Article: Ten Things I HATE About The Liriano Trade

[JB_Iowa]

I hate that the Twins just seem to keep doing the same thing over and over.

 

New ideas, energy and enthusisasm in the front office and field staffs, PLEASE.

[DaveW]

This.

Which players sans David Ortiz has gone onto some better career after they left the Twins?

Garza? Not really as he was already effective on the Twins, even though that trade certainly sucked.

[twinswon1991]

32. I hate it that the twins get rid of players with high up side instead of the management team that can't seem to handle the players that do way better when they get away from them.

Spot on! It is a time for a complete organizational overhaul from the GM to the coaches to the medical staff.

[DaveW]

I'd have rather gotten Sanchez or Guthrie.

 

KC and Colorado both did better than us.

How does Sanchez solve anything moving forward though?

[DaveW]

I am now convinced that either Spirit of Dave is Terry Ryan himself or he is the biggest Twins FO booster on earth. How can a guy continually praise the FO especially Ryan when his scouting/drafting has left the Twins with a terrible MiL system and a 90+ loss team in the MLB? Seriously, this guy and his good old boys are clueless.

 

There is no way this team improves over the next 5 years unless they get some starting pitching prospects. That means Span, Willy, and everyone else should be traded NOW. It does them no good to have favorable contracts with hitters when we know they are a 90-100 loss team with those same affordable guys around.

 

Ryan needs to be FIRED immediately before this SHIP SINKS!

I'm not praising Ryan for this trade, I'm just pointing out that it isn't the abortion many are thinking it is. The market sucked, and at the end of the day Liriano was a 5.3 ERA pitcher (5.09 last year), those guys aren't going to bring you back top 100 guys no matter how much you hope they do.

 

Until we hear of a specific trade package that Ryan turned down for Span/Willingham etc it's really stupid to bitch about him not trading them at this point. For all we know the teams have been offering C+ prospects for Span thus far. If you show me a report where the Twins turned down Cingrani or Hamilton for Span then I will agree that Ryan blew it.

 

I agree that Span needs to be traded at some point, but there is no reason to rush it as he will have plenty of value this off-season and on into next season.

[Riverbrian]

I am now convinced that either Spirit of Dave is Terry Ryan!

Could be... Vodkadave is pretty smart. I'll take his posts seriously in case he actually is Terry Ryan.

 

On the other side of the coin... Another thing to consider is that Terry Ryan kicked your puppy or something. lol. ;)

[JB_Iowa]

Which players sans David Ortiz has gone onto some better career after they left the Twins?

Garza? Not really as he was already effective on the Twins, even though that trade certainly sucked.

 

I changed my comment -- probably while you were writing this -- because I went back and re-read the original posters last sentence.

 

But I still believe that the Twins need an injection of new life in their management -- front office and field staff.

[Riverbrian]

Another thing on Vodkadave. I read his first post on the Liriano Trade... It was a What the hell post and we were all thinking that at first. I then read vodkadave subsequently reason the trade out as the thread moved on.

 

He gets two points from me for that.

[Jeremy Nygaard]

Is anyone starting to get the impression that the other GMs know that it's not that hard to "outfox" our front office? Is the Twins FO that guy in our fantasy leagues that teams always try to make a deal with because sometimes they're dumb enough to hit the "accept" button when they meant to hit "decline"?

 

This deal had everything to do with the bottom line and barely anything to do with anything else. The Twins added some warm bodies... at positions of "need"... that do what the Twins like (throw strikes and play defense).

[DJSim22]

Yeah, this is just bull****. What "past" examples are you talking about? Do you and Thrylos share sources that share these imaginary "the Twins wouldn't trade Willingham for Bundy straight up" scenarios?

 

I have yet to see one reported offer for Span or any other Twin player yet.

Okay internet tough guy...

 

I have yet to hear of any reported attempt to sign Liriano this year either, but that didn't stop you from writing that. Where are your examples, or are you full of ****?

 

Have you heard the man speak? Have you seen how he handled his past few trades? He can't live off the A.J. trade forever.

[DaveW]

Another thing on Vodkadave. I read his first post on the Liriano Trade... It was a What the hell post and we were all thinking that at first. I then read vodkadave subsequently reason the trade out as the thread moved on.

 

He gets two points from me for that.

Yeah, it was just a gut reaction because of a few things:

1. As fans we ALWAYS want stud players in return.

2. As Twins fans we know that Liriano still possess the nice ability to blow away batters.

3. Many of us were guilty (me!) of thinking that Liriano would bring back a nice prospect package.

4. I had never heard of either of the two prospects we got back.

 

But after reading up on these guys it appears one or both could eventually help out our big league club, and at the end of the day we were trading a guy who has posted a 5.31 and 5.09 ERA in the past two seasons, projection is great and all but at the end of the day results matter.

