Royals Yordano Ventura

[Dman]

 

  On 6/8/2016 at 11:32 PM, gunnarthor said:

That's silly.  Every single sport - frankly, every workplace - has unwritten rules about proper behavior.  I suspect you say stuff on the internet that you wouldn't dare say to a co-worker because the setting is different.  You know which people in your office you can cuss around without concern and which co-workers would consider it harassment.  Every workplace. 

 

Why do we expect pro players to be calmer?  Some idiot on the internet insults you and, even after letting it stew for 10 minutes, you post something in return knowing full well that if you said it to his face, he'd deck you.  And vice versa.  Expecting professional athletes, who are way more competitive than us to not respond to someone disrespecting them is naive.  That's why there are rules, unwritten as they are, on how to respond.  As Maddon said, you can go to first or go to the mound.  You don't get to bring your bat.  It makes sense, in its own way.  And every sport deals with it in its own way. 

 

 

  On 6/8/2016 at 11:40 PM, gunnarthor said:

Every sport allows "extra" things - not just hockey and baseball.  In football, its on every play - its so common we don't even notice it anymore.  Captain Motterlyn (I absolutely misspelled that) suplexs Drew Brees into the ground and gets an unnecessary roughing penalty and we all complain about the call.  Saints players openly intend to knock the QB out the game and we all go, sure.  In basketball, players hit each other with "accidental" elbows to send messages.  Even in horse racing, jockeys hit each other with their whips.

 

Your complaint that you can do violence in sports but not a bar is silly.  You can't tackle a guy in a bar.  You can't spike the whiskey bottle in a bar.  You can't swear or cuss out someone else in a bar.  You can't swing a bat in a bar.  You keep comparing the social norms of one setting (sports) and complain that they don't work in another setting (work place or a bar).  You can't compare them. They are too different.  There's crap I can't do in America that I could do in Europe - it's useless to make those kind of comparisons. 

I don't think the context you are comparing is the same.  In Basketball yes elbows get thrown around a bit in blocking guys out for rebounds and protecting the ball but really that is part of the game.  If players purposely kick or elbow players especially in the face they face a fine and suspensions and the potential to be kicked out of the game.  If a player repeatedly does that I think they can be booted out of the league as well.  Flopping in basketball can get you suspended and technical fouls can get you kicked out of a game and fined.

 

Football is pretty violent so stopping everything is very difficult but bounty gate got some players banned and the coach a 1 year suspension.  That is a tougher penalty than baseball has for throwing at guys. Hockey has a ways to go but they are suspending more and more players all the time.  

 

I think your unwritten rules in all sports are going to go away before too long.  Replaced by actual rules that better protect the players who play the game.  

[tobi0040]

  On 6/8/2016 at 11:25 PM, Dman said:

But where does the policing end. Does Manny get to bring his baseball bat out and repeatedly pummel the pitcher with it? After all he is only protecting himself. Self policing just brings on escalation. How about just creating a policy where if the league feels a pitcher is throwing at guys they say sorry you are out of the league. Problem solved. There is no reason for self policing it is a bad idea and all sports are trying to root it out with suspensions and better rules for player safety.

 

If self policing is such a grand idea then get rid of the umpires and let the players decide whats a ball or strike or who is safe or out? It's not a good idea that s why you have impartial judges and now instant replay to decide things. When players decide things it ends up in a fight so get rid of the players that cause it and it will go away. No need for self policing then.

 

If you follow the rules of the game you don't need any self policing. Self policing is a lie to enable players to get away with physically hurting their opponents for hurting their feelings. If players do this they should be suspended and ultimately booted from the game. Then it will magically stop and the game will be better for it.

I hear the unions are looking into "stand your ground" and "conceal and carry" for the hitters.

[tobi0040]

  On 6/9/2016 at 12:13 AM, Dman said:

I think your unwritten rules in all sports are going to go away before too long. Replaced by actual rules that better protect the players who play the game.

