Have seen a lot of takes recently that Ryan doesn't deserve the blame he is getting, maybe that is true, but it's hard to argue with the rotation he has actively built. Everyone on the opening day rotation with the exception of Gibson was someone who he brought in from the outside....the results thus far? Beyond terrible. $44 million spent this year on the opening day rotation for negative WAR overall.

 

 

 

 

 

Ricky Nolasco: $49 million dollars (goes to 61 million if he has 400IP in 2016-2017 combined) (12 mil this year)

 

2016 numbers: 1-3, 5.54 ERA -0.4 WAR

 

Ervin Santana: $44 million dollars. Goes up to 57 million depending on IP.  (13.5 mil this year)

 

2016 numbers: 1-3, 4.17 ERA, 0.5 WAR

 

Phil Hughes: $56 million dollars. ($9.2 mil this year, 13.2 mil the next 3 years)

 

2016 numbers: 1-7, 5.50 ERA, 0.0 WAR

 

Tommy Milone: 4.5 million this year.

 

2016 numbers: 0-1, 5.79 ERA, -0.3 WAR

 

Kyle Gibson: 587k this year

 

2016 numbers: 0-3, 6.10 ERA -0.2 WAR

 

 

Conclusion:

 

$44 million spent on the "opening day" rotation:

 

3-17, 5.37 ERA, -0.4 WAR

 

 

 

 

 

 

Poor guy can't catch a break.

It is amazing how bad it is. And, this is on Ryan. The GM makes the calls on free agents and trades. I remain confused how people can look at this, and the trades for Meyer and May, and think this GM is the one to lead them to the promised land.

It is amazing how bad it is. And, this is on Ryan. The GM makes the calls on free agents and trades. I remain confused how people can look at this, and the trades for Meyer and May, and think this GM is the one to lead them to the promised land.

Way to early to call the May trade a mistake. I still think he could be a solid #2 type, of course they would have to put him the rotation first...

Edited May 25, 201610 yr by DaveW

Agreed.....But so far, it is not good, for many reasons. They would rather he be a reliever apparently. I tend to judge outsole on actions, not words.

Agreed.....But so far, it is not good, for many reasons. They would rather he be a reliever apparently. I tend to judge outsole on actions, not words.

meh even if May only becomes a bullpen guy, I don't think it is or was a bad trade. Revere isn't that great.

If....yes. But we are off topic....the rotation is awful, and it is made up of free agents and a traded for guy. The issues here go beyond an inability to draft and develop.

If....yes. But we are off topic....the rotation is awful, and it is made up of free agents and a traded for guy. The issues here go beyond an inability to draft and develop.

agreed, total system failure is the right word for sure.

 

If....yes. But we are off topic....the rotation is awful, and it is made up of free agents and a traded for guy. The issues here go beyond an inability to draft and develop.

Aw, we've drafted just fine, though, right? Am I wrong?

In consideration of the state of our starting pitching at the time when Nolasco and Hughes were signed and and the available free agents that off season... I can't fault Terry Ryan for that. 

 

Same thing when you consider what the rotation looked like when Santana was signed. 

 

But... weather he should have signed anyone and gone full rebuild is certainly debatable. 

 

Once he decided to not go full rebuild... We were fated for Nolasco and Hughes and Santana. 

 

And the Hughes extension... That's on Ryan. 

I know one thing... The starting pitching staff Ryan has built is no Noah's Ark. If the Ryan were Noah in the religious text, all the animals and humans would have died.

Edited May 26, 201610 yr by Bark's Lounge

 

In consideration of the state of our starting pitching at the time when Nolasco and Hughes were signed and and the available free agents that off season... I can't fault Terry Ryan for that. 

 

Same thing when you consider what the rotation looked like when Santana was signed. 

 

But... weather he should have signed anyone and gone full rebuild is certainly debatable. 

 

Once he decided to not go full rebuild... We were fated for Nolasco and Hughes and Santana. 

 

And the Hughes extension... That's on Ryan. 

