Time for a change

[Guest USAFChief]

I've been a Gardy supporter. I think he's often been blamed for things out of his control, things he did correctly that didn't work out, or things that maybe could be questioned, but were at the least defensible options.

 

No longer. I think it's time for a change.

 

While there are certainly things wrong with the Twins that aren't his fault, I think we've reached the point of admitting this team isn't performing as well as it could. I said it in the game thread today, I'll say it here...the stench of losing is beginning to permeate this organization and it has reached the point where you can see it on the field.

 

I don't think it's reasonable to say the team we saw play in Chicago this week is, day in and day out, prepared to play winning baseball. I don't think any player on that team expected to win today's game when the first pitch was thrown, and worse, although this is easy to say from 2000 miles away, I get the feeling nobody really gives a crap. I get the feeling pretty much every veteren is often going through the motions, right down to and including Mauer. I get the feeling losing is starting to be an accepted, and acceptable, outcome. Failure is the easiest thing to accomplish. Time and again we see the same simple mistakes, over and over, with seemingly no repercussions, and worse, no improvement. It's one thing to lack talent, it's another to not care. How friggin hard is it to know how many outs there are? To run the bases with smarts? To properly execute a cutoff throw?

 

At least some of that starts at the top. I know many will disagree, but I believe strongly that winning attitudes and losing attitudes make a difference. I have seen the effects of strong or weak leadership through my life, in sports and out, and believe that sometimes, groups of people achieve more than they really should. And sometimes they achieve less. It's difficult to put your finger on exactly why, but if there's a common thread in my background, it's the posivie or negative effect a few key people have on the group.

 

I certainly don't know whether a new field manager will at least get this team to play like it cares. IMO, it's time to find out. As a lifelong fan, I've lived through some tough years as a Twins fan. This feels different, somehow.

 

Maybe I'm overreacting to today's debacle, but in truth I've been thinking about this post for weeks. It's time for a change in the dugout.

[twinswon1991]

This is 3 years in a row the team has essentially given up in the 2nd half of the year, which is pretty tough to defend.

 

I have been a Gardy supporter in the past but with the team likely going into a 3-5 year rebuilding period it may be time to clean house. I highly doubt anything will happen since Terry Ryan has been reluctant to fire the medical staff and scouting department that has failed miserably for years. If Ryan gives up his interim tag, expect a new GM to overhaul the organization top to bottom.

[J-Dog Dungan]

While I may like Gardy, I do think that it might be time for a new voice, not that I know who that would be.

[Twinsoholic]

I have to agree with the recommendation. I voiced the same call during the first week of the season--premature that early, I know, but nothing about the poor play this entire season is that different from asphyxiated, lifeless play at the beginning. While I'm pleased as punch about Willingham and Plouffe and Revere and that Morneau is hitting better, I still find this team uninspired. Gardy cannot be blamed for a lot of things, but sometimes a team simply has to replace the manager to refresh the team. If the Twins did replace Gardenhire, who would be a great candidate: someone from outside the organization? The new AAA manager? Jerry White or Scott Ulger? I believe that if the Twins do not make any major trades, they have the offensive potential to do very well next season if only they get a decent rotation--you can define decent how you like.

[Mike Sixel]

They throw to the wrong base, they lose count of outs, they get picked off, they just don't look professional. Either Gardy or the minor league coaches, or both, need to go.

[Highabove]

Tom Kelly has stated that one of the reasons he retired, was that the Players were starting to tune him out.

Almost every Manager has a Shelf life. Talking about his last Season,Terry Francona stated "I was no longer getting through to my Players."

Almost every Manager reaches this point. There are a few exceptions such as Tony La Russa. The day may even come when Joe Maddon decides to move on.

This is not a bad reflection on Gardenhire, it happens to almost everybody. Even Bud Grant reached this point!!

[IdahoPilgrim]

I have to concur. I think Gardy has been a fine manager, and has added far more than he's cost us. But after a while it's easy for a manager, for players, and for an organization to fall into a rut, to get hemmed in by comfortable patterns without even realizing it. That's the value in periodically bringing in new blood and fresh voices. I wouldn't make a move mid-season, but maybe the understanding on all sides that, after this season, it's time to move on.

[drjim]

This is 3 years in a row the team has essentially given up in the 2nd half of the year, which is pretty tough to defend.

Considering the Twins were in second place in August in 2010 and ended up winning handily, a little unfair to suggest they gave up the second half of that year. But that's picking nits.

 

Chief, I am coming around as well. I have gone back and forth but I think I have reached the point were it is time for some new leadership on the field staff. It is not Gardy's fault that the pitching staff is atrocious this year, but I agree that the culture needs a change.

