Article: Change At The Top?

[dxpavelka]

 

Your "facts" appear to be saying there's one good GM who wins the World Series and 29 equally failed GMs who didn't.    If GMs who turn losing teams into playoff contenders didn't   "actually accomplish something",   then we just have radically different ideas of accomplishment,   I guess.

See:  Ryan, Terry:  Circa:  2002-2010

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

See:  Ryan, Terry:  Circa:  2002-2010

Jumping into this tangent: I think TR did have some fine accomplishments in his earlier tenure.  It did take him awhile -- 6 seasons of thorough non-competitiveness -- but it was a pretty good run after that, even if the playoff outcomes left something to be desired.

 

I think he made a mammoth mistake in choosing his successor, and his return to the GM role has been pretty spotty, especially in trying to leverage the new resources of Target Field.

[tobi0040]

Jumping into this tangent: I think TR did have some fine accomplishments in his earlier tenure.  It did take him awhile -- 6 seasons of thorough non-competitiveness -- but it was a pretty good run after that, even if the playoff outcomes left something to be desired.

 

I think he made a mammoth mistake in choosing his successor, and his return to the GM role has been pretty spotty, especially in trying to leverage the new resources of Target Field.

Are you suggesting making your operations guy your GM was a bad move?

 

I do find it telling, that Smith was fired as GM. Then hired back as an assistant to GM to "help assess player development in Venezuela and the Dominican". You just don't see this anywhere else in the world.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/blog/sports-business/2011/12/ex-gm-bill-smith-returns-to-twins.html

Edited June 2, 2016 by tobi0040

[nicksaviking]

 

See:  Ryan, Terry:  Circa:  2002-2010

 

Right, and now we're concerned about Terry Ryan Circa 2011-2016 and particularly concerned about the years beyond.

 

This game evolves all the time. I don't want someone who clings to past success and holds it up as proof of future achievement. For the record, I don't believe Ryan does that even if some of his supporters and collaborators do.

[LaBombo]

 

See:  Ryan, Terry:  Circa:  2002-2010.

 

That was ultimately a disappointing run of years,  to be sure.    It's also nearly three more years than the combined tenures of the three GMs who you feel have accomplished nothing so far.   In that shorter time span the 'unaccomplished' GMs you named have as many playoff series wins as Ryan's teams did '02-'10.

 

It's also interesting that you apparently see those years as primarily Terry Ryan's failure.   Ryan assembled two almost entirely different 90+ win cores in those years,   and yet only in Gardenhire's rookie year,   when he inherited a veteran team from Tom Kelly,  did the Twins win a playoff series during those 9 years.

 

Following that win,  Gardenhire went on a run of playoff futility of epic proportions.   His teams not only lost badly,   they simply failed to show up and compete,  and Gardenhire's managerial decisions were skewered in the national media.

 

So given a choice between the notion that Ryan assembled two almost entirely different groups of playoff choke artists and the idea that maybe an otherwise good manager is mostly to blame for multiple 90+ win teams being almost entirely unable to win a playoff game,   let alone a series,   I'm forced to go with the latter choice.

Edited June 2, 2016 by LaBombo

[chopper0080]

For any of those on the fence...last nights lineup sums it up

 

1-Nunez

2-Grossman

3-Dozier

4-Ploufee

5-Park

6-Escobar

7-Kepler

8-Centeno

9-Buxton

 

SP Pat Dean

 

If that lineup doesn't deserve to get a front office fired, I don't know what does.

[old nurse]

 

Are you suggesting making your operations guy your GM was a bad move?

I do find it telling, that Smith was fired as GM. Then hired back as an assistant to GM to "help assess player development in Venezuela and the Dominican". You just don't see this anywhere else in the world.

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/blog/sports-business/2011/12/ex-gm-bill-smith-returns-to-twins.html

Is there something wrong with the players we have been getting out of  Venezuela and the Dominican?

Sanao, Arcia, and Santana on the 25 man, Polanco, Vargas, Vielma,  Javier, Diaz, Landa, Romero, Randy Rosario, Jorge  and Palacios on the top prospect lists.  There are a quite a few others not on lists. Smith might not know how to run a major league team but it would appear he has some success with obtaining talent in Venezuela and the Dominican

[Mike Sixel]

 

For any of those on the fence...last nights lineup sums it up

 

1-Nunez

2-Grossman

3-Dozier

4-Ploufee

5-Park

6-Escobar

7-Kepler

8-Centeno

9-Buxton

 

SP Pat Dean

 

If that lineup doesn't deserve to get a front office fired, I don't know what does.

 

It's only 4-5 years into the rebuild. What do you expect?

[Otto von Ballpark]

Are you suggesting making your operations guy your GM was a bad move?

 

I do find it telling, that Smith was fired as GM. Then hired back as an assistant to GM to "help assess player development in Venezuela and the Dominican". You just don't see this anywhere else in the world.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/blog/sports-business/2011/12/ex-gm-bill-smith-returns-to-twins.html

I think that was more about building the academies than any direct player development stuff.

[S.]

 

For any of those on the fence...last nights lineup sums it up

 

1-Nunez

2-Grossman

3-Dozier

4-Ploufee

5-Park

6-Escobar

7-Kepler

8-Centeno

9-Buxton

 

SP Pat Dean

 

If that lineup doesn't deserve to get a front office fired, I don't know what does.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Images/popup/2015/6/words.gif

[tobi0040]

I think that was more about building the academies than any direct player development stuff.

Tough to dissect the words into something meaningful. But "assess player development" seems like a scouting/talent evaluation role. I can't say for sure.

