Article: Twins Designate Oswaldo Arcia

[Platoon]

 

 

And for the record, I was fine with the Twins gambling 24 mil on Park figuring out MLB pitching, which he may yet do, but only if the Twins were willing to regard him as a failed experiment and sunk cost when the time came

That is an extremely logical, well thought out caveat.

Unfortunately Terry missed that day in economics. When he hands out money he is going to get his money's worth. Nolasco has had I don't know 50 starts. Pelfrey. Hughes. Plouffe. And so forth.

Terry has a different definition of "gets your money's worth" than I do!

 

Yeah I'm not happy... 
 
The rest of this season should be about finding out what you have for 2017 and each player should get an equal shot at showing their future worth especially when you don't have those pesky little pressures of making the playoffs. 
 
I'm not happy...  because I've watched nearly every game and I know that Arcia didn't play well but I also know that he wasn't beaten out by someone who played better.

. Some make fun of the use of the term Twins Way! But it's not just a slogan. Maybe it should be change to Twins Personna? Because there are players who do not fit their profile, and regardless of stats or production, they are not going to be here. In the same token, those who do are pretty well set for a long, if not productive MLB career.

[Craig Arko]

Twins Zeitgeist.

[jokin]

 

At no point in time as a major  league ball player did Cruz have a K% approaching 30%,   If you are trying to make a case try to compare similar players at similar points in their career. Arcia is not even remotely similar to Cruz because he will never hit with a 30-40% K rate.  Again, this has nothing to do with the front office and everything to do with a player. It is really disingenuous to make it about the front office when I did not bring up the front office.

 

As noted, Cruz's K% was 25% in his first two+ years- better than Arcia, to be sure- but Arcia at 31% - and four years younger on the comp, isn't really that far away from Cruz's 25% for you to draw some definitive distinction. If we were to project their career timeline, just knowing what we know of their first two years in the league, Arcia shows superior power potential, a better BB rate, but more likely to whiff, as any typical power hitter would be expected to perofrm.

 

You seem to be going out of your way to ignore the significantly greater results of Arcia relative to Cruz in this exercise I illustrated... not sure why... ?  except, judging previous posting history, up to and including your most recent posts in this thread... it's all on the players... that is, all on them- once the Twins FO decides to part ways...

[The Wise One]

 

As noted, Cruz's K% was 25% in his first two+ years- better than Arcia, to be sure- but Arcia at 31% - and four years younger on the comp, isn't really that far away from Cruz's 25% for you to draw some definitive distinction. If we were to project their career timeline, just knowing what we know of their first two years in the league, Arcia shows superior power potential, a better BB rate, but more likely to whiff, as any typical power hitter would be expected to perofrm.

 

You seem to be going out of your way to ignore the significantly greater results of Arcia relative to Cruz in this exercise I illustrated... not sure why... ?  except, judging previous posting history, up to and including your most recent posts in this thread... it's all on the players... that is, all on them- once the Twins FO decides to part ways...

The number keeps increasing. Arcia is 4 years younger. So what. Are the Twins supposed to keep him on the roster for 4 years until he grows up and then decide what to do with him.  Arcia is a year older than Trout. He is far behind Trout in terms of hitting ability. Joey Votto by age 25 was receiving MVP votes. How many more comps based in fantasyland should I make to show you there is absurdity in comparing Arcia to Cruz . Find someone who strikes out as much as Arcia does  and walks as little as opposed to a batter that strikes out nowhere near as much and drew a lot more walks.  Find someone who was in the major leagues at the same age.  Compare similar. Maybe somebody like Mike Hessman

 

Edited June 18, 2016 by The Wise One

[diehardtwinsfan]

If there's a lesson to be learned here, putting someone on the 40 man before they are ready for the show is a good one.  Arcia was an early add (and let's face it, we all wanted to see him), but he wasn't ready. He burned up all his options which is the big reason why he's DFAd now.  Not really defending the DFA, but I do think there's a lesson here about rushing prospects.

[Otto von Ballpark]

If Twins starters could get past the 5th inning, the team would not need 8 relievers. The reason that Arcia was lost is because the Twins could not afford to reduce their pitching staff. It all comes down to the starting rotation.......

