in MN.

[Loosey]

It is strange to me that so many people dislike Mauer to the degree they do.  

 

If someone put Mauer points down on paper without his name and said a large portion of fans dislike this player it would be confusing as to why:

 

1) #1 Overall Draft Pick

2) Grew up in city he plays in 

3) Multiple Batting Titles

4) Multiple Batting All Star Games

5) 1 MVP award

6) Chose to stay "home" after going into Free Agency

7) Struggled through brain injuries forcing him to change positions  

8) Has never been in trouble with the law or said/done anything offensive 

 

Yet a large majority of people dislike him.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I am not at all saying Joe Mauer is not one of the Twins all time best with the following comments (he is), but I see him in a much different context than most.

 

There is a large obsession with on-base percentage around the world of Major League Baseball these days, thanks to sabermetrics and WAR and everything else. What I dislike about this, is how batting average (and in turn, hits) has somehow become less valued when comparing players in this age.

 

The fact is, HITS are worth a hell of a lot more than walks. Give me a .300/.350 hitter any day of the week over a .280/.370 hitter. Yet what you will find, is the .280 player (all other things being equal) is valued more by things like WAR.

 

Since this is a Twins list, here is the comparison I always use for Mauer, when discussing the best Twins of all time (I think there is a clear #1):

 

Player X: 1783 games, 2304 hits, 1071 runs, 414 doubles, 57 triples, 207 home runs, 1085 RBI, and a triple slash for his career of .318/.360/.477.

 

Mauer: 1573 games, 1815 hits, 879 runs, 360 doubles, 28 triples, 129 home runs, 800 RBI, and a triple slash for his career of .310/.393/.447.

 

Mauer's pace numbers compared to Player X's career come out to: 2057 hits, 996 runs, 408 doubles, 32 triples, 146 home runs, and 906 RBI.

 

If you hadn't figured it out yet, Player X is Kirby Puckett.

 

For all the things Mauer is lauded for doing now, Kirby is often times looked back upon in retrospect as flawed, despite the facts (to me) that Puckett was far more productive than Mauer due to the volume of HITS he collected.

 

He had over 200 hits in 5 different seasons, leading the AL in that category 4 times (and had 190+ in 2 other seasons). Mauer has eclipsed 190 hits once in his career.

 

Puckett scored 100+ runs in four seasons, 80+ in nine. Mauer has eclipsed 80+ runs five times.

 

Puckett drove in 100+ runs in three seasons, and 80+ in ten. Mauer has eclipsed 80+ RBI four times, with a peak of 98 in his MVP season.

 

Just another interesting note, for all the people who say Puckett swung at everything and struck out too much as a result: Mauer is on an exact pace to match Kirby's 965 career K's in the same amount of games played at this point.

 

Walks are definitely a good thing, but to me, there comes a point, or is a certain type of player, where the curve starts to be a detriment if too many walks are taken. Mauer is what he is (and has been great), but I have to believe with his hitting ability and youthful skills he hurt his overall production by being that type of player. I'd sacrifice the same amount of on-base percentage points for slugging any day of the week, and with his skill as a hitter, Mauer could have done much more in the HITS category to drive something like this.

 

Again, with these nitpicks, he still is undoubtedly one of the best Twins ever. I just think he is credited for some things that others get bashed for, when it should be the opposite. I would love to see what Mauer's WAR totals would be in comparison to these others if he was not ever a catcher. Say a CF who played defense just as good as Puckett did.

I understand your point about hits v. walks - and to an extent, I agree - but you lost me when you transitioned to seasonal comparisons of counting stats.

 

Puckett was an everyday centerfielder who had 600+ PAs most seasons and a few 700+ seasons. By comparison, Mauer was a catcher who crossed 600 PAs only four times and never approached 700.

 

Some of that was due to injury - Puckett was mostly healthy while Joe had issues - but a large portion of it is due to the demands of catching. Seasonal comparisons of counting stats will always skew in favor of the non-catcher.

[Steve Lein]

 

I understand your point about hits v. walks - and to an extent, I agree - but you lost me when you transitioned to seasonal comparisons of counting stats.

 

Puckett was an everyday centerfielder who had 600+ PAs most seasons and a few 700+ seasons. By comparison, Mauer was a catcher who crossed 600 PAs only four times and never approached 700.

 

Some of that was due to injury - Puckett was mostly healthy while Joe had issues - but a large portion of it is due to the demands of catching. Seasonal comparisons of counting stats will always skew in favor of the non-catcher.

 

Except you can extrapolate data, as I also did in that post. Puckett still outpaces Mauer across the board.

[bird]

 

I see zero situations around the league where Joe would be one of the most hated players in baseball.

 

 

I also see reasons for some of the flack he gets that have nothing to do with his contract. 

[wsnydes]

 

I also see reasons for some of the flack he gets that have nothing to do with his contract. 

Taking first pitch strikes certainly trumps almost anything A-rod has done.

 

Is some flack deserved?  Sure.  Does any of it make him the most hated player in the game?  I think not.

 

That was the argument, not that Mauer is void of fault or flack.

[Dantes929]

Ok, his playoff numbers are just ok but in three of the closest pennant races in baseball history his  September average and OPS were

2006 (.337) (.936)  

2008 (.365) (.904)

2009 (.354) (.958)

His August  numbers in those years were pretty great as well.   

I am more of a great years vs longevity guy.   (Ron Guidry could make a good case) for HOF.     IMO, any guy with 3 batting titles should have a very strong case and that Mauer did it while catching and getting Gold Gloves should only help.     His numbers have been hurt by his post concussion years.    .401 OBP and .322 AVG look a lot better than .393 and .310 and sinking.  

[SwainZag]

 

Taking first pitch strikes certainly trumps almost anything A-rod has done.

 

Is some flack deserved?  Sure.  Does any of it make him the most hated player in the game?  I think not.

 

That was the argument, not that Mauer is void of fault or flack.

 

I still see nothing wrong with Joe taking 1st pitch strikes. 

[wsnydes]

 

I still see nothing wrong with Joe taking 1st pitch strikes. 

Nor I.  I was just using it as an example of something that drives people nuts.  

 

 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Unfortunately JAWS is adjusted by position and you are looking at catcher numbers. It's going to be a hard sell to get him in based on that.

Seth made the argument that we shouldn't really compare Mauer to catchers in the hall, but then rattled off the list of catchers in the hall. It's only natural because catchers are unique to all position players. Just look at all the safety equipment. Even pitchers don't get that and they have the ball hit at them on purpose at 60'6"

 

If Joe can pull off a late career surge and earn a year or two extension, I think he can get in.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Sconnie