 

Pretty funny though how the Twins have a lifer who they like and move them around to completely unrelated areas. Operations, GM, oversee construction projects, etc.

[tobi0040]

Is there something wrong with the players we have been getting out of Venezuela and the Dominican?

Sanao, Arcia, and Santana on the 25 man, Polanco, Vargas, Vielma, Javier, Diaz, Landa, Romero, Randy Rosario, Jorge and Palacios on the top prospect lists. There are a quite a few others not on lists. Smith might not know how to run a major league team but it would appear he has some success with obtaining talent in Venezuela and the Dominican

He came back in 2011. Some of these guys were here before that. On that list, Sano is the only starter on a good team that we know for sure.

[dxpavelka]

 

That was ultimately a disappointing run of years,  to be sure.    It's also nearly three more years than the combined tenures of the three GMs who you feel have accomplished nothing so far.   In that shorter time span the 'unaccomplished' GMs you named have as many playoff series wins as Ryan's teams did '02-'10.

 

It's also interesting that you apparently see those years as primarily Terry Ryan's failure.   Ryan assembled two almost entirely different 90+ win cores in those years,   and yet only in Gardenhire's rookie year,   when he inherited a veteran team from Tom Kelly,  did the Twins win a playoff series during those 9 years.

 

Following that win,  Gardenhire went on a run of playoff futility of epic proportions.   His teams not only lost badly,   they simply failed to show up and compete,  and Gardenhire's managerial decisions were skewered in the national media.

 

So given a choice between the notion that Ryan assembled two almost entirely different groups of playoff choke artists and the idea that maybe an otherwise good manager is mostly to blame for multiple 90+ win teams being almost entirely unable to win a playoff game,   let alone a series,   I'm forced to go with the latter choice.

Not quite sure how or what you read into my comments to make you believe I view 2002-2010 as a failure on Terry Ryan's part.  If the last 15 years and the last 5 in particular have taught us anything, that thing should be that it's a hell of a lot better to get to the playoffs and not win than to be relegated to playing meaningless ball by August, or July, or June, or May. 

[LaBombo]

 

Not quite sure how or what you read into my comments to make you believe I view 2002-2010 as a failure on Terry Ryan's part.  If the last 15 years and the last 5 in particular have taught us anything, that thing should be that it's a hell of a lot better to get to the playoffs and not win than to be relegated to playing meaningless ball by August, or July, or June, or May. 

 

Let's back up.   You injected the idea of 'no World Series wins' accrued in Epstein's and Friedman's VERY brief time on the job as a way of gauging what you view as very limited success on their part.

 

When I noted the questionable usefulness of such an all-or-nothing approach,  you offered this   -   and only this   -   as a counter:

 

"See:Ryan, Terry:Circa:2002-2010"

 

I'm not quite sure how you're not quite sure how anybody can "read into" that footnote just about anything they want to,   up to but maybe not quite including Ryan's favorite color.

 

So I'm still wondering why you brought him up in the first place.    He wasn't a success as a GM during that run by your standard of World Series wins,  or even playoff wins for that matter.   And if he was a success,   how are Epstein and Friedman not massively more successful,   having achieved dramatic turnarounds in a fraction of the near-decade it took Ryan?

 

And no,   you absolutely,   positively CANNOT use payroll as a means to downplay their success compared to Ryan,   because Ryan HIMSELF has insisted multiple times (as have his employers) during this Twins' half-decade of futility that money is not an issue.

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2016 by LaBombo

[old nurse]

 

He came back in 2011. Some of these guys were here before that. On that list, Sano is the only starter on a good team that we know for sure.

Bill Smith has never left. I responded to a comment about Bill Smith's scouting ability. All of these players were signed when Smith was GM or involved in Latin America.

[old nurse]

 

 

Let's back up.   You injected the idea of 'no World Series wins' accrued in Epstein's and Friedman's VERY brief time on the job as a way of gauging what you view as very limited success on their part.

 

When I noted the questionable usefulness of such an all-or-nothing approach,  you offered this   -   and only this   -   as a counter:

 

"See:Ryan, Terry:Circa:2002-2010"

 

I'm not quite sure how you're not quite sure how anybody can "read into" that footnote just about anything they want to,   up to but maybe not quite including Ryan's favorite color.

 

So I'm still wondering why you brought him up in the first place.    He wasn't a success as a GM during that run by your standard of World Series wins,  or even playoff wins for that matter.   And if he was a success,   how are Epstein and Friedman not massively more successful,   having achieved dramatic turnarounds in a fraction of the near-decade it took Ryan?

 

And no,   you absolutely,   positively CANNOT use payroll as a means to downplay their success compared to Ryan,   because Ryan HIMSELF has insisted multiple times (as have his employers) during this Twins' half-decade of futility that money is not an issue.

Friedman ran the Rays, how many WS wins did they have, yet he was hired away by the Dodgers,  who are so far not improving

[LaBombo]

18 months on the job seems maybe just a wee bit premature to judge a GM,  even if he doesn't inherit tens of millions in aging,  expensive players like Friedman did.

 

As for his time in Tampa Bay,   well,  it's widely viewed as one of the most successful GM tenures in recent history.    In two years' time he took a contraction-worthy perennial 95 loss disaster and turned it into a 90+ win powerhouse that made the postseason four times in seven years despite a low payroll and playing in arguably the toughest division in baseball.    In doing so, he nearly doubled attendance.

 

So if Friedman 2006-14 wasn't a success, then Ryan 1994-2007 was an unqualified disaster,  and Ryan 2011-present is a jailable offense against the national pastime.

 

Who did you have in mind for the job?