Dozens killed by truck in France

[Bark's Lounge]

I know I reference this guy often, but if there is a realistic solution/answer, he gives one of them starting at the 3:20 section of this video clip. Please accept my apology for it being Fox News.

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Sure, the oppressive dogma allows such hate and fanaticism to take root, but no more than Christianity allowed for the KKK to shroud itself in faux-religion.  

 

That's still a problem!  The "allowance" is EXACTLY the issue.

 

Christianity, by and large, has disavowed and shunned groups with those issues.  In Islam, they convene counsels of elders who are allowed 3 women a day to be stoned or burned alive in the name of honor.  

 

The left has no problem denouncing Christianity for basically not liking homosexuality (a deserving reaction) but can't stand the idea of outwardly rejecting an entire ethics and justice system based on oppression and hate that looks more like medieval Christianity.  Why the total hypocrisy?

 

This IS a product of Islam.  It's time to use every means, short of war, to start fighting this.  To give the reformers what they need to reform the religion.  That's the root cause.

[DaveW]

 

Well, perhaps we should start by all agreeing that everytime someone says "It's only a tiny fraction of Islamists!" - we agree that person is in denial.

But it is, only a tiny fraction of Islamists support ISIS or are involved in ISIS. That's really all I care about "defeating", if we are suddenly in the "we care about human rights issues EVERYWHERE and need to make sure those things are fixed in the middle east" then we have a pretty large uphill battle ahead of us, including most of Africa, parts of Europe and Asia in addition to the middle east. Funny that I haven't heard much about helping the African people other than a brief KONY bit.

 

It's pretty clear that going into the middle east with force and trying to push our "values" fails spectacularly.

[DaveW]

 

 

 

 

Christianity, by and large, has disavowed and shunned groups with those issues.

 

You clearly haven't spent much time in the bible belt.

[TheLeviathan]

 

For my part, suggesting that Islam should go fix itself, or that we somehow should fix or change Islam is a total nonstarter of a solution; I'd rather address what our culture has done to create the current violent climate. 

 

Sub "American Racism" for "Islam" and "black people" for "our culture" and let me know how much you still love that logic.

[TheLeviathan]

 

But it is, only a tiny fraction of Islamists support ISIS or are involved in ISIS. That's really all I care about "defeating", if we are suddenly in the "we care about human rights issues EVERYWHERE and need to make sure those things are fixed in the middle east" then we have a pretty large uphill battle ahead of us, including most of Africa, parts of Europe and Asia in addition to the middle east. Funny that I haven't heard much about helping the African people other than a brief KONY bit.

 

It's pretty clear that going into the middle east with force and trying to push our "values" fails spectacularly.

 

The overwhelming majority of Muslims support Sharia Law.  You should read up on it.  I know it sounds like a right-wing boogeyman, but it's highly regressive, oppressive, and scary.

 

So, no, this point doesn't stand.

 

You clearly haven't spent much time in the bible belt.

 

 

Where in the Bible belt are lynchings, throwing people off buildings, or honor killings happening?  I'd like that sourced please.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Sub "American Racism" for "Islam" and "black people" for "our culture" and let me know how much you still love that logic.

 

I'm not advocating Christianity change, for all it's faults. I'm asking them not to impose laws on the rest of us.....but if they want to live in a way I wouldn't, that's up to them. Same with Muslims. 

 

If your plan is to change the mind of every Muslim about Sharia law.....well, good luck with that plan.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'm not advocating Christianity change, for all it's faults. I'm asking them not to impose laws on the rest of us.....but if they want to live in a way I wouldn't, that's up to them. Same with Muslims. 

 

If your plan is to change the mind of every Muslim about Sharia law.....well, good luck with that plan.

 

I'm asking them to change.  I have no problem correcting someone else's broken moral system.  That said, if they want to slink into a hole, not bother anyone, and keep their hate to themselves?  Sure, I'll leave them alone.  

 

But Islamic extremists are not keeping it to themselves, they are actively spreading it and mutilating, killing, raping, and terrorizing anyone that disagrees with them.  So, yeah, call me crazy - I'm asking them to change.