 

I still at this moment wish the Twins would have signed Liriano to a 2-3 year deal and I wish they could have fleeced some dumb GM out of some high upside 19 year old. Just because that didn't happen doesn't mean I'm ready to crap all over the orginzation and run Ryan out of town. These past two years have been frustrating but I have hope that Ryan can rebuild this club, its not going to come over night but once we hit the free angency we should have a better idea of his long term plan. Not to mention he still might be able to trade Pavano and Capps before August 31st (plus Span could be traded any minute now as well)

 

It's one thing to be dissapointed to lose Liriano for so little at the end of the day, its another thing to use it as some bizzarre justification to fire everyone in the org, but the majority of the people who are saying that have been crying about Ryan's leadership the whole year anyways, even going as so far as to making up reports/sources of him turning down trades that were never offered. Obviously I will sound like a ridiculous homer compared to that garbage, and frankly I am glad I do.

[DJSim22]

I'm not praising Ryan for this trade, I'm just pointing out that it isn't the abortion many are thinking it is. The market sucked, and at the end of the day Liriano was a 5.3 ERA pitcher (5.09 last year), those guys aren't going to bring you back top 100 guys no matter how much you hope they do.

 

Until we hear of a specific trade package that Ryan turned down for Span/Willingham etc it's really stupid to bitch about him not trading them at this point. For all we know the teams have been offering C+ prospects for Span thus far. If you show me a report where the Twins turned down Cingrani or Hamilton for Span then I will agree that Ryan blew it.

 

I agree that Span needs to be traded at some point, but there is no reason to rush it as he will have plenty of value this off-season and on into next season.

For all we know TR has been offered two B prospects for Span so far. You can play that game all day.

 

Who is to say Span's value will go up next year? A year less on a contract friendly deal, a year older, another year with a possible concussion, and another year we block another OF while we lose 90 games. Do we have to rush a deal right now, no. Is it likely his value will be higher next year? I doubt it.

[Thrylos]

How do we know the Twins didn't negoiate with Liriano for a new contract?

Unless Ryan lied openly when he said they did not, then we know it from the horse's mouth.

[DaveW]

Okay internet tough guy...

 

I have yet to hear of any reported attempt to sign Liriano this year either, but that didn't stop you from writing that. Where are your examples, or are you full of ****?

 

Have you heard the man speak? Have you seen how he handled his past few trades? He can't live off the A.J. trade forever.

I said who knows if the Twins tried to resign Liriano at any point in this season. We didn't hear anything that indicated anything either way, other than a few reports last week that the Twins were closet to 100% trading Liriano.

 

What past few trades do you speak of? What do you mean "how he handled his past few trades"?

You realize he wasn't the GM for the Young and Santana trades, right?

[DaveW]

Unless Ryan lied openly when he said they did not, then we know it from the horse's mouth.

Did not see that, either way like I mentioned in another post if the Twins had no desire to keep Liriano around, why not trade him for what you can get instead of letting him walk for nothing?

 

Hell, I wanted the Twins to bring Liriano back for 2013+, but there were several posters here who didn't want him back (50/50 split).

[DaveW]

For all we know TR has been offered two B prospects for Span so far. You can play that game all day.

 

 

Yeah, but I'm not the one claiming that Ryan has screwed up by not trading Span thus far (which is what you have been doing). People are screaming that Ryan has dropped the ball by not trading Span already, yet haven't produced one report of an offer. Seriously, its just bitching for the sake of bitching.

[DJSim22]

Yeah, it was just a gut reaction because of a few things:

1. As fans we ALWAYS want stud players in return.

2. As Twins fans we know that Liriano still possess the nice ability to blow away batters.

3. Many of us were guilty (me!) of thinking that Liriano would bring back a nice prospect package.

4. I had never heard of either of the two prospects we got back.

 

But after reading up on these guys it appears one or both could eventually help out our big league club, and at the end of the day we were trading a guy who has posted a 5.31 and 5.09 ERA in the past two seasons, projection is great and all but at the end of the day results matter.

 

I still at this moment wish the Twins would have signed Liriano to a 2-3 year deal and I wish they could have fleeced some dumb GM out of some high upside 19 year old. Just because that didn't happen doesn't mean I'm ready to crap all over the orginzation and run Ryan out of town. These past two years have been frustrating but I have hope that Ryan can rebuild this club, its not going to come over night but once we hit the free angency we should have a better idea of his long term plan. Not to mention he still might be able to trade Pavano and Capps before August 31st (plus Span could be traded any minute now as well)

 

It's one thing to be dissapointed to lose Liriano for so little at the end of the day, its another thing to use it as some bizzarre justification to fire everyone in the org, but the majority of the people who are saying that have been crying about Ryan's leadership the whole year anyways, even going as so far as to making up reports/sources of him turning down trades that were never offered. Obviously I will sound like a ridiculous homer compared to that garbage, and frankly I am glad I do.

I never expected stud players in return, but getting guys who are not even top 10 in a crappy minor league system is not accetable. At best we have a mediocre reliever who doesn't miss bats and a utility player whom I would argue is not as good as some we already have in our system. If you are going to trade Liriano for this type of package, you might as well find another team with a deeper system and you might as well get two pitchers or a corner infielder. The utility guy makes little sense when we have plenty of these type of guys already in the system who are more highly regarded.

