Article: Twins Trade Francisco Liriano To White Sox

[Highabove]

I call B.S. And this has been covered in other threads. I don't think the numbers are on your side.

 

Certainly, some pitchers have gotten better post-Twins. Many others have gotten better after joining the Twins. Many others we will never know about because they didn't move. The idea that we should be ready for frustration at the hands of Liriano is speculation piled on top of speculation, all of which flies in the face of actual history.

It's all speculation.

[snepp]

I'm intrigued by the SS to be honest.

 

It's not every day you can bring in a guy who can't hit for average, but makes up for it by being unable to draw a walk.

 

Well it's not every day, but it is every day game after a night game.

 

 

Fantastic.

[Bark's Lounge]

I don't think the start tomorrow would have made a difference. Let's assume it was the best offer. Trust me... It's easier to swallow if you assume that.

 

The best offer came from the team that LIT him up in his last start. His value was going to be the same.

 

Now this is a guess... Maybe the White Sox threw in one of the players or upgraded one of the players if the Twins would agree before Liriano starts tomorrow.

 

Another guess is that the deal was out there... Maybe TR spent today on the phone calling the Orioles...nthe Pirates...The Dodgers and said... I'm gonna have to take this trade with the White Sox... It's my best offer. Are you sure we can't talk about Britton... Player X and Y and Z for the any team he's been talking with.

 

One last chance before I pull the trigger. Ok... Good luck to you... Keep in touch...

 

Maybe TR got Liriano... The lesser deal out the way so he can focus on trading Span for a bigger deal in the next few days.

 

Who knows... But I think we are all dealing with trying to find a place to store the feeling of over cooked expectations. I know I am but it is what it is.

Hey RB, your points are outstanding and I do not think we are off on our philosophy by much. There was no sense in trading Liriano to the Sux for the package they received. The Players we received will never help us in any way or form as a winning ball club. Essentially we received nothing for Liriano, which is why I would have preferred to keep him and then lose him to FA. Pole position, poise, self respect and professionalism is what I want to see out of our GM. Chump trading is for the weak, we don't need this bull****.

[snepp]

Carlos Gomez is jealous of Escobar's plate discipline.

[glunn]

For fun I just looked at a White Sox fansite. As you can see for yourself, they don't seem very concerned about losing the two players that the Sox gave up in this trade.

[Rivas#1Fan]

Let's be honest. This trade will likely end up having no effect on either team. The two "prospects" the Twins received will likely never contribute to the Major League club in any meaningful way. On the other hand Liriano will likely continue to be Liriano for the 2+ months the White Sox have him. He'll be just as likely to knock them out of the playoff race as he will be to propel them into October. The only winner will likely be Wrigley gum and their potential advertising campaign on account of Liriano's new habit.

[Highabove]

I'm sure that remaining and saved 2 million is now earmarked for SP FA in the offseason rather than just... well.... saved. [sarcasm]

The 2 million saved, is probably earmarked for the Pohlad's pocket.

[glunn]

After looking at the writeup on Hernandez on the Sox website, I now feel a little better. He is listed there as the Sox's 20th best prospect, and they say that he can throw in the low 90's. If he can improve his breaking ball, he could be valuable, especially if Parker is willing to do an article breaking down what he is doing wrong.

 

Note that you have to click the right arrow on the Sox website to get to him.

[Riverbrian]

Hey RB' date=' your points are outstanding and I do not think we are off on our philosophy by much. There was no sense in trading Liriano to the Sux for the package they received. The Players we received will never help us in any way or form as a winning ball club. Essentially we received nothing for Liriano, which is why I would have preferred to keep him and then lose him to FA. Pole position, poise, self respect and professionalism is what I want to see out of our GM. Chump trading is for the weak, we don't need this bull****.[/quote']

 

Yeah... I'm with ya... It's hard to shake off... I was watching for trade announcements every day... Hoping for that deal that blows my socks off... This wasn't it. I'm not satisfied.

 

But what If the Twins scouts like Escobar and project him to hit a little. Maybe they saw him down in Velenzuela and have been following him for 6 years and still think he could put it together.