I have no issues with the Santana signing and still don't,  really.  He's had some bad luck on BABIP and he has a history of pitching well.

 

And the Hughes extension, yeah, definitely on Ryan.

It helps that the Twins absolutely SUCK at developing starting pitching. If they could have coached up/developed Berrios better he'd still be with the Twins. Same goes with Meyer. Until the Twins can develop starters from the minors better we are stuck with this junk.

 

It helps that the Twins absolutely SUCK at developing starting pitching. If they could have coached up/developed Berrios better he'd still be with the Twins. Same goes with Meyer. Until the Twins can develop starters from the minors better we are stuck with this junk.

If what you are saying is true, I think that Berrios has the tools to overcome that barrier. I don't believe that Meyer and Berrios are in same classification developmentally, and Berrios seems to have that mental willfulness, that Meyers does not have. That is a simple man's observation.

 

I know one thing... The starting pitching staff Ryan has built is no Noah's Ark. If the Ryan were Noah in the religious text, all the animals and humans would have died.

Whew...thought you were about to suggest there were two Nolascos on the horizon. 

If what you are saying is true, I think that Berrios has the tools to overcome that barrier. I don't believe that Meyer and Berrios are in same classification developmentally, and Berrios seems to have that mental willfulness, that Meyers does not have. That is a simple man's observation.

I hope so. The track record for the Twins starting pitching is horrible. The last pitcher the Twins drafted who panned out well was...Brad Radke. Look at the starters who have failed since then: Fransisco Liriano, Matt Garza, Kevin Slowey, Scott Baker, Liam Hendricks, Kyle Gibson (jury is still out on him). You'd think at least one of these guys could develop into a good MLB starting pitcher.

I hope so. The track record for the Twins starting pitching is horrible. The last pitcher the Twins drafted who panned out well was...Brad Radke. Look at the starters who have failed since then: Fransisco Liriano, Matt Garza, Kevin Slowey, Scott Baker, Liam Hendricks, Kyle Gibson (jury is still out on him). You'd think at least one of these guys could develop into a good MLB starting pitcher.

Garza and Liriano have had very successful careers. I'd hardly call them failures.

Also, Liriano wasnt drafted by us. We acquired him in the AJ trade.

I never understood any of these signings in the first place. What is the point of signing mediocre pitchers to long term contracts on a losing team? To get a worse draft pick? They should of focused on the rebuild years ago and now we are facing the consequences. Time to clean house in the organization. Hopefully the can find the MLB version of Rick Spielman. 

 

 

Garza and Liriano have had very successful careers. I'd hardly call them failures.
Also, Liriano wasnt drafted by us. We acquired him in the AJ trade.

Garza had a pretty solid 8 years or so as well

 

 

I hope so. The track record for the Twins starting pitching is horrible. The last pitcher the Twins drafted who panned out well was...Brad Radke. Look at the starters who have failed since then: Fransisco Liriano, Matt Garza, Kevin Slowey, Scott Baker, Liam Hendricks, Kyle Gibson (jury is still out on him). You'd think at least one of these guys could develop into a good MLB starting pitcher.

Baker had a 5 year run of about 3 WAR/yr. That is hardly a failure. Hendricks was a 170K bonus baby. Not hardly a star in the making, but what you might expect for that money? The pitching  equivalent to Sano? . Slowey had 3 fair years, not a failure nor a great success. Merely average.    Blackburn was a 29th round draft pick (856 plus a few international free agents were thought to be better players) and they got 2 years of back of rotation service from him,   The Twins had 7 first round pitchers selected  between Garza and Berrios. Gibson is the only one to make it from that group. That would be the problem of the Twins frontline starters. Is it drafting or development issues? However, since slotting of player bonus took effect the pitching looks more promising.

Edited May 26, 201610 yr by old nurse

 

I never understood any of these signings in the first place. What is the point of signing mediocre pitchers to long term contracts on a losing team? To get a worse draft pick? They should of focused on the rebuild years ago and now we are facing the consequences. Time to clean house in the organization. Hopefully the can find the MLB version of Rick Spielman. 