I completely agree. Recent examples would be smoking the catcher at home and the take out slide at 2B.

 

In football, being able to drill the QB after he throws. Hitting him in the knees, or hits to the head of any player have gone away.

 

Throwing at hitters and hockey fights are probably next. Although the catalyst is usually not player safety but rather owners paying players that are hurt. So hockey is probably the last shoe to drop, given that the only players that fight are doing the one thing they were signed to do

[jimmer]

  On 6/9/2016 at 12:13 AM, Dman said:

I don't think the context you are comparing is the same. In Basketball yes elbows get thrown around a bit in blocking guys out for rebounds and protecting the ball but really that is part of the game. If players purposely kick or elbow players especially in the face they face a fine and suspensions and the potential to be kicked out of the game. If a player repeatedly does that I think they can be booted out of the league as well. Flopping in basketball can get you suspended and technical fouls can get you kicked out of a game and fined.

 

Football is pretty violent so stopping everything is very difficult but bounty gate got some players banned and the coach a 1 year suspension. That is a tougher penalty than baseball has for throwing at guys. Hockey has a ways to go but they are suspending more and more players all the time.

 

I think your unwritten rules in all sports are going to go away before too long. Replaced by actual rules that better protect the players who play the game.

people keep pointing to sports that have contact as part of the game. Baseball isn't supposed to be a contact sport. Next people will compare football to tennis and golf

[tobi0040]

  On 6/9/2016 at 1:13 AM, jimmer said:

people keep pointing to sports that have contact as part of the game. Baseball isn't supposed to be a contact sport. Next people will compare football to tennis and golf

Certainly less contact. But baseball has had unwritten rules that allow throwing at guys and takeout slides for decades (at least, I am no baseball historian).

[jimmer]

 

  On 6/9/2016 at 1:38 AM, tobi0040 said:

Certainly less contact. But baseball has had unwritten rules that allow throwing at guys and takeout slides for decades (at least, I am no baseball historian).

yeah, it's funny, cause nowhere in the rules does it say contact is allowed.  Even when they talked about changing the rules about slamming into the catcher, the rules never said you could.  Once tagged out, a runner is out.  Period.  Not tagged out and having to sustain a vicious blow by a guy running full speed while you stand still.

[tobi0040]

  On 6/9/2016 at 1:51 AM, jimmer said:

yeah, it's funny, cause nowhere in the rules does it say contact is allowed. Even when they talked about changing the rules about slamming into the catcher, the rules never said you could. Once tagged out, a runner is out. Period. Not tagged out and having to sustain a vicious blow by a guy running full speed while you stand still.

Yeah. I think a type of play developed and nobody complained. And it is a form of entertainment.

 

But escalating salaries changed it. Guys like Jerry Jones didn't like Troy Aikman getting concussions and the Giants owner didn't appreciate Buster Posey's senseless season ending injury.

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 6/9/2016 at 1:08 AM, tobi0040 said:

Throwing at hitters and hockey fights are probably next. Although the catalyst is usually not player safety but rather owners paying players that are hurt. So hockey is probably the last shoe to drop, given that the only players that fight are doing the one thing they were signed to do

 

It's already happening in hockey.  There are articles every year about the demise of the "hockey goon".  Since those two on-ice assaults (Bertuzzi and McSorely) the NHL sort of had to confront the self-policing mentality.  It's pretty clear the league doesn't buy any of those arguments and they're striving to end that mentality.

 

Change from this can come from a lot of different motivations.  You're right that money may be part of it.  I like to think that players just want to play and be healthy too.  I can't imagine guys like Posey or Kang enjoy losing their season because some guy wanted to try the minuscule odds of breaking up the DP.  It's just not worth the cost.

 

And the thing is, if you REALLY hate that guys watch home runs or flip bats - then punish them too.  Do whatever, just stop thinking self-policing is going to take it away.  We've been playing the game a century and guys are still flipping bats and throwing at each other all the time.  The NFL passed some tackling penalties and hockey some hitting penalties and in less than 5 years both games changed dramatically.  That is where real change will come from, not self-policing.  (Look at the start of this thread, it's clowns like this that are in charge of the policing)

[tobi0040]

  On 6/9/2016 at 3:27 AM, TheLeviathan said:

It's already happening in hockey. There are articles every year about the demise of the "hockey goon". Since those two on-ice assaults (Bertuzzi and McSorely) the NHL sort of had to confront the self-policing mentality. It's pretty clear the league doesn't buy any of those arguments and they're striving to end that mentality.

 

Change from this can come from a lot of different motivations. You're right that money may be part of it. I like to think that players just want to play and be healthy too. I can't imagine guys like Posey or Kang enjoy losing their season because some guy wanted to try the minuscule odds of breaking up the DP. It's just not worth the cost.

 

And the thing is, if you REALLY hate that guys watch home runs or flip bats - then punish them too. Do whatever, just stop thinking self-policing is going to take it away. We've been playing the game a century and guys are still flipping bats and throwing at each other all the time. The NFL passed some tackling penalties and hockey some hitting penalties and in less than 5 years both games changed dramatically. That is where real change will come from, not self-policing. (Look at the start of this thread, it's clowns like this that are in charge of the policing)

Yeah. Most Players probably don't like it either and that has a money component to it as well.

[dgwills]

The Twins are in no position to be picky. They've already spent a lot of their payroll on bad pitchers. If the Royals would take Plouffe for Ventura you do it. Hopefully they can fix his issues. If not it doesn't cost them too much.

[Bark's Lounge]

Like everything in life, traditions change and erode into the sea or the dirt is picked up by the wind and is dispersed in a way where it can never come back together again.

 

Ventura is an idiot. I get it that a good amount of people get their rocks off on HBP's and baseball brawls. Those people probably like WWE as well, at least that is fake. Throwing an upper 90's fastball at someone is not fake. It's dangerous plain and simple. I'd like to think people don't make light of the concussion tragedy that is plaguing the NFL. Throwing pitches at batters can cause the same awfulness and repercussions.

 

Ventura should be suspended like a first time PED offender.

 

And for those who do not want to evolve with the times and accept that change is a part of our ever transforming world... go watch some re-runs of The Jerry Springer show and get your rocks off there.

 

Violence and intentionally hurting people is obsolete, narrow minded, primitive, and more importantly... Wrong.

[USAFChief]

  On 6/8/2016 at 9:34 PM, TheLeviathan said:

Are all buy-lows created equally? Personally, I prefer the "underachiever who was formally high regarded" over the "this guy is a freaking whack job/criminal".

Ventura isn't an "underachiever who was (formerly) high regarded?"

 

Heck, he's still high(ly) regarded.

[Dman]

 

  On 6/9/2016 at 12:42 PM, USAFChief said:

Ventura isn't an "underachiever who was (formerly) high regarded?"

Heck, he's still high(ly) regarded.

 

Yep so highly regarded that the team that knows him best is desperately trying to get rid of him.

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 6/9/2016 at 12:42 PM, USAFChief said:

Ventura isn't an "underachiever who was (formerly) high regarded?"

Heck, he's still high(ly) regarded.

 

He is, but he also qualifies under the second category too.  

[USAFChief]

  On 6/9/2016 at 12:59 PM, TheLeviathan said:

He is, but he also qualifies under the second category too.

 

So say you.

 

I think you overstate the case, but whatever the level, it is part of what makes him potentially available.

 

And wouldn't bother KC much if he were giving up fewer runs.

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 6/9/2016 at 1:04 PM, USAFChief said:

So say you.

I think you overstate the case, but whatever the level, it is part of what makes him potentially available.

And wouldn't bother KC much if he were giving up fewer runs.

 

So says his own team.  Clearly his own catcher.  His manager.  

 

 

So, not just me.  The people who know him best.

[tobi0040]

  On 6/9/2016 at 12:59 PM, Dman said:

Yep so highly regarded that the team that knows him best is desperately trying to get rid of him.

To be fair, we are going off a note from MLB Trade Rumors, whose record on trade chatter is not great. And we don't know their asking price if they are moving him.

[jorgenswest]

I would offer Plouffe and Gonsalves. I wonder if the Royals would prefer Nunez over Plouffe. His offensive skills are a better fit for their line up. On the other hand, the Royals have shown commitment to rostering players with plus gloves.

[HitInAPinch]

 

  On 6/9/2016 at 1:19 PM, jorgenswest said:

I would offer Plouffe and Gonsalves. I wonder if the Royals would prefer Nunez over Plouffe. His offensive skills are a better fit for their line up. On the other hand, the Royals have shown commitment to rostering players with plus gloves.

No and no.  Royals, by media accounts, are desperate to dump Ventura.  Why would you propose more than 2 players for Ventura in a trade?  Doesn't seem right to me, but I admit I'm not on the side of the "trade Plouffe for anything just to get rid of him" group.  I'm also not sure of what Gonsalves future with the Twins is really like.

 

Swapping Nunez for Plouffe in that trade?  I think it indisputable that Nunez is our best player now.  If trading Nunez is actually on the table, you'd wait until after the Allstar break and feed on the other team's desperation.

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 6/9/2016 at 1:19 PM, jorgenswest said:

I would offer Plouffe and Gonsalves. I wonder if the Royals would prefer Nunez over Plouffe. His offensive skills are a better fit for their line up. On the other hand, the Royals have shown commitment to rostering players with plus gloves.

 

I don't think I'd offer Gonsalves. This guy comes with so much risk, he reminds me of the WR from cleveland whose name escapes me. Great talent when on the field, but can't be trusted to be on the field. (Gordon, that's his name).

[jorgenswest]

I am not sure I would do the trade either but I do think it is the level of return that the Royals can expect. The Royals won't need to dump him. There will be enough interest. I don't have enough confidence in the Twins ability to help Ventura maximize his talents.

[gunnarthor]

Royals deny shopping him while the reporter doubles down and says he has more sources - 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/06/royals-have-recently-offered-yordano-ventura-in-trades.html

 

My guess is that the Royals could get a pretty good haul for him, warts and all. First, his contract is pretty team friendly.  Second, even if he fails as a starter, he has the stuff to be a darn good bullpen piece and his contract isn't so high that a team would feel the need to start him to make it work.  Third, he has good stuff so teams will dream on that.  Lastly, next years free agent class for pitchers is utterly horrible.  The possibility of getting a good starter (or solid bullpen piece at worse) will get a pretty good bidding war going, even if Ventura continues to slump.  And that's unlikely, b/c he's better than how he has pitched so he's likely to have a few good starts coming up just to remind people that he is good. 

[Vanimal46]

Good luck to which ever team acquires him. It won't be the Twins and I am perfectly fine with that. 

[tobi0040]

  On 6/9/2016 at 3:29 PM, Vanimal46 said:

Good luck to which ever team acquires him. It won't be the Twins and I am perfectly fine with that.

But look big picture. You could likely get a front of the rotation guy on a 3-18 deal at a discounted price. On the draft thread folks are throwing around drafting a 1-1 talent in Groome at #15 using a little creativity.

 

This franchise needs upside arms. In the span of a week or so we could add Groome and Ventura, exactly the type of talent we need. But we likely have ruled both out and both are a complete fantasy.

[TheLeviathan]

I would say your use of the word "likely" is way over doing it.  

 

Not everyone that throws 99 can be fixed and it becomes even harder when what is broken is between the ears.

[Vanimal46]

 

  On 6/9/2016 at 3:39 PM, tobi0040 said:

But look big picture. You could likely get a front of the rotation guy on a 3-18 deal at a discounted price. On the draft thread folks are throwing around drafting a 1-1 talent in Groome at #15 using a little creativity.

This franchise needs upside arms. In the span of a week or so we could add Groome and Ventura, exactly the type of talent we need. But we likely have ruled both out and both are a complete fantasy.

IMO the big picture is the Royals, who are still very much in contention and lack MLB-ready SP depth, are actively looking to get rid of this player. They would rather take a chance with a replacement level player than let him continue to be in the organization. The pitching ability is there, but there's something going on in his head that's prompting this decision. 

 

Hot heads can work out for a year or 2. The Vikings showed that with Percy Harvin... John Rocker with the Braves. Milton Bradley for a year here and there. Eventually it's not going to work out - then what are you left with?

[tobi0040]

  On 6/9/2016 at 4:09 PM, Vanimal46 said:

IMO the big picture is the Royals, who are still very much in contention and lack MLB-ready SP depth, are actively looking to get rid of this player. They would rather take a chance with a replacement level player than let him continue to be in the organization. The pitching ability is there, but there's something going on in his head that's prompting this decision. 

 

Hot heads can work out for a year or 2. The Vikings showed that with Percy Harvin... John Rocker with the Braves. Milton Bradley for a year here and there. Eventually it's not going to work out - then what are you left with?

I don't know if those are fair comps. Percy Harvin didn't try when he was on the field, Vikes staff knew he would lie about injuries because he didn't want to practice. Rocker was a racist and I think got into it with fans. MIlton Bradley had a well documented history of domestic abuse.

 

Again I think you make Ventura the closer and he isn't going to be throwing at batters. But if we made a list of immature players you could create a helluva team.

[HitInAPinch]

 

  On 6/9/2016 at 3:19 PM, gunnarthor said:

Royals deny shopping him while the reporter doubles down and says he has more sources - 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/06/royals-have-recently-offered-yordano-ventura-in-trades.html

 

My guess is that the Royals could get a pretty good haul for him, warts and all. First, his contract is pretty team friendly.  Second, even if he fails as a starter, he has the stuff to be a darn good bullpen piece and his contract isn't so high that a team would feel the need to start him to make it work.  Third, he has good stuff so teams will dream on that.  Lastly, next years free agent class for pitchers is utterly horrible.  The possibility of getting a good starter (or solid bullpen piece at worse) will get a pretty good bidding war going, even if Ventura continues to slump.  And that's unlikely, b/c he's better than how he has pitched so he's likely to have a few good starts coming up just to remind people that he is good. 

I love the old  "I got a source in the organization" and the “it’s highly inappropriate and reckless to discuss any specific trade talks about players with the media.”  routine  

 

I have to agree with you on the talent and future available pitching resources.  I'd likely take a chance, dip my toes into the pond kinda thing.  Twins should be taking chances on guys like Venture and less so on the Hughes and Nolasco's of the baseball world   

[Vanimal46]

 

  On 6/9/2016 at 4:16 PM, tobi0040 said:

I don't know if those are fair comps. Percy Harvin didn't try when he was on the field, Vikes staff knew he would lie about injuries because he didn't want to practice. Rocker was a racist and I think got into it with fans. MIlton Bradley had a well documented history of domestic abuse.

Again I think you make Ventura the closer and he isn't going to be throwing at batters. But if we made a list of immature players you could create a helluva team.

The examples probably aren't fair to Ventura as all hot heads have a different story. One common trait about them is they spend a year or 2 on a team before said team gets sick of their antics.

Is Ventura a front of the rotation starter? Or a closer? Why would the Twins need a closer during a multi-year rebuilding effort?  

[ashbury]

  On 6/9/2016 at 4:24 PM, Vanimal46 said:

The examples probably aren't fair to Ventura as all hot heads have a different story.

"Happy players are all alike; every unhappy player is unhappy in his own way." -- Leo Tolstoy, manager, Moscow Czars