 

I don't know but my guess would be that the White Sox came up to the Twins Price and not the other way around or the Twins would have held out longer.

 

I just don't think the market was there. As one eyed jack said perfectly. It's a 2 month rental of an enigma. Williams is rolling the dice and betting about what he can afford to lose. Williams would be crucified if Liriano goes into head case mode and it cost them Nestor Molina.

 

I'm bummed... But I'm not going to hang the GM unless someone tells me that he took this deal over a deal for Shelby Miller or someone similiar.

 

Besides... Escobar is a great SS name.

[old nurse]

Outside of Slowey and Silva,

A good number of ex Twins Pitchers ended up finding themselves, once they left the Twins.

I will throw in Jose Mijares who was a head case here, flourishing with the Royals.

We all know the rest of the list.

Be ready for more frustration.

Lohse and Garza because the manager did not like them thus they were traded. Mijares you won't know for a couple more years. Many may have had one good year, but not an extended career.

[howeda7]

First of all, you have to offer him more than $12 million and have him turn it down to get a comp pick. I don't think Liriano's turning that down, because despite the "wisdom" shown on this board, major league GMs know he isn't worth that money. So we'd be stuck sinking too much money into a guy with a 5 ERA, and come next season we're in the exact same position.

 

Second of all, you get one sandwich pick, and statistically, that one pick isn't likely to be a good major league player. Hell, many of those picks don't even make it to AAA. On the other hand, you trade Liriano for what we traded him for, and you get... two AAA players! Including one who was just traded for Carlos Quentin. I think some people here might be bad at math.

+1. The reality is 75% of people were going to bitch and moan about this regardless. Offering him $12 million was no safe bet and the pick is not necessarily better. They're also save > $2 million in salary by doing it now. The pitcher is at least interesting and if the IF'er is Tolbert 2.0 that's not the worst trade ever made.

[edavis0308]

The thing that worries me the most is that TR is quoted via Strib that he thinks the pitcher has the stuff to stick as a starter, and he doesn't think he fits the pitch to contact mold. Also, the infielder has the potential to be a regular in the bigs (paraphrasing).

 

How splendid.

[johnnydakota]

why didnt we just ask for terry doyle back...ryan sucks he need to change his depends and find a new retirement home

[Highabove]

The thing that worries me the most is that TR is quoted via Strib that he thinks the pitcher has the stuff to stick as a starter, and he doesn't think he fits the pitch to contact mold. Also, the infielder has the potential to be a regular in the bigs (paraphrasing).

 

How splendid.

Does Ryan believe that he might have filled one of the starting Pitching spots next year?

[old nurse]

The thing that worries me the most is that TR is quoted via Strib that he thinks the pitcher has the stuff to stick as a starter, and he doesn't think he fits the pitch to contact mold. Also, the infielder has the potential to be a regular in the bigs (paraphrasing).

 

How splendid.

What would you expect him to say? We traded an erratic pitcher that pitched maybe 5 good games in two years. We were not going to offer a qualifying offer. We got two stiffs and saved a few bucks.

Ryan should talk optimistically about what he gets back in trade. Hernandez could be the next Joe Mays. Hopefully without the injury. If the Twins play good defense, it could work short term. Or Hernandez could have Liriano's record over the last two years.

As a fan you have to hope that the Twins would spend the money of the contracts of Liriano and Pavano on two decent free agents. As a fan you should probably boycott a game if they don't sign at least one. (Make it the game with Houston).

[beckmt]

We got 2 players for Liriano, which is 2 more than we would have had. This also will cover the Twins if either of the two following happens.

1. We can get a decent offer for Jamie Carroll.

2. Alex Castilla does not come back next year (about 50/50) in my book.

It is possible that a team would want both Span and Carroll, (read Dodgers), so this might be the front end for more trades.

 

Even if neither of the above happen, we are minus 2 mil in salery and have 2 possible major league players for a pitcher who was not going to be here next year.

[drivlikejehu]

Of course they got less than the value of a compensation pick. TRfail.

[raindog]

What would you expect him to say? We traded an erratic pitcher that pitched maybe 5 good games in two years.

He just had a stretch of 10 good games in a row.