 

The problem I think more than anything is too  many of them to too long of contracts. Someone has to take the hill every 5th day.  We needed pitchers now and there was nothing in the farm close to being ready. 

 

The problem I think more than anything is too  many of them to too long of contracts. Someone has to take the hill every 5th day.  We needed pitchers now and there was nothing in the farm close to being ready. 

THANK YOU!  Goodness, gracious, gravy me.  How short a memory some may be.

 

Oh god, I'm channeling my grandmother.......

It's not just the rotation but the entire staff. Here is the rank of Terry's pitching staff the last five years (not a small sample size).

 

2012: last in the AL

2013: 14 out of 15

2014: 14 out of 15

2015: 8 out of 15

2016: 14 out of 15

 

 

One year of mediocre and 4 years  of really bad. This is on Terry he runs the show! 

I know that the Twins aren't big on sabermetrics and all, but numbers in terms of age don't lie.  I've said it on other threads, said it when they signed Nolasco and Santana, you can't sign 30+ year old pitchers and expect positive results.  Father Time is undefeated.  The numbers for pitchers that get over the magic 3-0 are not good...unless you are Roger Clemens.  I don't understand why we keep trying to defy the odds.

 

I know that the Twins aren't big on sabermetrics and all, but numbers in terms of age don't lie.  I've said it on other threads, said it when they signed Nolasco and Santana, you can't sign 30+ year old pitchers and expect positive results.  Father Time is undefeated.  The numbers for pitchers that get over the magic 3-0 are not good...unless you are Roger Clemens.  I don't understand why we keep trying to defy the odds.

You can throw Hughes in there as well, since they gave him 3 years $42 million for ages 31, 32, 33

 

I never understood any of these signings in the first place. What is the point of signing mediocre pitchers to long term contracts on a losing team? To get a worse draft pick? They should of focused on the rebuild years ago and now we are facing the consequences. Time to clean house in the organization. Hopefully the can find the MLB version of Rick Spielman. 

 

If I remember correctly many on this board argued that you can never have enough pitching, that you need to take risks in FA and or supplement your team via FA to make the team competitive.  That there was no reason not to spend the money on FA's to try and field a competitive team.  It looks like TR took some chances in FA and unfortunately failed  miserably.  It happens to a lot of teams.

Something needed to happen.  That I don't think was up for debate.  The 2012/13 rotations were bad.  Problem is that to get decent ones, you had to go long term.  Now we have 3 long term contracts in the rotation, and only one is still decent. 

 

Unfortunately, so much of this discussion tends to be revisionist in nature as it's really easy to forget the context of what lead to them.

 

  It looks like TR took some chances in FA and unfortunately failed  miserably.  It happens to a lot of teams.

But only one team can be the "worst" at it, and the Twins clearly are that.

 

Those weren't really that big of "chances" to begin with since Hughes, Santana and Nolasco were nothing special and mid rotation guys at best to begin with, every saw it.

Edited May 26, 201610 yr by DaveW

 

 

Something needed to happen.  That I don't think was up for debate.  The 2012/13 rotations were bad.  Problem is that to get decent ones, you had to go long term.  Now we have 3 long term contracts in the rotation, and only one is still decent. 

 

Unfortunately, so much of this discussion tends to be revisionist in nature as it's really easy to forget the context of what lead to them.

You act like the only way to get pitchers are to sign them to long term contracts, there were plenty of people wanting the Twins to give a guy like Kazmir a 1 or 2 year deal, every year there are plenty of guys you can snag for 1 or 2 years on the FA market. If you need "a guy to go out every 5th day" like you suggest, you have plenty of other options: (Trades, 1-2 year contracts) then just "well you have to sign guys long term, it is what it is"

 

Also as many people mentioned, if you are going to sign someone long term, make sure its an ace or someone with high upside. Signing a bunch of mid to back of the rotation guys (Santana, Hughes, Nolasco) for a bunch of money is sort of a waste IMO. With the money spent on those three they could have very easily gotten an ace like Cueto and still had enough left for a mid rotation type guy.