They have zero long relievers. They could get by with 7 relievers including a long man just as well as 8 one inning guys.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I've had a bit more time to digest this today.  I'm still pretty upset about the Arcia DFA.  It was the wrong decision.  I don't know if he'll be the next Ortiz, or if he'll be the next Nelson Cruz, Joe Benson, or Chris Parmalee, but in general, there's something to be said about not giving up on young kids, especially ones that show the ability to be much better than their much older peers or those who have shown they can hold their own for an extended time at a young age.  Arcia may have had issues with his attitude.  He may have been more interested in the pay check then honing his craft.  He may have just been immature.  I don't know. I still don't like it. 

 

Bottom line, a team like the Twins has to give those guys a chance to grow up and improve.  Not everyone matures at the same rate, and at 25, there's plenty of immaturity to go around.  I suspect most of us at TD, if we were honest would admit that we had (or have) some maturity issues at that age. 

 

My bigger problem is that lack of a plan thing that a few people have mentioned.  I'm really not sure what they are trying to accomplish in the FO right now.  This team is bad, one of the two worst in the league and it's not really close.  We do have a lot of talent in the high minors, and while I wouldn't be putting all of them in MLB at the moment, I certainly wouldn't be giving away ones that might be useful pieces.  I get that Arcia would have likely gotten the squeeze at some point, but we don't know if Kepler or Buxton will develop, and like it or not, Arcia has more success in the majors than either of them at this point.  I don't mind keeping Grossman around, as he might be that diamond in the rough (even if the odds are low), and I don't even mind Santana.  But Maestro?  How it is that Arcia didn't get consistent PT over the last month with all the injuries is mind boggling.  Heck, Park has been struggling, and spending time in AAA might do him good, even though he does look like he could be an impact major leaguer.  There were ways to solve this problem that didn't involve getting rid of potentially good pieces. 

 

Simply put, right now this team needs to be removing anyone that isn't long term piece who is in the way of someone that could be.  I don't have a problem with guys like Maestro when guys like Buxton aren't ready, but I do have a problem with them when you're keeping them over guys like Arcia who has nothing to prove in the minors and is out of options.  Who cares if the OF defense is bad this year?  Play Arcia in center for all I care, but play him.  I don't care if they trade the ML blocking pieces for scraps or DFA them, but the one thing we all wanted to see Arcia get this year was some consistent PT, and it is the one thing he hasn't gotten. 

 

They should be nuking non-core pieces where there's young talent that needs to play and playing for #1 overall right now, not kicking 25 year old potential power bats aside for a 5th OF that is a decent CF if Buxton likely falters again.  If Molitor cannot accept that, he should be gone.  If Ryan cannot step in and tell him as much, he should be gone.

[jorgenswest]

Winning seasons/seasons managed since 2010:

 

Molitor - 1/1

 

Gardenhire - 0/4

 

Sooooo... Nope.

Winning percentage as manager

 

Molitor - .450

 

Gardenhire - .507

 

Maybe a little

[Riverbrian]

 

What is Kepler or Grossman's ceilings?  Arcia's ceiling is pretty much 25-30HR and the inability to play defense. Batting .200 with that many HR and no ability  defense when playing defense will net you very little value for a full season of war. Gattis played 11 games in lf last year, hit almost 30 hr and almost hit .250 for a sum total of 0 WAR.  Arcia was beaten out by 2 players

 

I'm not a WAR guy

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I'm not a WAR guy

 

I tend to think that peace is the better solution as well.

[howieramone2]

 

I'm beginning to understand what it felt like to be a Pirates or Royals fan through the 2000s.

Brock, you're actually pretty close with the Royals. They were going to clean house in 2013, but stayed the course. Better times are just around the corner.

[ashbury]

I'm not a WAR guy

But you're a defense guy. Bad defense negates some portion of whatever offense is produced. Whether you espouse one particular formulation of the tradeoff, you surely have a mental format for doing the tradeoff, and surely Arcia's defense bothers you, doesn't it? He's way down from his ceiling on offense these past two years, but even if he comes back to that ceiling, his glove is giving back some of those runs.

[ashbury]

I hate this DFA of Arcia. Santana wasn't off the 40-man, so only a 25-man roster move was needed to add him.

 

There are 3 guys who would be easy IMO to option to Rochester, leaving room for Arcia for the time being: Buxton, Kepler, Park. I would pick Park. But the argument given against sending ANY of them down is that they won't learn to hit major league pitching at AAA.

 

In that case, why didn't that argument get applied to Arcia the last two years, while he did still have options?

 

A puzzling double standard. (And I hesitate to open another tangent, but we're working toward a similar scenario with Polanco in 2017.)