[nokomismod]

We traded 12 starts. We did not trade any member of the 2013 team.

Well said. Plus Liriano might just become his old evil twin self at any moment. Ryan was trying to get a pitcher with more upside at a single or double A level (he said as much in an interview), but it looks like this was the best deal we could land. I'm guessing the middle infielder will be a cheap replacement for Casilla who will not be resigned.

[Mike Sixel]

So much for only moving players for high upside guys. At first glance, this is a pretty mediocre trade. Having read the STrib article on July trades by Ryan, my hopes are pretty much dashed at this point. Clearly both players were rushed. The Sox were considered to have one of the worst systems in all of MLB, and I can't believe they couldn't get one upside guy for Liriano from someone.

[stringer bell]

I just read through the two threads about the Liriano trade. I find it ironic that so many are thinking the Twins should have gotten more for fragile Frankie. Just like with Delmon, an uptick in performance seems to make everyone think he is an All-Star, rather than an inconsistent tease. I know nothing about the two former White Sox, but I do know that the Twins do a pretty good job of acquiring prospects. I also find it ironic that so many think that saving $1.5M by dumping Casilla is a given, but spending $12.5 as a qualifying offer for Liriano was no big deal. Unless Liriano continues his run of great pitching (minus the WS start last Monday) he won't get close to $12.5M and the Twins weren't going to risk that kind of money just so they could get a sandwich pick. It really doesn't matter that the Sox got Liriano. He is a free agent at the end of the year and the Twins aren't contenders this year.

[Mike Sixel]

I agree with those saying that Liriano was not going to be offered arbitration, and there would be no pick to the Twins (or, if they did offer, he'd accept). So, if this was the best offer, so be it.

[jlovren]

It seems as though everyone forgets what Liriano is all about. He had one good year (2006) and has never been anywhere close to that since. He had one decent year (2010) and has a ton of of up and down starts. Take out 2006 and you have a record of 38-48 and an ERA somewhere around 4.7 to 5.0. The Twins are going to save 2 million for the remainder of the year, and more than likely a lot more next year and will hopefully sign a more consistent pitcher. It is completely unrealistic to expect two B level prospects for a D level pitcher (stats alone, not potential). In my opinion, good riddance and thank you for less headaches.

[fatbeer]

i agree, we got nothing out of this. I just do not get this dumping of players to division rivals for no talent in return (delmon last year to tigers, and now this).

Heres why theres no logic to the trading to your rivals thing, who did we trade Pierzinsky to? If you rate package A higher then package B you do package A every time. Liriano was our 6th best player at best, he'll be about the 10th best White Sox player, and probably won't play for the White Sox next year.

[Thrylos]

I think Escobar's career MiLB OPS summarizes everything you need to know for this trade: .666

[kirbyelway]

I giver TR the benefit of the doubt. I don't know what you people thought we were going to get for Frankie, but I do know you need to be realistic. We got a guy who will battle Florimon for next years utility job and a possible 5th starter-long relief guy. It's not like we don't need bodies in these areas.

[gunnarthor]

He just had a stretch of 10 good games in a row.

Technically, he had a stretch of 8 good games out of his last 11. His starts on June 10, July 1 and July 23 weren't good. (Although better than his normal stuff).

[nicksaviking]

The problem isn't with Liriano as much as the fact that he isn't the only player the Twins gave away. Next spring, who is goinng to lose a spot on the 40-man because of these two? There are several expendable players on the roster, but it can be easily argued that these guys are just as expendable and useless. A powerless, speed deprived, utility infielder who can't get on base looks to be the worst player that will be on the Twins 40-man. If the Twins again need to clear roster space, Escobar looks to be the first player I'd dump. Next year will likely be his last option year, so unless he's good enough to stay on the 25-man all of 2014, he'll be put on waivers the first time the Twins actually need some offense to replace him. He might clear waivers, but then that will go to show what the rest of the league feels about him.

[notoriousgod71]

To recap:

 

Pedro Hernandez, Eduardo Escobar, and Deolis Guerra=Johan Santana and Francisco Liriano

[TheLeviathan]

This is either a strong indication of our inept scouting or the league perception of Liriano. Either way we lose.