Dozens killed by truck in France

[ashbury]

Please continue the discussion of this breaking news event here rather than in other threads.

[Bark's Lounge]

Geez, the **** doesn't stop. If the Earth is a grenade, it certainly feels like the pin has been pulled out of it.

[TheLeviathan]

French President seemed to make clear this was another act of Islamic terror.  Unsurprisingly, sadly.

[Bark's Lounge]

I just assumed as much when the news broke. As the western world goes, France has taken the brunt of this crap. That's is not saying that I dismiss what has been happening in Iraq, Syria, Turkey, etc., etc... it is all tragic.

 

As an American, it does not take me away from our problems here at home, it is really bad, but defeating Islamist Extremism has to be at the top of the list of priorities.

 

If this ideology can even be defeated, it is going to take many, many years and we need to get a start on it ASAP. I hope our Muslim Brothers and Sisters can take the lead in the fight against this ideology. This is the only path to defeating this disgusting menace.

 

I have a hard time imagining that this kind of act of terror will not happen here again. And it won't be like 9/11, it will not be targeting a national landmark, it will be targeting a place we all are too familiar with in our everyday life.

 

The battle against the Islamist narrative needs to begin and all of us peace loving, rational, and secular citizens of the world need to be on board and proactive.

[Badsmerf]

These people are cowards. It takes no bravery and no honor to kill innocent, unarmed people. Its maddening.

 

The only way this goddess away is through drastic modernization in the entire middle East. The longer the dramatic poverty, barbaric punishments, undervaluation of women, and state supported religious persecution.... the longer terrorism will exist in the region. Also, Islamists need to step up and stop expecting the West to fix their problem. We (major western counties) can only weaken and suppress radicals, not eliminate them.

 

I'm so tired of this problem. It almost feels like the crusades are going to play out again. Half our country would practically support dropping a nuclear weapon on them already, and that crowd is increasing.

[Mike Sixel]

Listening to NPR......he was likely radicalized in prison. France has a large population of minorities from Africa (not the Middle East) that are, shall we say, marginalized in society. he had been in jail, and likely was radicalized there. As we know, that's a huge issue in recruitment.

 

I don't know how you prevent this kind of attack, frankly. We can't outlaw cars.

[DaveW]

 

 Also, Islamists need to step up and stop expecting the West to fix their problem. We (major western counties) can only weaken and suppress radicals, not eliminate them.

 

Well to be fair, the USA and our pointless Iraq war is a HUGE reason why ISIS was formed and came into power, at the same time letting the Saudi's support terrorists with immunity.

That's what happens when you completely destabilize an entire region.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well to be fair, the USA and our pointless Iraq war is a HUGE reason why ISIS was formed and came into power, at the same time letting the Saudi's support terrorists with immunity.

That's what happens when you completely destabilize an entire region.

 

The underlying issues were always there, they were just contained by another force of brutality.  ISIS was born out of Iraq, but the real problem was not.

 

I wonder what it will take for the left in the west to accept that?  In Orlando it was our gun laws and homophobia.  In San Bernadino it was our gun laws.  We ignore 3 honor killings a day just in Pakistan.  But we have no problem when we see the West Baptists Church of saying: "Look at those hateful Christians"

 

You can't blame gun laws today.  What's it going to take to accept the real source of all this hate and violence?  Once we do then we can start really working to bring Islam into the modern world, but like I said....I wonder what the excuse will be today.  More French lives lost and we want to stick our head in the sand because our ideological tribe just can't accept the real source of the problem.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't think anyone denies that there is a SEGMENT of Muslims that are bad/evil. I think the "left's" issue is that the huge, vast, majority of Muslims are good people, and we don't want our VP candidates suggesting we interview every single one of them, and deport most of them......as Gingrich just did. We don't want fear mongering about our friends and neighbors. We want the first amendment to have as much weight as the 2nd amendment....

 

Many of us warned about cozying up to the Saudis, that's hardly something only Obama has done....

 

What would you suggest is the answer? Because killing them all isn't.....

[DaveW]

 

I don't think anyone denies that there is a SEGMENT of Muslims that are bad/evil. I think the "left's" issue is that the huge, vast, majority of Muslims are good people, and we don't want our VP candidates suggesting we interview every single one of them, and deport most of them......as Gingrich just did. We don't want fear mongering about our friends and neighbors. We want the first amendment to have as much weight as the 2nd amendment....

 

Many of us warned about cozying up to the Saudis, that's hardly something only Obama has done....

 

What would you suggest is the answer? Because killing them all isn't.....

Yup, it's an extremely small % that support terror, and an even much smaller percentage that actually are involved in terrorism.

 

Something along the lines of 0.1% and 0.0001% of all Muslims respectively IMO. Blaming it on Islam as a whole is ridiculous, yes, there are some countries with Islamic "heads" that do terrible, terrible things to their citizens, however there are plenty of countries that are "Christian" that do terrible terrible things to their citizens (some African countries come immediately to mind). The reality is that in the third world, people are often treated extremely poorly by their "leaders" whether they be a Christian Nation, Islamic nation or other.

 

ISIS in all reality has very little to do with Islam, and mostly to do with power and hate. They just use a couple things in Islam (heaven,Jihad) etc to convince the poor/vunerable/desperate/angry to join their movements.

 

Basically blaming Islam for ISIS is like blaming Christianity for the KKK and Nazi movement.

 

[TheLeviathan]

You should both look at the Pew polls, the argument that this behavior is a tiny fraction is a false narrative. There are a majority that support regressive, barbaric policy.

 

So, no, I reject those arguments completely.

[TheLeviathan]

Oh, and solution? Eliminate ISIS and heavily support reformers and condemn the nations that supress them in every way we can.

[Mike Sixel]

Like this?

 

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

 

"Muslims around the world strongly reject violence in the name of Islam. Asked specifically about suicide bombing, clear majorities in most countries say such acts are rarely or never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies."

[Mike Sixel]

 

Oh, and solution? Eliminate ISIS and heavily support reformers and condemn the nations that supress them in every way we can.

 

how do you eliminate ISIS?

 

What do you mean by "support"?

[TheLeviathan]

Like this?

 

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

 

"Muslims around the world strongly reject violence in the name of Islam. Asked specifically about suicide bombing, clear majorities in most countries say such acts are rarely or never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies."

Yup, right polls. Let me retort with a question..

 

When everyone agrees police shouldn't murder black men, do you take that as enough when those same people support or deny the role of underlying racism and poverty? Or worse, support the perpetuation of those problems?

 

Because widespread support of religious fundamentalism is the same kind of problem.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Yup, right polls. Let me retort with a question..

When everyone agrees police shouldn't murder black men, do you take that as enough when those same people support or deny the role of underlying racism and poverty? Or worse, support the perpetuation of those problems?

Because widespread support of religious fundamentalism is the same kind of problem.

 

That is a fine question....and if I could eliminate religious fanaticism, and create a rational world, I would. But, this is not a SF novel (Lathe of Heaven), but reality. Fanaticism has existed since man learned to communicate, alas. I don't see much end to it.

 

Educating the masses of the world, many of whom can't even read.....that's going to take generations. In the mean time, what can/should be done? Certainly not questioning every Muslim in the US, and giving them some kind of religious test to stay here......

[TheLeviathan]

Is there no in between mike? I can throw suggestions out layer when I have more time, but there is a large gulf between Trump and American liberalism where we can find solutions.

 

But it irritates me to no end the hypocrisy of not being able to see how oppressive religious fundamentalism is akin to racism. I could care less about empty rejections of terrorism when the root cause is passionately supported or roundly allowed.

[Mike Sixel]

is anyone arguing that religious fundamentalism isn't bad? Are liberals saying "we don't care that women have no rights in fundamentalist nations". I don't recall seeing that......

[PseudoSABR]

The fact that many, many Muslims believe some really antiquated and oppressive things does not explain the recent phenomenon of radicalized Islam attacking Western societies.    Sure, the oppressive dogma allows such hate and fanaticism to take root, but no more than Christianity allowed for the KKK to shroud itself in faux-religion.  

 

For my part, I think Western, esp. US and Israel, policy towards the Middle East in general since WWII provides a lot more meaningful basis for the emergence of Islamic Terrorism than the Quran or Sharia law.  

 

It took modernization, democracy, and the promotion of social welfare for Christian societies to shed many of their antiquated and oppressive regimes.  I think focusing on what is wrong with Islamic belief is a mistake, rather focus on what is wrong with Muslim's people's quality of life, and I think we'll get better sense of the roots and motivations of Islamic terrorism/ISIS.

 

In general you can't kill an idea, a belief, or even a religion; but you might be able to help foster a world were people are less likely to put stock in such ideas/beliefs/religions. 

 

[Badsmerf]

But psuedo, you have to properly define the problem first. It's hard to fix when it is not outlined correctly. I'm with Levi on this topic. I've learned a lot about Islam and the prior in their society lately. The problems run deep. It's not too difficult to see why these people are doing what they are. When you have a nation of people with extreme views, graduating to radical isn't as far as some are making it out to be.

[twinsnorth49]

The exploitation of some of the more intolerant  parts of the Islamic religion to incite fanaticism is done by a few. The vast majority of Muslims no longer look to eliminate the infidels in the name of Muhammed, regardless of it's inclusion in the Quran.

 

The void of any central leadership is a major problem for the Muslim world. Although  it's a heterogeneous religion to begin with, which inherently makes it possible for extremists to promote their views, the lack of any kind of authoritative source of interpretation makes it even worse. I'd say it's pretty much approaching full crisis mode, if it's not already in it.

 

It's been almost 100 years since the elimination of the Caliphate. It desperately needs to have an authoritative and moral compass that might allow for it's more learned scholars to be less marginalised in the face of the extremists.

[Mike Sixel]

His sister in law supposedly said he never went to mosque, drank alcohol and ate port, among other things.....are we sure this is the act of a radical Muslim?

 

"The alleged killer was described as drug-taking wife beater who never went to Mosque by one of his relatives. His wife’s cousin claims he was an “unlikely jihadist” who drank and ate pork, Walid Hamou told the Mail he was “not a Muslim, he was a s***” and was a “nasty piece of work”. He said: “Bouhlel was not religious - he did not go to the mosque, he did not pray, he did not observe Ramadan. “He drank alcohol, ate pork and took drugs. This is all forbidden under Islam. “He was not a Muslim, he was a s***. “He beat his wife, my cousin, he was a nasty piece of work.”

 

Now, I have my doubts he wasn't influenced by Islam.....but it is possible he's just one sick dude who would have done some kind of violence no matter what.

[TheLeviathan]

Aren't those exactly the kind of people that a widely fanatical society will foster to violence?

[Mike Sixel]

 

Aren't those exactly the kind of people that a widely fanatical society will foster to violence?

 

Not sure what this has to do with anything.......yes? And? So what?

[Badsmerf]

That is the point. To solve the problem you have to actually solve the problem. Intolerance and archaic policy are a prime breeding ground for crazy people to kill people. Christianity was no different 1000 years ago. I hope it doesn't take that long for Islam to evolve.

 

These societies are the problem. The poverty, the hopelessness, the anger, the ignorance, the perversion of words. Drawing attention to innocent Muslims is much like saying there are peaceful racists.

[Mike Sixel]

 

That is the point. To solve the problem you have to actually solve the problem. Intolerance and archaic policy are a prime breeding ground for crazy people to kill people. Christianity was no different 1000 years ago. I hope it doesn't take that long for Islam to evolve.

These societies are the problem. The poverty, the hopelessness, the anger, the ignorance, the perversion of words. Drawing attention to innocent Muslims is much like saying there are peaceful racists.

 

So, what would you do? Invade and force them to change?

[Badsmerf]

So, what would you do? Invade and force them to change?

Invoke sanctions on countries like Saudi Arabia until they change might be a direction i could support. I don't have a cabinet of foreign policy advisors at my disposal, so my actual solutions are limited I'm afraid.

 

It's a complex problem. One that President Obama is briefed on a daily basis I'm sure. From a strategic standpoint, you don't continue doing the same ineffective actions year after year. We only hear a fraction of the effort against this threat, so it makes it difficult to truly criticize our military. But, we can criticize the press/officials when they continually mislead where the problem lies.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Invoke sanctions on countries like Saudi Arabia until they change might be a direction i could support. I don't have a cabinet of foreign policy advisors at my disposal, so my actual solutions are limited I'm afraid.

It's a complex problem. One that President Obama is briefed on a daily basis I'm sure. From a strategic standpoint, you don't continue doing the same ineffective actions year after year. We only hear a fraction of the effort against this threat, so it makes it difficult to truly criticize our military. But, we can criticize the press/officials when they continually mislead where the problem lies.

 

so you are willing to have the price of oil sky rocket, and see almost your entire party get unelected next election (no matter what party you are)? It would take a brave congress and President to do that, in this political climate. I see little evidence of that happening. Also, they would then spin that that it is the US's fault they have no money/food/clothing, because of the sanctions, furthering their recruiting efforts, I'd guess.

 

It is complex, and will take a ton of time. Maybe more time than the human species has, if someone does something really stupid.

[PseudoSABR]

 

But psuedo, you have to properly define the problem first. It's hard to fix when it is not outlined correctly. I'm with Levi on this topic. I've learned a lot about Islam and the prior in their society lately. The problems run deep. It's not too difficult to see why these people are doing what they are. When you have a nation of people with extreme views, graduating to radical isn't as far as some are making it out to be.

Well, that's my issue, I don't think we are outlining it correctly.  Again, I think the reality of terrorism emerging from Islamic culture has less to do with Islamic culture itself than it has to do with Western imperialism of the middle east.   Islam may provide the basis for organizing and mechanizing hate and violence, but the current violence is not perpetuated on the basis of infidel, or cultural supremacy, its a direct reaction to Western meddling, wars, and occupation over nearly a century.   

 

For my part, suggesting that Islam should go fix itself, or that we somehow should fix or change Islam is a total nonstarter of a solution; I'd rather address what our culture has done to create the current violent climate. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

So, what would you do? Invade and force them to change?

 

Well, perhaps we should start by all agreeing that everytime someone says "It's only a tiny fraction of Islamists!" - we agree that person is in denial.

 

Again, I'll make it analogous to America so those of you arguing this can see the total hypocrisy of your position:

 

The KKK or the West Baptist church is only a tiny fraction of America bent on killing gays or blacks.  We shouldn't judge all of America by that and therefore shouldn't look for anything else beyond these whackos to explain what's happening.

 

You agree with that?  No?  Yeah, me either.  You know why?  (And I hope you agree) Well, even though not all Americans should be judged by that, I still have to look deeper than the extremists to find the real problem.  In America that's a long history of racism that has spurred the existence of these groups and policies that have long carried over the effects of racism, allowing them to continue to survive.  

 

So just as some schmuck saying "I disagree with the KKK, but it's false that racism still exists" is not someone who I take seriously on this issue, nor do I take any of you seriously that think 1% of Islam is all at issue here.

 

Hell, you don't even agree with your own reasoning.  You're just selectively applying it and you don't see it.