 

And, again Mike, if the answers were easy this wouldn't be a problem.  I want Muslims to drop Sharia Law and those oppressive beliefs in favor of more moderate ones.  (You know, that many Muslims practice!  It can be done....)  I'm not going to run away from the right solution because it's hard.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I'm asking them to change.  I have no problem correcting someone else's broken moral system.  That said, if they want to slink into a hole, not bother anyone, and keep their hate to themselves?  Sure, I'll leave them alone.  

 

But Islamic extremists are not keeping it to themselves, they are actively spreading it and mutilating, killing, raping, and terrorizing anyone that disagrees with them.  So, yeah, call me crazy - I'm asking them to change.

 

And, again Mike, if the answers were easy this wouldn't be a problem.  I want Muslims to drop Sharia Law and those oppressive beliefs in favor of more moderate ones.  (You know, that many Muslims practice!  It can be done....)  I'm not going to run away from the right solution because it's hard.

 

Fair, what do we do for the next 20 years, while we do that larger (probably very good) goal? I too would prefer there were no regressive awful groups in the world....but something has to happen in the meantime.

[USMCTwin]

 

You clearly haven't spent much time in the bible belt.

 

I have and you couldn't be more wrong.

[PseudoSABR]

 

That's still a problem!  The "allowance" is EXACTLY the issue.

 

Christianity, by and large, has disavowed and shunned groups with those issues.  In Islam, they convene counsels of elders who are allowed 3 women a day to be stoned or burned alive in the name of honor.  

 

The left has no problem denouncing Christianity for basically not liking homosexuality (a deserving reaction) but can't stand the idea of outwardly rejecting an entire ethics and justice system based on oppression and hate that looks more like medieval Christianity.  Why the total hypocrisy?

 

This IS a product of Islam.  It's time to use every means, short of war, to start fighting this.  To give the reformers what they need to reform the religion.  That's the root cause.

Look, I can acknowledge the social problematic realities created by a hosts of religions without suggesting the solution is to get Christians to change their religion or whatever it is you're proposing about Islam.    

 

Stop trying to state what is clearly your opinion as an absolute fact;  one I and other reasonable people disagree with it.  Ignoring Israel, post WW-II carve up, propping up dictators, Iraq War(s), toppling regimes, the oil economy, etc. etc. is just being obtuse.  

 

Again, IMHO, Islam is the a very effective vehicle of hate and violence, however, it is not the cause of that hate and violence.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

Fair, what do we do for the next 20 years, while we do that larger (probably very good) goal? I too would prefer there were no regressive awful groups in the world....but something has to happen in the meantime.

 

Well, with the military you have to wipe out the group most fanatic.  But you do exactly what Obama did and share the workload.  It makes it more difficult for the next to create an evil infidel bad guy to preach against.  The more help from Muslim nations at eradicating ISIS...the better.  

 

You fight back in whatever ways possible - economic, social, political - to lift up reformers and protect them.  Implement positive programs in countries near there - provide asylum and education to anyone willing to cross into those borders.  A UN sanctioned base for that in Turkey or France or Italy might be a huge boon.  

 

There might be many more, it's hard to get into specifics without classified information and more in depth knowledge of the areas.  

 

But let's be real clear - this isn't going to go away.  Medieval Christianity didn't just go away.  It spread death and violence everywhere for centuries until it finally lost out to reform.  We've got the same fight coming, but with better tools and more global support to fight it.  And we need to.  But we can't do that with our heads in the sand pretending it's not the real problem.

[DaveW]

 

I have and you couldn't be more wrong.

I have as well, 7 years of my life unfortunately, what I saw/experienced were a high number of people who still look HIGHLY down on any non white person (especially blacks and Mexicans) as well as people who look down on homosexuals. The more "reasonable" ones would basically say racist stuff like "Well, I don't have an issue with black people, but I will be damned if I let my daughter ever bring one home!"

 

While they won't come out and basically say "I support the KKK!" their actions and comments more or less are in line with the KKK when it comes to inferiority and the like.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Look, I can acknowledge the social problematic realities created by a hosts of religions without suggesting the solution is to get Christians to change their religion or whatever it is you're proposing about Islam.    

 

Stop trying to state what is clearly your opinion as an absolute fact;  one I and other reasonable people disagree with it.  Ignoring Israel, post WW-II carve up, propping up dictators, Iraq War(s), toppling regimes, the oil economy, etc. etc. is just being obtuse.  

 

Again, IMHO, Islam is the a very effective vehicle of hate and violence, however, it is not the cause of that hate and violence.  

 

It is the justification for it.  The causes long stopped mattering.  Hell, many terrible things have been done for made up causes - what matters is how you drive people to be motivated.  And that is where religion is the key.  

 

I don't want Muslims to "change" their religion.  I want them to change their practice.  Thousands have, most of them here in America.  I don't understand the fear of identifying the problem.  You're delusional and hypocritical at the same time. 

[PseudoSABR]

 

Sub "American Racism" for "Islam" and "black people" for "our culture" and let me know how much you still love that logic.

Now American Racism is akin to religion?  Give me a break.  Islam doesn't have  legal structure that would fix systemic violence, like the police departments have.  

 

If all the Islam leaders (beyond ISIS or whatever) mandate terrorism stop, it would not stop.  The cause is deeper than the policies of a religion.   it's economic, cultural and political.  You just keep ignoring these elements.  You really think Israel has nothing to do with the rise of jihadism?  Or the Iraq War? Give me a break.

[DaveW]

 

The overwhelming majority of Muslims support Sharia Law.  You should read up on it.  I know it sounds like a right-wing boogeyman, but it's highly regressive, oppressive, and scary.

 

I am very versed in Muslims, their feelings and these "studies"etc

 

I am talking about ISIS, which is the current main threat to the US/Western culture, random countries supporting Sharia law does NOT mean they support ISIS in the least. Stop making it seem like the majority of Muslims are calling for bombings/killings of innocent people.

 

Per your pew research:

a Pew Research Center survey of Muslims in 39 countries asked Muslims whether they want sharia law, a legal code based on the Quran and other Islamic scripture, to be the official law of the land in their country. Responses on this question vary widely. Nearly all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) support sharia law as official law. But in some other countries, especially in Eastern Europe and Central Asia – including Turkey (12%), Kazakhstan (10%) and Azerbaijan (8%) – relatively few favor the implementation of sharia law.

 

 

 

So it's not really a religion issue, it's specific countries (mostly poor countries with very little education, economic opportunity etc) issue. How do we fix this? An outpouring of resources and education to these countries, and yes, it's not going to be a quick/easy fix, it will take generations, but that is how the world works.

Keep in mind, in the US there are still several states that prefer to NOT give equal rights to: Women, Homosexuals and minorities. That doesn't mean "Christianity" is to blame or even the US is to blame, it's specific states(regions), and just like above, most of those states are the ones who lack good education and good economic opportunity.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I am very versed in Muslims, their feelings and these "studies"etc

 

I am talking about ISIS, which is the current main threat to the US/Western culture, random countries supporting Sharia law does NOT mean they support ISIS in the least. Stop making it seem like the majority of Muslims are calling for bombings/killings of innocent people.

 

Per your pew research:

 

 

So it's not really a religion issue, it's specific countries (mostly poor countries with very little education, economic opportunity etc) issue. How do we fix this? An outpouring of resources and education to these countries, and yes, it's not going to be a quick/easy fix, it will take generations, but that is how the world works.

Keep in mind, in the US there are still several states that prefer to give equal rights to: Women, Homosexuals and minorities. That doesn't mean "Christianity" is to blame or even the US is to blame, it's specific states(regions), and just like above, most of those states are the ones who lack good education and good economic opportunity.

 

Are you not aware that in those countries they will reject it on the basis of religion?  Because they will.  So, yes, it is about religion.  The countries that have a low measure for implementing Sharia are generally run by moderate regimes that have fewer ties between the faith and government.