 

Adding Park this past off-season was a good move - increasing the talent pool always has to be good. The problem is not making a corresponding move. TR stated that he was in talent acquisition mode, and wasn't looking to move any of the players he already had. Unless that was purely a negotiating tactic to keep the value of a trade chip like Plouffe high (didn't work!), the glut of corner/DH types stood out a mile at the time, and never was addressed.

 

And now one of those corner/DH types is about to be lost for pennies on the dollar (if we're lucky, otherwise for zero), and it doesn't seem like it had to happen.

 

I don't claim trading Plouffe was going to be easy, or return full value. But TR apparently was afraid of getting only 85 cents on the dollar by trading someone like him, and held on too long.

 

These things all tie together.

[howieramone2]

 

They should have DFA'd him in spring training considering last years performance. He would have likely gone unclaimed and gotten the reps some feel he still needs while in the minors.  Instead, they chose to keep him around and now the cats out of the bag. Every team in the league will be posturing to acquire the services of this guy who can't play defense and put up a .214 batting average against mostly favorable side pitching.

 

I'm glad they cut bait on him. The timing is just strange though. They kept him and then never gave him the reps. Very hard to understand this team.

 

For the record, I do not think he will be in the league for long if claimed. He just is not very good.

Bingo!

[stringer bell]

Next up...watch the Twins put Pat Dean on waivers and add Tommy Milone....because Arcia's spot isn't up yet. We will see if the demand for Pat Dean is also high...high enough that he needed to be protected this past fall (who did we lose to the Rule 5 again?).

There really should be two 40-man spots available. Arcia's will come open and also Mastroianni, as soon as he is healthy enough. With Buxton and Santana being what they are, they really don't need Mastro.

[spinowner]

I've been one to give TR the benefit of the doubt. The Twins had better-than-average success from 2001-2007 considering the budget constraints he worked with and I think the organization as a whole was in much better shape at the end of last season than it was 4 years previously when he was rehired. I took that and his generally positive press as evidence that he was good at his job. Even through the major league team's struggles this season I was willing to accept the notion that it was at least in part just a patch of unforeseeable misfortune.

However, IMHO this transaction is the last facet of an indefensible blunder. Arcia has 30-HR talent. Obviously there are shortcomings elsewhere in his skill set but you don't just give up on such a player as young as he is as quickly as they did. It's beyond me to understand how the team did not have him in the lineup every day starting at about May 10. Knowing he was out of options and experiencing a season in which playing to win had become far less important than evaluating and developing prospects meant that it was in the best interest of the team and of the player to give him an extended look.

This whole fiasco has flipped me to the point of view that TR should be replaced as soon as ownership can identify a satisfactory replacement.

[Riverbrian]

 

But you're a defense guy. Bad defense negates some portion of whatever offense is produced. Whether you espouse one particular formulation of the tradeoff, you surely have a mental format for doing the tradeoff, and surely Arcia's defense bothers you, doesn't it? He's way down from his ceiling on offense these past two years, but even if he comes back to that ceiling, his glove is giving back some of those runs.

 

Yeah I am and I get the concept... I just don't trust the methodology at this point. I hope to trust it later when it is stabilized somehow. The sample size swings are too much for any hat hanging. 

 

I'm a big defense guy and I look at it pretty simple. Did you take away or give an extra out. The answer to that is the difference between hanging a zero and leaving a crooked number and ball games can be won or lost right there. 

 

Arcia... He certainly wasn't a take away an out guy (maybe his arm on occasion). But then again... The Current Twins don't have a lot of take away an out types of guys after Buxton. 

[ashbury]

Arcia... He certainly wasn't a take away an out guy (maybe his arm on occasion).

Everyone's pretty much agreed on that. But that's only a neutral statement.

 

Don't you want to take the additional step of saying he is a "give them an out" (or a base) guy on defense?

[Mr. Brooks]

I can't help but notice that many of the same posters who are always preaching patience are the same ones saying that this is the right move.

 

Maybe I'm just cynical but I can't help thinking they just defend the front office as a default.

[CampQ]

What is the timeline for the waiver wire? When will we learn whether he's cleaimed?

[Riverbrian]

 

I've been one to give TR the benefit of the doubt. The Twins had better-than-average success from 2001-2007 considering the budget constraints he worked with and I think the organization as a whole was in much better shape at the end of last season than it was 4 years previously when he was rehired. I took that and his generally positive press as evidence that he was good at his job. Even through the major league team's struggles this season I was willing to accept the notion that it was at least in part just a patch of unforeseeable misfortune.

However, IMHO this transaction is the last facet of an indefensible blunder. Arcia has 30-HR talent. Obviously there are shortcomings elsewhere in his skill set but you don't just give up on such a player as young as he is as quickly as they did. It's beyond me to understand how the team did not have him in the lineup every day starting at about May 10. Knowing he was out of options and experiencing a season in which playing to win had become far less important than evaluating and developing prospects meant that it was in the best interest of the team and of the player to give him an extended look.

This whole fiasco has flipped me to the point of view that TR should be replaced as soon as ownership can identify a satisfactory replacement.

 

I'm with you

 

I've waited patiently over the years and told myself and others. Let the Man do his Job. 

 

I Can't do that anymore the mistakes are just too large and plentiful. 

 

You expressed my thoughts perfectly. Everyone knew he was out of options. Instead of giving him one last chance to show something with a ball club that has nothing to lose.

 

They decided to take away that one last chance.  

 

 

 

[Vanimal46]

What is the timeline for the waiver wire? When will we learn whether he's cleaimed?

10 days I believe. So June 26th.

[Riverbrian]

 

Everyone's pretty much agreed on that. But that's only a neutral statement.

 

Don't you want to take the additional step of saying he is a "give them an out" (or a base) guy on defense?

 

Considering that OF play is filled to the brim with routine plays. 

 

I'd answer that question with No. 

 

Arcia has probably missed about 3 balls this year on plays that would be made the majority of time.

 

That isn't good but you can absorb that as long as you don't have another guy like that. 

 

We got one who is even worse in Sano. 

[ashbury]

We got one who is even worse in Sano. 

I'll go along with the other points, but an assemblage of poor defensive OF is no (ahem) defense of Arcia.

[Riverbrian]

 

I'll go along with the other points, but an assemblage of poor defensive OF is no (ahem) defense of Arcia.

 

I have no defense of Arcia defense. I hope you didn't think I was actually trying. 

 

[Kwak]

Releasing Arcia is simply one step to "the Rebuild". Removing major league players that aren't in the future but are potentially blocking the advancement of those that might have a future is a necessary step--and one that has been advocated many time even by some of those complaining about this necessary move.

[Mike Sixel]

Molitor said he gave Arcia a chance? Wow.

[spinowner]

 

 replacing the manager with someone younger and more experienced at developing young Talent, maybe someone who is presently coaching in the minor leagues. I wonder who that could be ....

There's a guy who matches that description who I think would probably be happy to accept the title of interim manager for the remainder of 2016.

[tobi0040]

Releasing Arcia is simply one step to "the Rebuild". Removing major league players that aren't in the future but are potentially blocking the advancement of those that might have a future is a necessary step--and one that has been advocated many time even by some of those complaining about this necessary move.

I think many think they need to move guys who aren't the future, but believe Arcia never really got the chance. If you back out his first two years I am not sure he had a fair crack. At a very minimum there were others with less upside and less replaceable than him. The whole Santana up and Arcia DFA is hard to swallow

 

I am not sure if Arcia is or is not part of the future. The guy has some potential. His numbers at 22 and 23 show me he has a talented base to work off of. My gut says his bat was good enough to platoon in RF or DH and that is where he will land and have a decent career. He is not a good defender, but his bat given regular at bats against righties probably would have been enough to add value.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think many think they need to move guys who aren't the future, but believe Arcia never really got the chance. If you back out his first two years I am not sure he had a fair crack. At a very minimum there were others with less upside and less replaceable than him. The whole Santana up and Arcia DFA is hard to swallow

I am not sure if Arcia is or is not part of the future. The guy has some potential. His numbers at 22 and 23 show me he has a talented base to work off of. My gut says his bat was good enough to platoon in RF or DH and that is where he will land and have a decent career. He is not a good defender, but his bat given regular at bats against righties probably would have been enough to add value.

Yes, all of this. It's one thing if the team is contending and Arcia doesn't fit. It's another thing if players with more upside force Arcia to the waiver wire.

 

But this team... This season... It's like they're throwing darts blindfolded. Never before have I seen a season where a full 50% (or more) of the moves leave me scratching my head, unsure what the thinking was behind the decision. Even when I don't agree with a move, at least I can see the rationale behind it most of the time.

 

But this season...