Ages Twins players make their debuts

[greengoblinrulz]

I initially posted this in the Liriano trade thread..but the more I think of it, the more it bothers/interests me.

Since Gardy took over in 2002 (10ys) there have been ONLY 10 players to make their MLB debut at age 23 & under.....NOT including Sept callups for their debuts.

Kevin Slowey 23....Scott Baker 23...Anthony Swarzak 23....Adam Johnson 23....Matt Garza 22....Justin Morneau 22....Wilson Ramos 22.....Alex Burnett 22....Jessie Crain 21....Joe Mauer 20

Sept callups 23 & under

Glen Perkins 23....Chris Parmellee 23...Joe Benson 23...Jose MiJares 23...Rob Bowen 23....Michael Restovich 23.....Jason Kubel 22....JD Durbin 22.....Liam Hendriks 22....Ben Revere 22....Francisco Liriano 21....Alexi Casilla 21

EVERY single one of these 22 guys (except Joe Mauer) was then optioned back to the minors eventually. I undestand that a majortity of players dont stick after their initial debut....but 21 of 22 didnt?? Isnt that incredibly low to you??

 

Now, with only 10 guys......we have obtained 5 players from other organizations in trades who made their debuts 23 & under.....CGomez, DYoung, LOliveras, EEscobar & PHernandez. We have supposedy one of the better farm systems in baseball over the past 10yrs, but we consider other teams prospects, 3 of 5 were 'fringe', better than our own??? Escobar & Hernandez (obtained from what Baseball America has as the 30th ranked farm system) are now the 2 of the 3 youngest players (w/Liam Hendriks) on the ROC roster.

 

Tom Kelly had a reputation as bein terrible with young players & had several highly rated prospects flame out on him while developing very few. Gardy learned under this system & just isnt fond of young players either.

If we are gonna rebuild with youth, a different organizational mindset is gonna be needed. Is Gardy the right guy for this?

[Brock Beauchamp]

The Twins spent most of the past ten years contending for a division title. It's not surprising that most of the young players didn't stick. It should also be noted that out of those guys who did see ML service time (non call-ups) at an early age, Adam Johnson and Swarzak the only guys who didn't stick in the majors after they were sent back down.

 

Look at your last list of ten guys. Young, Gomez... You don't think those two could have used more time in the minors? You don't think they were rushed? Oliveros looks to be in the same boat. He's putting up good numbers in AAA. Escobar and Hernandez, well... Time will tell with those guys.

 

I have almost no problems with how the Twins have handled their minor league players outside of a few glaring exceptions (Jason Bartlett, anyone?). They take a more cautious approach but it's not as if those guys lose anything by spending half a season more in the minors. Their service clock starts when they get the call and the Twins get six years out of them, whether they're called up at age 22 or age 24.

 

It's hardly an indictment of the Twins system that other teams rush their prospects and possibly stunt their development. Do you really want to see Arcia in Minnesota right now, flailing away at breaking balls? What is the point of such a thing?

[greengoblinrulz]

Not argueing against ya Pig, just continueing my own arguement, but defintately thought about the fact that MN contended over that decade...but were they the only club to contend & not develop young players??

On Delmon....in 05/06 he played 147 AAA gms & hit .303/.325/.476 AFTER bein promoted in 05 from AA were in 84gms he hit .336/.386/.582. What more did he have to do in the minors??? He hit .290 that first yr in MN (.284 & .298 next 2)....I think he is what he is....but others say it was the MN system that stopped his power development. He played RF in Tampa (pretty good org) & never an inning there here to see if he was more confortable???

They thought so little of their own 23 yr old Denard Span that in 07, they didnt promote him in Sept of that year (was on 40 man roster already), dealt for another CF that winter but found out he was the better player all along. WHY...cause they dont give their own young guys a chance.

IF anyone is criticizing DET/CHI for rushing prospects, those 2 are the role models of teams in this division this past decade, not MN, as they've also made multiple playoff appearances & ***gasp****World Series appearances. They have contended and won & also had young players, that stuck, make a difference....(Avila, Zumaya, Porcello, AJackson for DET) (Danks, Bekcham, Sale, Reed, Quintana for Sox)

[Brock Beauchamp]

Not argueing against ya Pig, just continueing my own arguement, but defintately thought about the fact that MN contended over that decade...but were they the only club to contend & not develop young players??

On Delmon....in 05/06 he played 147 AAA gms & hit .303/.325/.476 AFTER bein promoted in 05 from AA were in 84gms he hit .336/.386/.582. What more did he have to do in the minors??? He hit .290 that first yr in MN (.284 & .298 next 2)....I think he is what he is....but others say it was the MN system that stopped his power development. He played RF in Tampa (pretty good org) & never an inning there here to see if he was more confortable???

They thought so little of their own 23 yr old Denard Span that in 07, they didnt promote him in Sept of that year (was on 40 man roster already), dealt for another CF that winter but found out he was the better player all along. WHY...cause they dont give their own young guys a chance.

IF anyone is criticizing DET/CHI for rushing prospects, those 2 are the role models of teams in this division this past decade, not MN, as they've also made multiple playoff appearances & ***gasp****World Series appearances. They have contended and won & also had young players make a difference.

No way would I model my franchise after the White Sox and Tigers. The Sox got a mammoth pitching performance, well above what should have been the case, and made a run. They were a good team but their pitching got hot at the right time.

 

The Tigers? Oh god, I think they're one of the dumber franchises in baseball. The Fielder signing is going to sink them in the long term for no good reason.

 

I'll take the slow and steady approach of the Twins franchise over the ups-and-downs of those two teams any day of the week. There's a reason the White Sox farm looks like 1933 Oklahoma. Pretty soon, that's all going to come crashing down on Williams' head.

 

The Twins absolutely developed young players during their decade-long run. After all, eight of those ten players you listed spent quality time on a major league roster and most of them turned into well above average players. The Twins just didn't rush them unnecessarily and I thank them for that.

[FrodaddyG]

There's a reason the White Sox farm looks like 1933 Oklahoma.

So essentially the Twins just picked out two of the most mediocre tumbleweeds they could find?

[Brock Beauchamp]

So essentially the Twins just picked out two of the most mediocre tumbleweeds they could find?

Yeah. Not too thrilled about that. Here's hoping the Twins see something in Hernandez that the rest of the world missed.

[FrodaddyG]

Yeah. Not too thrilled about that. Here's hoping the Twins see something in Hernandez that the rest of the world missed.

I'm guessing they somehow confused the BB rate and K rate columns when looking at stats and assumed he's trending upward.

[greengoblinrulz]

RPig......again, not really argueing against your last post but only 1 stuck in 10 yrs???

MN definately ran into some bad luck with Kubel/Liriano that necessitated the demotion, so that counts also.

You still think you'ld have had more than 1 in 10 yrs that stuck while DET had Avila, Porcello, Jackson, Zumaya & CHI had Sale, Reed, Beckham, Danks.

Funny lookin thru players that Verlander didnt stick (2 July starts in 05 before stickin in 06).

Just personally dont think this front office/manager are ok with younger players (prob most mgrs arent) & I dont have confidence that this team can rebuild that way.....prefer the Carroll/Zumaya/Marquis/Willy/Doumit way of rebuilding. Afraid that could turn MN back into 96-98 style team

[Brock Beauchamp]

RPig......again, not really argueing against your last post but only 1 stuck in 10 yrs???

MN definately ran into some bad luck with Kubel/Liriano that necessitated the demotion, so that counts also.

You still think you'ld have had more than 1 in 10 yrs that stuck while DET had Avila, Porcello, Jackson, Zumaya & CHI had Sale, Reed, Beckham, Danks.

Funny lookin thru players that Verlander didnt stick (2 July starts in 05 before stickin in 06).

Just personally dont think this front office/manager are ok with younger players (prob most mgrs arent) & I dont have confidence that this team can rebuild that way.....prefer the Carroll/Zumaya/Marquis/Willy/Doumit way of rebuilding. Afraid that could turn MN back into 96-98 style team

Well, I think the difference is that I don't really care if a player sticks the first time, just so long as they stick in the long term. Most of the Twins' players you listed did just that... only it took them two or three times to do it.

 

In the end, service time is six years. I'm not sure it really matters how long it takes to get to that six year mark. Personally, I'm all for keeping a guy down a few months or a year longer than some other franchises... it means that you'll get one more cost-controlled year out of the player before free agency. That's pretty significant for a small or mid-market team.

[greengoblinrulz]

Well, I think the difference is that I don't really care if a player sticks the first time, just so long as they stick in the long term. Most of the Twins' players you listed did just that... only it took them two or three times to do it.

 

In the end, service time is six years. I'm not sure it really matters how long it takes to get to that six year mark. Personally, I'm all for keeping a guy down a few months or a year longer than some other franchises... it means that you'll get one more cost-controlled year out of the player before free agency. That's pretty significant for a small or mid-market team.

but we're not anymore....

we're somewhere between 9-12ish this year in salaries....which is still on the upside of mid market. Salary is always important, but its not THE reason to make excuses anymoe.

[gunnarthor]

Unless you have to compare the Twins farmhands to every other teams, you won't know the answer but, to me, it seems normal. Esp for a small market team competing for titles (as the Twins were in that time period you're established).

 

Part of the problem with looking at this is that, for the Twins, you're looking at prospects in all ranges. Mauer was the #1 prospect in baseball (04 and 05) while Baker was never a top 100 guy by BA.com. But we, as Twins fans, follow them. We don't follow those guys for other clubs so the only prospects that really sit with the us are the top guys in other systems who, like Mauer, are more likely to come up quick/stay up. We don't care that Jeff Niemann (#20 2005) didn't establish himself as a MLer until he was 26. Connor Jackson (#40) come in July for a bit back up in Aug at age 23. Chris Burke (#60) was sent up and down every year from 04-07 (starting at age 24) and then traded away. That Ezequiel Astacio (80) only got a cup of coffee at 25 and 26. Or that Greg Miller (100) never made it.

[greengoblinrulz]

Definately got away from what I originally intended to be the main point & that is ...... only 10 players in 10yrs made their debut during the crux of the season (APR-AUG).

While its definate that MN was contending & didnt want to deal with younger players, that is incredibly low to me. We will see in the next few yrs if that changes as Hicks/Arcia/Sano/Buxton/Rosaio/Berrios/Boyd/Harrison etc get ready to make their debuts, but its 'not the Twins Way'.

[Rosterman]

The pain is that both of the guys the Twins got from the White Sox now have their major league clock ticking. Unlike Humber, who the Twins got for Santana, the Twins don't have to keep either player in the majors or lose him, potentially, if they send him to the minors = for at least two seasons.

 

I also look at the two guys and think...Escobar could easily have been designated y the White Sox still this season to free up a roster spot. Hernandez could've been cut from the White Sox 40-man this winter. Assuming there's other bodies in the system more promising. So the Twins got the 39th and 40th player in the current organization.

 

I still can't believe there wasn't other interest in Liriano. But both of the White Sox guys are major league readier than a couple of A-level prospects, I guess, who may have a higher bar.

[FrodaddyG]

But both of the White Sox guys are major league readier than a couple of A-level prospects, I guess, who may have a higher bar.

That's the main point against the trade I have. The Twins don't need mediocrity that's close to MLB ready. The Rochester roster is full of that. They need possible impact talent, even if it's further away. That's what Ryan said he was going for, then took the exact opposite.

[DaveW]

That's the main point against the trade I have. The Twins don't need mediocrity that's close to MLB ready. The Rochester roster is full of that. They need possible impact talent, even if it's further away. That's what Ryan said he was going for, then took the exact opposite.

Who knows if that was option was even on the table though, and with Hernandez perhaps he does have an upside if the Twins can work with him on his curve ball and change up. I mean they have pulled it off before, and don't you dare forget about Butera and his bilingual ways!

[snepp]

and don't you dare forget about Butera and his bilingual ways!

Let's send Drew down to AAA immediately to start working with him.

 

[DaveW]

Let's send Drew down to AAA immediately to start working with him.

 

My thoughts exactly. DeDuno is old enough where he already lapped up everything Butera needed to teach him anyways.

[IdahoPilgrim]

That's the main point against the trade I have. The Twins don't need mediocrity that's close to MLB ready. The Rochester roster is full of that. They need possible impact talent, even if it's further away. That's what Ryan said he was going for, then took the exact opposite.

My guess is he didn't have that option. Who in their right mind was going to offer impact talent for a 2-month roll-of-the-dice acquisition? I suspect it was these two or nothing.

[FrodaddyG]

My guess is he didn't have that option. Who in their right mind was going to offer impact talent for a 2-month roll-of-the-dice acquisition? I suspect it was these two or nothing.

Well, he was up right against the deadline. Oh wait, he still had an extra 3 days and another Liriano start to use to try and field other offers. He took the pupu platter when it was offered instead of using every bit of leverage he had, including another potential start today.

 

What's the worst that could happen by waiting? Suddenly Mateo Tolberto is removed from the offer? Oh, the tragedy! However would a team possibly fill a utility spot with a guy who can't hit?