Article: Twins Minor League Report (5/17): Jay Keeps Rolling

[Mike Sixel]

It's not a tragedy that they aren't up yet......I just don't agree with Wade and Gonsalves being where they are still. It will be a tragedy in a month or so......if they keep this up. There is no on the level above them that should be stopping them from going up.

 

It's a matter of disagreeing at this point....not some national emergency (see my sig.....).

[Seth Stohs]

 

So the Twins will prematurely add Berrios to the 40 man roster, just so they can give him a super short leash (4 starts).
But, they can't promote Gonsalves to AA until they are sure he'll stick there?
Don't those seem a little contradictory?

 

I don't think so... 

Big picture, what's the rush to get Gonsalves to AA? He's not pitching in MLB this year, is he? He doesn't have to be added to the 40-man roster until after the 2017 season. Next year, he'll pitch at Chattanooga and possibly Rochester in 2017. Puts him in a good situation going in to being added. 

[carlito_b]

Nope I just missed that post. Thanks for the heads up

[carlito_b]

Nope I just missed that post. Thanks for the heads up

[Mike Sixel]

 

I don't think so... 

Big picture, what's the rush to get Gonsalves to AA? He's not pitching in MLB this year, is he? He doesn't have to be added to the 40-man roster until after the 2017 season. Next year, he'll pitch at Chattanooga and possibly Rochester in 2017. Puts him in a good situation going in to being added. 

 

I'll answer that. He could be in the rotation in 2017, for an aggressive team. He could be in AA soon. then a bit next year, then AAA later in 2017, ready for a promotion. 

 

Of course, he could top out at AA this year.....but an aggressive org would move him up, and would have him positioned to be in the rotation next year if he's ready.

 

Instead of worrying about keeping a guy off the 40 man, to save space for bad players, I'd like to see them be aggressive and have guys just waiting for their turn.

 

I don't expect this team to operate that way, but I'd like it.

 

edit: The Twins are terrible. They should be trying to get new players in MN sooner, rather than later.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Mike Sixel

[Mr. Brooks]

I don't think so...

Big picture, what's the rush to get Gonsalves to AA? He's not pitching in MLB this year, is he? He doesn't have to be added to the 40-man roster until after the 2017 season. Next year, he'll pitch at Chattanooga and possibly Rochester in 2017. Puts him in a good situation going in to being added.

Because if he's at a level that's not challenging him then he might as well be sitting at home on his couch, it's not helping his development.

Players learn by being challenged and learning how to adjust. I just don't see how him and Wade can possibly be forced to make any significant adjustments with as easy as they are making it look right now.

 

I don't believe it harms a player one bit if you promote them aggressively and have to move them back down if it turns out they are not ready. In fact, it might be good for their development because then they know exactly what doesn't work at the next level.

[Seth Stohs]

 

I'll answer that. He could be in the rotation in 2017, for an aggressive team. He could be in AA soon. then a bit next year, then AAA later in 2017, ready for a promotion. 

 

Of course, he could top out at AA this year.....but an aggressive org would move him up, and would have him positioned to be in the rotation next year if he's ready.

 

Instead of worrying about keeping a guy off the 40 man, to save space for bad players, I'd like to see them be aggressive and have guys just waiting for their turn.

 

I don't expect this team to operate that way, but I'd like it.

 

edit: The Twins are terrible. They should be trying to get new players in MN sooner, rather than later.

 

My point was that he isn't going to be added this year. I mean, two years ago, Berrios was still in Ft. Myers for a couple more weeks, and he ended the season in Rochester. It could happen.  I just generally don't think 2-3 weeks of promotion timeline in May or June has much bearing on 2017. I also would say, let's see how he does in AA before we worry about whether or not he could be in the big leagues by mid-2017. 

 

And, if he's ready mid-2017 and there is a need (there may be, or they may have a rotation of May, Meyer, Berrios, Duffey and Gibson all pitching pretty well). Too many variables to worry about. 

 

They've shown (last year with Buxton) that they aren't going to solely look at 40 man roster things, etc.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

Yeah timeline isn't the reason it bothers me

I just want these guys constantly being challenged and making adjustments.

If they think that is still happening at high A then so be it, but from the outside it sure doesn't look like it.

[Seth Stohs]

 

Because if he's at a level that's not challenging him then he might as well be sitting at home on his couch, it's not helping his development.
Players learn by being challenged and learning how to adjust. I just don't see how him and Wade can possibly be forced to make any significant adjustments with as easy as they are making it look right now.