 

"Islamic Terrorists in the Middle East isn't evidence that there is a problem in Islam, just that Terrorism sprung up in a few areas"" is, again, like you're arguing this same thing:  "The KKK in America isn't evidence that there is racism in America, just that the KKK sprung up in a few areas."

 

I find both statements preposterous.  Why the hell do you find one of them plausible?  (Or maybe both?  Are you at least consistent?)

[DaveW]

 

 

 

Where in the Bible belt are lynchings, throwing people off buildings, or honor killings happening?  I'd like that sourced please.

Plenty of people (mostly minorities) in the bible belt are murdered by police, with the police receiving no punishment.

There are also several innocent people who have been killed by the state (electric chair, lethal injection) that were later found to have been innocent, and once again this happens highly disproportionate  in regards to minorities. And that isn't even getting into how our justice system/prison system in general is highly racist. So while no, there aren't honor killings or lynchings going on, let's not pretend that America is some infallible giant that can do no wrong.

 

Instead of blaming bad stuff on religion etc, maybe we should actually dig a little deeper to find out why humans have loved killing other humans since the dawn of time? Of course that is a little more difficult then "hey that guy is different then me! He is the wrong one!"

[DaveW]

 

Are you not aware that in those countries they will reject it on the basis of religion?  Because they will. 

It's because they don't know any better and don't have the resources/education to think for themselves, the leaders of those countries have made damn sure of that.

Of course, we will all give a pass to the North Korean citizens who denounce America because they "Don't know any better"

[PseudoSABR]

 

 But Islamic extremists are not keeping it to themselves, they are actively spreading it and mutilating, killing, raping, and terrorizing anyone that disagrees with them.  So, yeah, call me crazy - I'm asking them to change.

I think you're being naive in assuming that the basis for such acts is religion; religion might allow for such acts or even approve of them, but the basis for those acts is sourced in some other kind of hate.   

Dropping Sharia law won't change a damn thing.  ISIS is emerging out of what had been, relatively, secular Islamic societies, run by dictators.  I don't think either Syria or Iraq adopted Sharia law.  The members of ISIS aren't reacting to their childhood training; they are reacting to their rubbled cities, the lack of an economy, etc. etc.  

 

This assumption that a religion is some a stable source of policy that could even be changed if it desired to so is ludicrous.  As twinsnorthfan pointed out there is no Islamic pope, and you think ISIS would change anything if Saudi Arabia suddenly does away with their religious police.

 

Yes, we all want more equality and freedoms in the Muslim world, but that's just a different fight than one we have with terrorists.  

 

(And while we're at it, I want the Republican Party to change, and I want Chevron and Monsanto to change...etc.)

 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Now American Racism is akin to religion?  Give me a break.  Islam doesn't have  legal structure that would fix systemic violence, like the police departments have.  

 

If all the Islam leaders (beyond ISIS or whatever) mandate terrorism stop, it would not stop.  The cause is deeper than the policies of a religion.   it's economic, cultural and political.  You just keep ignoring these elements.  You really think Israel has nothing to do with the rise of jihadism?  Or the Iraq War? Give me a break.

 

Yes, it is.  Both of them are the underlying factors that are the most difficult to pin down, but the most responsible for ongoing issues.  Islam, in many countries, DOES have a legal structure because it's entwined in the leadership.  I mean, did you seriously just suggest that Islam doesn't have a foothold in government?  ****, the police are nothing compared to the financial, legal, judicial, and governmental backing some of these groups have.

 

The other elements just add flavor, just like power, poverty, gerrymandering, and other issues influence racism.  At the end of the day - what's the core issue?  It's Islam and the oppressive, regressive platform it is propagating in many parts of the world.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

It's because they don't know any better and don't have the resources/education to think for themselves, the leaders of those countries have made damn sure of that.

 

Because of their religion!!!!  

[TheLeviathan]

 

 

Instead of blaming bad stuff on religion etc, maybe we should actually dig a little deeper to find out why humans have loved killing other humans since the dawn of time? Of course that is a little more difficult then "hey that guy is different then me! He is the wrong one!"

 

Well, largely for survival.  But then religion (all of the big three) pretty much made an industry out of it.

[DaveW]

Here is an interesting note in re: to Sharia law:

 

Many Muslim feminists argue that current interpretations of sharia that persist in oppressing women have no basis in Islam and are man-made misinterpretations of the sacred texts.

 

I argue that Muslim family laws are the products of sociocultural assumptions and juristic reasoning about the nature of relations between men and women. In other words, they are ‘man-made’ juristic constructs, shaped by the social, cultural and political conditions within which Islam’s sacred texts are understood and turned into law." -  Mir Hosseini, Ziba, Towards Gender Equality: Muslim Family Laws and the Sha'riah.

 

 

[DaveW]

 

 

Well, largely for survival.

No, just no.

Nearly every war in the history of man had nothing to do with survival (at least on the offensive side of things) and had to do with power, land, money, or women.

[Mike Sixel]

Just as most of the issues I have with other religions seem like power plays by men......or certain classes/races of men.....it isn't the religion itself, generally, but how some use it to maintain power.

[TheLeviathan]

Taking us down the "Well what does it really say" in a holy text is usually the first step towards admitting you got nothing.

 

There will never be a one true correct interpretation.  What matters is the practice of the religion.  And throughout the middle east the practice is the oppression of pretty much everyone but men.  And only the men in power that decide the current correct interpretation for their group.

 

How can any liberal not read that paragraph and think "oh...yeah...that thing we outwardly reject about white, land owning eurocentric males" and not change their tune?

[twinsnorth49]

 

I'm asking them to change.  I have no problem correcting someone else's broken moral system.  That said, if they want to slink into a hole, not bother anyone, and keep their hate to themselves?  Sure, I'll leave them alone.  

 

But Islamic extremists are not keeping it to themselves, they are actively spreading it and mutilating, killing, raping, and terrorizing anyone that disagrees with them.  So, yeah, call me crazy - I'm asking them to change.

 

And, again Mike, if the answers were easy this wouldn't be a problem.  I want Muslims to drop Sharia Law and those oppressive beliefs in favor of more moderate ones.  (You know, that many Muslims practice!  It can be done....)  I'm not going to run away from the right solution because it's hard.

Sorry Levi, you have the wrong interpretation of Shariah law. Muslims can't just "drop it",  Shariah is Islamic Law, it governs everything a Muslim does, in every aspect of their life. You can't separate Shariah from Islam, it doesn't work that way, Islam is a way of life and Shariah guides it, you can fragment it and hope to understand it.

 

What you're suggesting is basically what extremists do, they separate and focus on aspects of Islam individually and in isolation for their purposes. It's not an interpretation, it's a bastardisation.  The principles of it stem from the Wahhabi movement of the 17th century, which is not spiritual in it's principles.

 

Islam is holistic, it has to be taken in it's whole, or not at all. The basis of it is spirituality and mercy.

[TheLeviathan]

 

No, just no.

Nearly every war in the history of man had nothing to do with survival (at least on the offensive side of things) and had to do with power, land, money, or women.

 

You didn't ask about war.  You asked about killing from the dawn of man.   So, yes.  I answered your question, you just decided to change it mid-stream.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Sorry Levi, you have the wrong interpretation of Shariah law. Muslims can't just "drop it",  Shariah is Islamic Law, it governs everything a Muslim does, in every aspect of their life. You can't separate Shariah from Islam, it doesn't work that way, Islam is a way of life and Shariah guides it, you can fragment it and hope to understand it.

 

What you're suggesting is basically what extremists do, they separate and focus on aspects of Islam individually and in isolation for their purposes. It's not an interpretation, it's a bastardisation.  The principles of it stem from the Wahhabi movement of the 17th century, which is not spiritual in it's principles.

 

Islam is holistic, it has to be taken in it's whole, or not at all. The basis of it is spirituality and mercy.

 

That's fine, perhaps I phrased it poorly, but there are clearly ways to drop some of the practices and the rigidity of enforcement.  It's done all over the Western world by Muslims.  Whatever term you want to use to explain that, I'll agree with.  Or it's time to reform the law itself.  

 

As I said - change the practice, call it whatever you want.