[johnnydakota]

I read the entire WSI forum thread last night (whitesoxinteractive), their initial reaction was generally positive, and they're a pretty high-strung bunch on that board.

or maybe he has no future and the white soxs wanted the real players to play every day and develope?????

[Thrylos]

Did not see that, either way like I mentioned in another post if the Twins had no desire to keep Liriano around, why not trade him for what you can get instead of letting him walk for nothing?

 

Hell, I wanted the Twins to bring Liriano back for 2013+, but there were several posters here who didn't want him back (50/50 split).

 

I think that the Twins had no chance of re-signing Liriano after this season and the best that they could have done would have been to give him a qualifying offer and get a supplementary pick. On the other hand, I think that an MLB-ready (albeit end of the rotation) Lefty starter and an MLB-ready defensive whiz are probably better than most of Terry Ryan's supplementary draft picks historically.

 

That said, the reasons I dislike this trade are:

 

a. I think that they could have done better, if you look at what other "rental pitchers" brought (e.g. the Marlins-Tigers trade)

b. I think that Liriano is a better pitcher than he had shown with the Twins' coaching and he might flourish elsewhere. Unfortunately, they traded him in the division. If they traded him to the Pirates, I would have no problem with that.

 

 

Those are my 2 major objections. And I really think that it is a shame that Liriano did not do better lately with the Twins and the coaches and manager do share some of the blame for this...

[Dilligaf69]

Yep, pretty much all of that.

 

 

Isn't it possible Liriano could've had another bad outing today and thus lowered even more his trade value, or even maybe got hurt?? then we would here that we should've traded him earlier when he was going good. The fact is there is probably no way we would be satisfied and your right we as always have no idea what was being offered by other teams we just assume it was better then this. Maybe the market for a talented but extremely enigmatic pitcher wasn't as high as we as Twins fans hoped. The bottom line is it's Liriano's fault his value wasn't s high as it should be, he gets rattled too easily on the mound when things are going south on him. He's so maddingly inconsistent that he probably scared off other suitors not willing to give up much then a couple mid level prospects.

[Obie]

"I hate the Twins traded a high-upside player to division rival without knowing if he was willing or maybe desperate to sign a long-term extension."

 

I guess you missed the news that he blew out his elbow five years ago and has been wildly inconsistent and consistently wild and mediocre since.

[drivlikejehu]

Clubs can pick up players like Escobar and Hernandez off the waiver wire. They have almost no value at all. If it's true that Liriano had no value in the eyes of every other MLB team, then just keep him and see how he does down the stretch. If he pitches well then the qualifying offer is a consideration.

 

This reminds me of the Santana deal, in that the Twins decided they had to trade someone and thus accepted a joke offer, when in fact standing pat was a perfectly viable option.

 

It's just hard for me to believe that TR didn't even get one offer that included an actual prospect. Not even a good prospect, but maybe a 20 year old with some small possibility of upside. As opposed to AAAA players that can be acquired at any time without much difficulty.

[notoriousgod71]

How does Sanchez solve anything moving forward though?

It doesn't but just pointing out both teams got a better return for their **** than we did ours.

[Obie]

"I started making a list of the top 10 things I hate about this trade for today’s Gleeman and the Geek podcast. I’m up to #28."

 

Try breathing into a paper bag.

[snepp]

Try breathing into a paper bag.

And if that doesn't work, you can always vomit in it.

[one_eyed_jack]

I still don't understand why so many are so convinced that TR could have gotten more than he did.

 

Again, we're talking about a rental of a guy who got relegated to the bullpen a couple of months ago because he was getting shelled every single start. Why would anyone give up anything of value for a starting pitcher who was so bad earlier in the year that he couldn't hold on to is spot in the worst rotation in baseball?

 

Even dumbest of MLB front offices is going to know better than to value a guy based on a good month or two while ignoring the rest of his recent body of work.

 

Maybe it's because he went to the White Sox, but I dont' see why that's such a big deal. Look at the standings. We ain't catching them. And the additional of Frankie is just as likely to torpedo the Whities chances of getting to the postseason than it is strengthen them.

[Thrylos]

I still don't understand why so many are so convinced that TR could have gotten more than he did..

Did you see what the Marlins got from Detroit for Sanchez and a futility infielder?

[DaveW]

Sanchez is a significantly better pitcher then Liriano and infante is one of the better hitting MI in baseball this year. Also the Tigers are apparently planning on extending Sanchez long term and were desperate for MI help. Liriano is a guy who has a 5.25 ERA over his last 220 IP

[Brock Beauchamp]

Did you see what the Marlins got from Detroit for Sanchez and a futility infielder?

Sanchez is far and away a superior pitcher to Liriano and the Tigers will almost surely try to extend him. Sanchez has almost no question marks surrounding him while Liriano is rife with questions.

[Thrylos]

Sanchez is far and away a superior pitcher to Liriano and the Tigers will almost surely try to extend him. Sanchez has almost no question marks surrounding him while Liriano is rife with questions.

 

I bet Liriano does better than Sanchez the rest of the year. Sanchez' first ever AL start bombed. He is a pitch to contact guy and these type of guys might work ok in the NL. Not the AL.