 

I also find it impossible to believe that the Twins can have another debacle, come back with the same coaching staff, and be able to sell that to season ticket holders. There will be significant losses to tickets sold no matter what, but might be able to save a few.

[JB_Iowa]

I also find it impossible to believe that the Twins can have another debacle, come back with the same coaching staff, and be able to sell that to season ticket holders. There will be significant losses to tickets sold no matter what, but might be able to save a few.

Trying to decide whether that point calls more for an end of season change in manager or in-season (either resignation or termination).

 

If it is at the end of the season, they can say to ticket holders that they are making changes -- but they are asking them to take it on faith that the change will make a difference. And that is kind of where they were last fall with the change of GM.

 

If you shake things up during the season, there is often a "honeymoon" period when the team does better. That might give people hope. But then, if it doesn't materialize, it could backfire.

 

Not sure which way they should go. (But there isn't much doubt in my mind that this organization needs to be "shook up" -- both field staff and front office).

[drjim]

Trying to decide whether that point calls more for an end of season change in manager or in-season (either resignation or termination).

 

If it is at the end of the season, they can say to ticket holders that they are making changes -- but they are asking them to take it on faith that the change will make a difference. And that is kind of where they were last fall with the change of GM.

 

If you shake things up during the season, there is often a "honeymoon" period when the team does better. That might give people hope. But then, if it doesn't materialize, it could backfire.

 

Not sure which way they should go. (But there isn't much doubt in my mind that this organization needs to be "shook up" -- both field staff and front office).

Good point, but hard to envision who could be brought in from the outside at this point for the rest of the season. Firing Gardy and having Ulger as the interim for the rest of the year strikes me as a recipe for even more disaster than the season will be.

[Highabove]

Within a few days following the end of the Season, the Twins will start asking Season Ticket Holders for down payments on the following Season.

[Badsmerf]

I've never really been high on Gardy. He's improved on a number of things that made him a bad manager to start his career with the Twins, but the things he did well are no longer there. JR should retire or find a real replacement and Gardy should be done. Get new people in here that wont let the inmates run the asylum. This team is a joke right now, people usually get fired for this kind of prolonged ineptitude.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Trying to decide whether that point calls more for an end of season change in manager or in-season (either resignation or termination).

 

If it is at the end of the season, they can say to ticket holders that they are making changes -- but they are asking them to take it on faith that the change will make a difference. And that is kind of where they were last fall with the change of GM.

 

If you shake things up during the season, there is often a "honeymoon" period when the team does better. That might give people hope. But then, if it doesn't materialize, it could backfire.

 

Not sure which way they should go. (But there isn't much doubt in my mind that this organization needs to be "shook up" -- both field staff and front office).

Gardenhire deserves better than to be fired mid-season. Yes, he has a poor record in the playoffs, but he's gotten us to the playoffs more than any other manager we've had. That in itself earns him the right to depart in dignity after the season is over.

[nicksaviking]

If a move was in the making, Terry Ryan would give Gardy the option of saving face and resigning/retiring in the off-season. He may very well think it's time to call it quits anyway.

[Highabove]

Gardenhire deserves better than to be fired mid-season. Yes, he has a poor record in the playoffs, but he's gotten us to the playoffs more than any other manager we've had. That in itself earns him the right to depart in dignity after the season is over.

I agree,

Ryan will not consider removing Gardenhire during the Season.

Ryan could be ordered by the Pohlad's to make a change but I doubt it.

They are still achieving their main goal by making big Money this Summer.

[Guest USAFChief]

I guess I should have added to my original post: I doubt any change is even under consideration. I just think it should be.

 

As for timing, if it were to be done, IMO it should be done immediately. I agree it's kind of harsh to let Gardy go midseason, but this is the big leagues. Managers are hired to be fired, and they know that going in. Let Ulger finish out the season and start the search for a new manager immediately. If you don't find one before the season ends, fine, fill the position after the season.

[Pius Jefferson]

The Twins managed to right the ship enough to play .500 ball. That kind of put talk of firing Gardy and or the coaching staff on the back-burner. I think the talk will return if things really fall apart like they did last year.

[powrwrap]

I'm starting to come around to the idea of replacing Gardy as well. The players have become too comfortable with him. Gardy seems tired. You can only tell players to make the plays the proper way so many times and if they don't listen anymore you've lost the team. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in years past Gardy would discipline players that would miss a cutoff man, run the bases incorrectly, or miss signs. I don't think I've heard of anyone being fined or benched for anything this year. I don't think anyone has been in Gardy's doghouse this year.

 

Let him finish out the year, and please, please hire someone outside the organization that already has MLB managerial experience (I don't have a name in mind.)