I don't believe it harms a player one bit if you promote them aggressively and have to move them back down if it turns out they are not ready. In fact, it might be good for their development because then they know exactly what doesn't work at the next level.

 

As I've said a million times, I think Gonsalves should move up, so it's a bad example... maybe they want him to work on not walking so many. Maybe he's working on a fourth pitch and they want to give him another one of two starts. I don't know. 

 

 

[Mr. Brooks]

As I've said a million times, I think Gonsalves should move up, so it's a bad example... maybe they want him to work on not walking so many. Maybe he's working on a fourth pitch and they want to give him another one of two starts. I don't know.

Fair enough. I'd add Wade, personally, but outside of those two I don't have a problem with anyone else. Chargois to MLB maybe.

[Seth Stohs]

 

Yeah timeline isn't the reason it bothers me
I just want these guys constantly being challenged and making adjustments.
If they think that is still happening at high A then so be it, but from the outside it sure doesn't look like it.

 

I'm not in the "constantly being challenged and making adjustments" bandwagon. 

 

I mean, I am in the sense that no matter where a player is, baseball is challenging. I think sometimes it's good to see your adjustments pay off over an extended period of time in one level before moving up. Not just a one-month thing, but at least 6-8 weeks. 

 

It's like Rosario or Buxton moving back to AAA... 1.) they can take a deep breath. Some level of pressure comes down. 2.) They are playing at a little lower level and can work on some things at the level, rather than the higher level. 3.) they can experience some success (hopefully). Hopefully those mechanical or mental of physical issues that need to be addressed can be. 

 

Challenging is great. It is helpful and when it comes to the AAA to MLB move, I'm fine with it. In fact, I think it can be very positive. At the lower levels, there's just no rush... Let them experience some success, develop confidence, develop leadership skills, learn how to cope with things on an off the field, work with people for a bit of time. 

[Seth Stohs]

 

Fair enough. I'd add Wade, personally, but outside of those two I don't have a problem with anyone else. Chargois to MLB maybe.

 

Yeah, I can see Wade moving up too... but Murphy had been in CR for over 2 years and needed to be pushed. Edgar Corcino is playing well right now in the outfield. Chad Christensen is solid, and due to injury, he deserves at least a little bit of time. Austin Diemer has some qualities that need to be watched. Also, Tanner English has been out several weeks now with a concussion and when he comes back, they'll certainly want him playing every day in CF. None of those guys is really in need of being pushed to AA. So, let Wade spend 2 1/2 months in Cedar Rapids and see if that BB/K rate continues. At the mid-point, they can make tough decisions on some of those FM guys. Will they push one or two to AA and see how that goes for them? Would they release a guy or two? 

[Mr. Brooks]

Yeah, I can see Wade moving up too... but Murphy had been in CR for over 2 years and needed to be pushed. Edgar Corcino is playing well right now in the outfield. Chad Christensen is solid, and due to injury, he deserves at least a little bit of time. Austin Diemer has some qualities that need to be watched. Also, Tanner English has been out several weeks now with a concussion and when he comes back, they'll certainly want him playing every day in CF. None of those guys is really in need of being pushed to AA. So, let Wade spend 2 1/2 months in Cedar Rapids and see if that BB/K rate continues. At the mid-point, they can make tough decisions on some of those FM guys. Will they push one or two to AA and see how that goes for them? Would they release a guy or two?

2.5 MORE months? Or total on the season? 2.5 more puts us into August. I don't think they can look him in the eye for that long if he keeps this up.

If you aread saying mid to late June, ok I wouldn't wait that long but that's not terrible.

[Seth Stohs]

 

2.5 MORE months? Or total on the season? 2.5 more puts us into August. I don't think they can look him in the eye for that long if he keeps this up.
If you aread saying mid to late June, ok I wouldn't wait that long but that's not terrible.

 

April, May and maybe half of June, at most. 

[David HK]

 

And inserted directly into the closer role, whether the manager is comfortable with it or not.

Y'know, I'm so over the Molly thing, I don't care if he likes it or not.  

 

[bird]

 

This is not consistent with what we've heard quoted about mid-season call ups for teams that play in split seasons, or with comments on other teams near the ends of years. We have heard several times that the minor league playoffs matter. From Seth quoting the Twins......so, ya, I don't think we'll agree on this.

 

And no, I can't find links from previous years with those quotes, I don't go around saving stuff for fun.....

 

As for the high A staff.....how long would you wait to promote Gonsalves? How many more starts? What is the he learning right now, by completely dominating and not having to adjust?

 

 

I get what you're saying Mike, but i don't think saying the playoffs matter, or for that matter maybe on fairly rare occasions delaying a promotion until the break says much, if anything. The development staff is not going to impede a player's development. Two more starts at the lower level does not impede a prospect's development.

 

I'm glad you brought up Gonsalves, because he's a perfect example of how fans skew their thinking about how ready a guy is strictly on the basis of their desire to see the guy advance, or maybe because it gives one a chance to be critical. The reality of Gonsalve's last start: 93 pitches in what, 5 1/3 innings? Completely dominating? Hardly. Isn't it just possible that he's well-served right where he is until maybe he can eke out a 6-7 inning per formance in fewer than 93 pitches in back to back games or something? So, to answer the question, I have zero clue as to if Gonsalves is ready for the next level, just like all the rest of the gang on TD.

 

 

[Gagne Fan]

Baxendale to AAA

Martinez or Albers released

Hurlbut released

Gonsalves and Jay to AA

 

LeBlanc to AA

[bird]

 

This is mostly true about Toronto, which currently has a weaker minor league system, although I'm not sure how novel it is. It is also instructive. Before the start of last season, Toronto had a stacked minor league system for pitching. Two were promoted to the majors and played key roles in the bullpen for a playoff team, and several others were traded for star players, like Tulowitzki, Price and Donaldson (note: more expensive but also much more valuable than Jepsen). Both of those actions appear better than old fashioned lock-step promotion. Also, the Twins don't have a lot of talent reducing openings upstream in AA and AAA.

 

Which minor league prospects, pitching or otherwise, are languishng a level below where they should be? Name a few prospects for whom there isn't a valid, fact-based argument that they are well-served for now at the level they are at. Maybe Toronto did in fact promote guys faster than the Twins might've, I don't know, and I guess I'm skeptical as to how instructive those examples might be.

 

I'll grant this: the Twins give non-premium prospects more and better chances to succeed. They are exceedingly patient. This explains why Pat Dean is getting a spot start in a couple days, and why guys like Darnell Logan get a cup of coffee in MLB, and why Wimmers is still toiling away in AAA. I don't think this slows the advancement of the premium prospects like Berrios at all. I also think there are more benefits associated with this patience than there are problems with it. 

 

I agree, the Twins don't appear to have great talent, for example, in AA with guys like Baxendale, Slegers, Eades, etc., but remember, we said the same thing when Duffey was one of them.

[Taildragger8791]

I think we've all seen how rushing guys to the majors has worked out over the last few years. And I think everyone would agree it hasn't worked out swimmingly for a single player that was rushed up at this point. I'm of the mind now to just slow down and let guys develop. If they're being held down I'm sure there is an adequate reason for it that doesn't show up in a box score. Pushing a guy up based purely on results without regard to command of his fundamentals is a recipe to get blown up and exposed eventually.

[Deduno Abides]

Which minor league prospects, pitching or otherwise, are languishng a level below where they should be? Name a few prospects for whom there isn't a valid, fact-based argument that they are well-served for now at the level they are at. Maybe Toronto did in fact promote guys faster than the Twins might've, I don't know, and I guess I'm skeptical as to how instructive those examples might be.

 

 

There are always valid fact- based reasons not to promote someone. Everybody has something to work on. Even Mike Trout strikes out a lot. It's up to leadership vision and coaching to either push talent forward in an environment that supports success or to exchange it for other useful talent. When leadership doesn't do either of those, it gets stopgap role fillers that nobody else wants, like Robbie Grossman and Mike Pelfrey, and then gets a good draft choice, and then talks about the golden tomorrow when the new recruits will contribute.

[Deduno Abides]

I think we've all seen how rushing guys to the majors has worked out over the last few years. And I think everyone would agree it hasn't worked out swimmingly for a single player that was rushed up at this point. I'm of the mind now to just slow down and let guys develop. If they're being held down I'm sure there is an adequate reason for it that doesn't show up in a box score. Pushing a guy up based purely on results without regard to command of his fundamentals is a recipe to get blown up and exposed eventually.

Sometimes when an operation doesn't work, it's because the patient was a bad candidate. