Article: Three-Bagger: Kennys, New Guys & What The Hector

[mdonaghue]

A team floating around .400 shouldn't be playing anyone over age 30. I don't care what the advanced stats say, they aren't winning anything for the next two years. Give the young guys consistent playing time and see what they can do.

[TheLeviathan]

None of us know what will become of Vargas, but I can guarantee this:  if we play him every fourth day in favor of Mauer we are willingly sacrificing the opportunity and chance at helping the future each and every time we do it.  

 

We can play him and find we have a gem or a dud or we can not play him and never know.  The kid needs to be in the lineup every freaking day of September.

[Twodogs]

I don't know what the Twins are thinking but I feel that if the Twins are going to be remotely successful next season Sano has to be the regular third baseman the majority of the time.  I think Polanco needs to play SS and Vargas needs to be the normal DH.  I just think that Vargas opens up so much more opportunity lineup wise with his switch hitting ability.  He was sent down, maybe that was on purpose???  Maybe the Twins view him as their primary DH next year and don't want him sitting around for the next 2 weeks playing every 4th game.  Maybe they sent him down to get regular at bats, maybe they saw enough to know that he is the direction they need to travel in, but right now there isnt room.  That is what I am hoping for.  I think if Buxton evolves and becomes even half the hitter he is as a fielder, and Kepler and Rosario flank him in the OF. with Vargas at DH and Sano at 3B and Polanco at SS that would be a pretty potent lineup.  Maybe Park can come off the bench for the next 2 years until Mauer retires and then take over at 1B??  I don't have the answers but that is what I am hoping for.

[bluechipper]

My favorite part about this for Kennys was the double-header. He hits 2 HRs and increases his OPS to over 1.000, and then can't get into the second game's lineup? And then only gets into two more games before he gets sent down. That doesn't seem right.

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

Truth is, Dozier, Plouffe, Mauer, Escobar, DSantana, Grossman, Suzuki, can sit for a month.  Our draft position will hold in the top 2 or 3, we will be better in the long run, and for the first time in a half decade, we will put players where they ultimately belong.    I'm tired of waiting for long-term vision from this team.

 

Whoa, if benching all those guys for the last month of the season is the truth, I'll take the lie.

 

This was touched upon in the thread about Stephen Gonsalves, but the impatience and urge for the Twins to "do something" is causing many folks to push for things that would be severely detrimental to this team's future. Making Engelb Vielma our new everyday shortstop for the last month of the season would be bad for him, bad for the Twins, and bad for the fans who would have to endure watching this poor kid struggle to hit his weight. Letting prospects develop properly IS long-term vision, in my opinion.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Whoa, if benching all those guys for the last month of the season is the truth, I'll take the lie.

 

This was touched upon in the thread about Stephen Gonsalves, but the impatience and urge for the Twins to "do something" is causing many folks to push for things that would be severely detrimental to this team's future. Making Engelb Vielma our new everyday shortstop for the last month of the season would be bad for him, bad for the Twins, and bad for the fans who would have to endure watching this poor kid struggle to hit his weight. Letting prospects develop properly IS long-term vision, in my opinion.

 

Well, he didn't call for that, did he? He said old veterans don't need to play in September, so the Twins can gather information on the young players that will be called up.

 

If you think playing Santana or Grossman helps this team this year or next year, we won't agree. They have to add both the AAA and AA catcher to the 40 man this off season, why not call one or both up and not play suzuki? 

 

I mean, if you are going to argue with someone, argue against what they actually said...

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

Well, he didn't call for that, did he?

 

Well, he said all those guys can sit for a month. I assumed that meant sitting on the bench.

[ScrapTheNickname]

 

A team in a playoff hunt can't afford to experiment by giving young guys with potential more playing time.

You have a drop of white White Russian in your beard. There. You got it.

Edited August 22, 2016 by ScrapTheNickname

[Mike Sixel]

 

Well, he said all those guys can sit for a month. I assumed that meant sitting on the bench.

 

did you read my whole reply?

 

No place did he call for Vielma......

 

They are probably calling up a Catcher, should he sit, or Suzuki?

 

Why play Escobar or Plouffe in September much if Vargas, Sano, Polanco are all here?

[ScrapTheNickname]

September call ups. Another kid will stun us with an out-of-this-world month of offensive stats. Only to ...

Edited August 22, 2016 by ScrapTheNickname

[Mike Sixel]

 

September call ups. Another kid will stun us with an out-of-this-world month of offensive stats. Only to ...

 

I don't disagree, but they have guys that have to be on the 40 man next year, those guys will get called up mostly. Do you sit them, or sit the veteran that you have years of data on?

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

did you read my whole reply?

 

No place did he call for Vielma......

 

They are probably calling up a Catcher, should he sit, or Suzuki?

 

Why play Escobar or Plouffe in September much if Vargas, Sano, Polanco are all here?

 

He did call for Vielma. I disagreed with him.

 

I don't mind Suzuki, Escobar, and Plouffe having their playing time cut down. It was including Dozier and Mauer in that group that made me raise my eyebrows.

[Mike Sixel]

 

He did call for Vielma. I disagreed with him.

 

I don't mind Suzuki, Escobar, and Plouffe having their playing time cut down. It was including Dozier and Mauer in that group that made me raise my eyebrows.

 

Must have been in part you didn't quote, my bad......

 

So Polanco shouldn't play 2B at all? Mauer shouldn't sit some so Vargas or Park can play some 1B?

[jimbo92107]

 

Agreed. I can't believe they don't relegate Mauer and Plouffe to the bench. I get Sano's elbow issue but he needs to play every day. Everyone seems to forget what a horrible fielder Koskie was when he came up. If the ball wasn't hit right at him, he couldn't get to it. Mauer has become a tease with the stick - flashes of what he was but not consistent. Stick Vargas and Sano out there the rest of the season and see what happens.

I remember the couple times I saw Mauer pull the ball with authority a couple weeks ago. I saw his stance and thought, "He looks a little like he's copying Kepler." Bang, he pulled a line drive over the right field fence. Drove another one to the right-center gap. Days later, his stance looked like the same old Mauer, and his pull power disappeared. 

 

Kepler knows how to pull with power; Mauer knows how to slash the ball oppo for high average. The two styles do not appear to be compatible. 

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

Must have been in part you didn't quote, my bad......

 

So Polanco shouldn't play 2B at all? Mauer shouldn't sit some so Vargas or Park can play some 1B?

 

If the Twins see Polanco and Dozier both playing for the 2017 Twins, then Jorge should be getting plenty of playing time on the left side of the infield (like he is now). An occasional start at 2B isn't a big deal, but if Dozier isn't going anywhere, I don't see how playing Polanco there helps him or the team.

 

If Mauer's getting half the starts at 1B (with Park, Vargas, and maybe Sano and Plouffe sharing the rest), I wouldn't see a problem with that (there's always DH for Joe). Bottom line for me: Mauer isn't going to be a bench player in 2017-18, so he shouldn't be sitting much in September.

[Mike Sixel]

Mauer isn't a bench player by 2018? Hmmmmm. I will take that bet.

[Vanimal46]

Mauer isn't a bench player by 2018? Hmmmmm. I will take that bet.

Same. If 35 year old Mauer is still starting 120+ games in the field something went very wrong.

[Dozier's Glorious Hair]

 

Same. If 35 year old Mauer is still starting 120+ games in the field something went very wrong.

 

If Mauer isn't in the starting lineup for 120+ games in 2018 (barring injury), I'd be pretty shocked. He's been the face of the franchise for well over a decade, a franchise that's loyal to a fault. I just don't see it.

[Tibs]

Probably way late here, but before everyone goes bashing on Joe Mauer once again, we need to recognize that he currently has an OPS+ of 114 and has looked pretty good defensively at 1B this year. Absolutely no reason he should be benched

[Darius]

It is the battle of the small sample sizes. Vargas' July vs August numbers. Which numbers are a reflection of his true talent?

 

Love the Arcia reference. Yup, sometimes being able to mash a ball isn't enough. It isn't enough when it does not happen enough. It has to happen even more when when you can't catch the ball.

Arcia and Vargas aren't even close, IMO. Vargas is actually passable at 1B, has very good zone discipline, and is a switch hitter. Arcia is a lefty who you can only play against RHP, can't play defense, and swings out of his shoes at everything.

[Darius]

Because that's a really really soft .955 OPS. It's based on 85 at bats. In 285 at bats in AAA his OPS is .788. This screams small sample size. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited to see Vargas go - he's a switch hitter with pop from both sides of the plate. I'd love to see him as a bench player for the Twins next year when Plouffe being gone (one way or the other) puts Sano at 3B and leaves that 1B/DH picture a bit less crowded (well, still Park/Mauer/Vargas but that's a bit more open). But to say that he's earned a closer look is a bit much - he's not some elite prospect who is going to be a future star.

 

Right or wrong, Mauer isn't getting benched. Even though he is not the Joe Mauer of old, fans still get excited when he comes up. He still is a fan favorite (though not a TD favorite). When you have a bad team, they're not benching a guy who puts butts in seats.

If that's a soft OPS, what do you call Plouffe's .680?

 

Also, who at this point is buying tickets to the Twins solely to go watch Joe Mauer? His parents?

 

There are reasons why he's not on the team, but neither of those are included.

 

He had an option, and Plouffe/Mauer make more money.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Darius

[jimmer]

I know for sure that when I see the lineup and Mauer isn't in it, I find it easier to not watch it and go do something else.

 

And my favorite current player is Kepler.

Edited August 23, 2016 by jimmer

[Darius]

I don't think there's ever much risk in signing a guy to a one-year deal. It's not a hampering commitment. His strange struggles this month notwithstanding, Santiago has pretty consistently been the same guy over his five-year career. I say "low-risk" in comparison to someone with more upside and perhaps less of a stable track record.

His peripherals have always suggested he's not very good. Maybe he's just finally regressing to mean?

[TheLeviathan]

 

I know for sure that when I see the lineup and Mauer isn't in it, I find it easier to not watch it and go do something else.

 

And my favorite current player is Kepler.

 

If the Twins marched out Vargas at 1B and Sano at DH the rest of the season I'd hold up bunny ears for reception to tune in. 

 

Mauer does nothing for me.  I've seen his schtick.  I know it has no upside for this team's next hopeful window of contention.  Seeing him reminds me of nothing but continued failures and misplaced sentiments.  

 

That's unfair to Mauer, he's fine, but nevertheless he continues to be an obstacle rather than an asset.

[Darius]

That's why you play him full time, so the small sample size becomes a larger sample size.

 

...and how many hitters can succeed playing every 4th game? Yes Vargas has struggled recently but what else can you expect? Not only physically trying to keep your timing but what about mentally? You make a choice to work on your hitting by being more patient and taking a few pitches ...and it's working. You are getting on base way more often and pitchers are learning they have to throw you strikes. They can't get you out anymore by throwing pitches into the dirt. Result? Better BA/OBP and you are still hitting HRs. You show up to game 1 of a double header and hit 2 HRs ! ...and you are rewarded with a spot on the bench game 2 ...and the next 3 games.

 

Talk about messing with a guys head.

I think this is right on.

 

And I think you can continue in the same vein by saying veteran guys like Plouffe and Mauer, who arent spring chickens and seem to always have nagging injuries, could probably see their performance benefit from a few more days off.

 

I don't know what the debate is about. It's about options and contracts. Nothing else. There is no reason to have Plouffe in the team at this point. He's awful...there is no hope of a waiver deal... There are other guys that can play third, and Sano can start logging a few inning here or there at first. You could easily find 3+ starts per week for Vargas at DH or 1B (Mauer is also still a very good player, for what that's worth. A .380 OBP and elite defense is pretty darn good, I'm not trying to advocate sitting Mauer full time....I think that's crazy...just more days off).

[jimmer]

 

I think this is right on.

And I think you can continue in the same vein by saying veteran guys like Plouffe and Mauer, who arent spring chickens and seem to always have nagging injuries, could probably see their performance benefit from a few more days off.

I don't know what the debate is about. It's about options and contracts. Nothing else. There is no reason to have Plouffe in the team at this point. He's awful...there is no hope of a waiver deal... There are other guys that can play third, and Sano can start logging a few inning here or there at first. You could easily find 3+ starts per week for Vargas at DH or 1B (Mauer is also still a very good player, for what that's worth. A .380 OBP and elite defense is pretty darn good, I'm not trying to advocate sitting Mauer full time....I think that's crazy...just more days off).

apparently  high OBP and fantastic defense makes him an obstacle not an asset :-)

[TheLeviathan]

Playing elite defense at 1B doesn't enamor me enough to wedge a 33 year old into that position come hell or high water.  

 

I don't want him benched either, but for god's sake let's un-entrench him from playing every day.

[Darius]

I don't know what the Twins are thinking but I feel that if the Twins are going to be remotely successful next season Sano has to be the regular third baseman the majority of the time. I think Polanco needs to play SS and Vargas needs to be the normal DH. I just think that Vargas opens up so much more opportunity lineup wise with his switch hitting ability. He was sent down, maybe that was on purpose??? Maybe the Twins view him as their primary DH next year and don't want him sitting around for the next 2 weeks playing every 4th game. Maybe they sent him down to get regular at bats, maybe they saw enough to know that he is the direction they need to travel in, but right now there isnt room. That is what I am hoping for. I think if Buxton evolves and becomes even half the hitter he is as a fielder, and Kepler and Rosario flank him in the OF. with Vargas at DH and Sano at 3B and Polanco at SS that would be a pretty potent lineup. Maybe Park can come off the bench for the next 2 years until Mauer retires and then take over at 1B?? I don't have the answers but that is what I am hoping for.

Sano at 3B, Polanco at SS, Dozier at 2B, and Suzuki at C is going to make any pitcher look bad.

 

This is what I would do starting in September).

 

Sano needs to split time at 1B/DH. Vargas needs ABs there as well. Mauer needs to be dialed back (2 positions with 100% abs = 200% -- Sano gets 75%, Vargas gets 75%, Mauer gets 50%....maybe knock a few off here or there for a Palka or ABW cup of coffee). Plouffe needs to be cut loose. Polanco should be getting most 3B starts (with some at SS and 2B if necessary). Escobar should play it out at SS. Santana and Grossman should give up most OF starts in favor of ABW or Palka. Buxton should get some more September ABs in center.

 

I'd keep the pitching staff about the same, with more of Chagrois, Light,

and maybe some other young relievers.

[old nurse]

 

Arcia and Vargas aren't even close, IMO. Vargas is actually passable at 1B, has very good zone discipline, and is a switch hitter. Arcia is a lefty who you can only play against RHP, can't play defense, and swings out of his shoes at everything.

You are right, but I didn't compare them.  I found it odd that the OP brought up Arcia when talking about Vargas.

[old nurse]

 

Grossman and Santana better start mashing then. Arcia probs a better option than those 2, not to mention Buxton...

Grossman plays defense like Arcia. That is a problem.  OPS +of  1 20. I don't think Arcia was near that.

 

Danny Santana. IDK   Ask Molitor

Edited August 23, 2016 by old nurse