[bird]

This may shock some of you, but I don't object to the idea of replacing Gardy. I've always viewed him as above average at managing a clubhouse and about average as a game manager. I have always assigned no better than a 50% chance of improvement under a new manager. I'm seeing the strength of the argument that perhaps Gardy has worn down. His clubhouse management appeared to be sub-par last year, and his game results have been underwhelming for two years now as evidenced by all the mental mistakes. Managers have off-seasons toop. I still think he manages the pitching staff very well, and I'd give him solid grades again for this year in that category.

 

I DO believe that his biggest problem is this collection of somewhat heartless players. Too many of these guys know the trainers too well. The body language is often pathetic. My hope is that Terry Ryan, over the course of the next several months, finds a new home for the players they know already are not tough-minded. Do we really know who thet are? We'd probably all guess most of the same names: Liriano, Mauer, Morneau, Span, Baker, Valencia, And Casilla are some of my suspects. I get the sense that Willingham and Doumit are grinders. But I could be totally off base on some of these. Regardless, wouldn't you really enjoy watching a team that always appeared to be playing both hard and tough?

[twinsnorth49]

What manager wins with this sad sack of pitchers? (with apologies to Scott Diamond). How do you discipline a player for continually making errors when there is no one there to threaten for his job. It happened with Valencia but there is no other position where that is even a possibility, Gardy is stuck with this mess and you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig.

 

I understand the sentiment on this and perhaps it's time considering how much upheaval this team is likely facing in the next 3-4 years at least. At the end of the day though it's just window dressing, Gardy ain't the problem.

[mnfireman]

You gotta have bench players in order to bench players! While not a big fan of Gardy, he's trotting the players given him out there every day with hopes of winning. Monday night Liriano blows up, Tuesday night the bullpen s***s the bed, and today Blackburn proved again what a mistake it was to think he is a MLB player. That said, the defense and baserunning, once staples of the "Twins Way" and the days of the Piranha's, is horrible. Willingham is what we thought he was, a masher who's glove left a little to be desired. Revere also is what we thought he was, a fourth OF thrust into a starting role who's arm is exploited almost nightly, but runs down flyballs that no other player on the planet gets to. Plouffe has settled in nicely at 3B and Carroll is solid but spectacular wherever he plays. Mauer and Morneau are above average at 1B and Butera and Mauer at C are Gold Glove worthy. However, Span has stepped backwards both in the field and on the bases, Casilla is a mess, Dozier is, at best, inconsistent and Doumit, well he hits well and can catch the ball, unless he is in LF, where he doesn't know where to throw the ball. The starting pitching is crap, but thats on the front office, and the bullpen, well when was the last time Gardy handled a bullpen well. Oh yeah, the year he wore out Crain & Guerrier and Capps & Rauch were still good.

[Highabove]

Keep an eye on Gene Gleen, Manager in Rochester.

Gleen was a rare outside of the Organization hire. Big improvement in Rochester this year. Has the credentials.

If Ryan does make a change next year, he will give more weight to someone in the Organization.

Gene Glynn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[howeda7]

Zero-chance of a mid-season firing. Gardy deserves better than that and there's no point. If they collapse like last year, there's at least a chance of it happening after the season. I'm neutral on it. But unless they coax TK out of retirement, it's hard to get fired up about Scotty Ulger or Gene Gleen and that's probably what we're looking at.

[DaveW]

I still don't think knee jerk firings solves anything. But maybe it's time to bring a more "hard ass" manager into this club. The amount of mistakes the past couple years has been an embarrassment. That said, I still think Gardenhire is a very good manager and one of the better ones in the game, it will be tough to replace him and often times the replacement won't be an upgrade, look no further then the Red Sox running Francona out of town to see an example. At the end of the day I say keep Gardy for another year.

 

This I do know:

 

Span needs to go, like right now. I don't know what the hell his problem is but for whatever reason he has looked like dog **** in the field the past few weeks and has somehow looked even worse on the basepaths then previously, his head is clearly not in the game. Someone said the "stress of trade rumors bothers him?" Well, at this point, I don't really care, act like a Damn professional out there ,sack up like a man and stop making boneheaded mistakes, yes sometimes things don't go the way you plan, get over it, your an adult. The guy has made Carlos Gomez look like a savvy veteran lately.

 

Butera needs to go, not that he is a bad person, doesn't do the right things etc, the Twins need to set an example that they need MAJOR LEAGUE caliber players at every position.

 

Alexi needs to go, trade him for a PTBL if thats all you can get, the kid has some talent but at this point he's a waste of a roster space and never going to get it together.

 

If you are going to have some below average OF playing LF, for the love of God at least make sure they know:

1. How many outs there are.

2. Which base to throw to in which situation.

 

It's one thing for Willingham to have zero range and misplay balls, it's another thing for him to throw to the wrong freaking base! That is stuff you learn in little league. I mean it was great he gave us 4 RBI and 2HR the other day, but when you are misplaying balls all over the place and throwing to the wrong base you are giving those runs right back.

 

Get rid of Blackburn: I like the guy, I thought he was a solid pitcher and as a fellow Okie I have always been his biggest supporter, at some point we need to just get rid of players who don't factor into usual plans from here on out.

 

Pray Capps can get healthy before the August 31st deadline and trade him for anything. Might as well see if Perkins or Burton can at least hold there own in the "save situations".

 

Ditto with Pavano.

 

I'm as big of a Twins homer as they come, but this last series was complete and utter garbage and truly an embarrassment.

[CDog]

When it was said in the game thread today (as mentioned in the OP), I had my usual reaction. Hated the thought of it. But there was a difference in that feeling in that it wasn't as intense as in the past. Saw this thread and knew the topic and wanted to disagree as much as I could. Just couldn't really find anything there that isn't at least understandable. At the same time, I agree with some of the responses that a lot lot lot of what's gone wrong the last year and a half isn't on Gardenhire. How much is and isn't his fault is often guesswork. But I also am starting to wonder or even think that even if it's not a matter of blame--even if it's not his fault--that it's not something that would bother me as much as in the past if he were let go. And I can even think of a situation where it might be the right choice even if it's definitely not his fault. In any case, it's going to bum me out if/when it happens.

 

I will add that I do disagree that it should happen during the season. No reason for it, and just not right in my opinion.

 

And as much as I hate to respond to nonsense, I'm still me and feel compelled to mention that the 2nd half of this season hasn't really happened yet. The 2nd half of last year was awful, (but so was the first), and the 2nd half of the 2010 the Twins went 50-31. 50-31!!! And the year before that they went 46-36 and closed the gap to win a division. If you have to make stuff up to support your point, it's likely your point isn't all that strong.

[TexTwinsFan]

While I understand Birdwatcher's comments regarding the Twins roster needing more players with toughness, I think it's directly linked to Gardy and his handling of young players. A lot of players that play with an edge find their way into Gardy's doghouse, e.g. Garza, Lohse, Valencia. It's also usually early in their tenor with the big club and at least half never find there way out of it. Even one of his eventual favorites, Cuddyer, was jerked around a bit before finally establishing himself. Thank goodness Perkins and Morneau pulled themselves out of the 1st/2nd year tailspin too. It might be a carryover philosophy from TK to tear down rookies before building them up, but the ratio of guys it appears to damage is near the top of the list why a regime change is warranted in my mind.

[Guest USAFChief]

And as much as I hate to respond to nonsense, I'm still me and feel compelled to mention that the 2nd half of this season hasn't really happened yet. The 2nd half of last year was awful, (but so was the first), and the 2nd half of the 2010 the Twins went 50-31. 50-31!!! And the year before that they went 46-36 and closed the gap to win a division. If you have to make stuff up to support your point, it's likely your point isn't all that strong.

 

Just to be clear...I didn't say anything about "second halfs." That was in a response from someone else.

[glunn]

I am impressed by the original post and many of the subsequent posts. I agree that when the season is over, Gardy needs to move on.

[johnnydakota]

Good point, but hard to envision who could be brought in from the outside at this point for the rest of the season. Firing Gardy and having Ulger as the interim for the rest of the year strikes me as a recipe for even more disaster than the season will be.

ulger,scotty ulger? just saying that name makes me vomit a little in my mouth...why bring or give this team to a gardy guy?

tk handed the team off to ronny"the waddler" gardenhire,who continued preaching the company propaganda...if you are going to make a change... start with "shoeless" david st pete (shoes cost money skin grows back free) then replace terry"queball"ryan ,the game has passed him by, he now is only the puppet selling the kool-aid. as for ronnie "the waddler" gardenhire, most sang his praise . to me he was a good coach , just not a good manager....time for him to be voted off the island and he needs to take his entire @ssclown posse with him ulger liddle vavra anderson.....as for replacing them , if im ceo pohlad, i would look at other teams, like tampa bay,and try and pry away some of there front office ...as we know jim pohlad wants to put the best product on the field as long as it doesnt take his time or money...

[DPJ]

I could go on and on about my hatred of Gardy, but I'll save it for now.

 

Gardy's had a great run in Minnesota, hell I might love the 2002 MN Twins more then both the championship teams. But the time has some to a new regime to take over managing this team. Please not someone who was born and raised on "Twins Baseball" But a fresh outside voice who will bring something new to the organization.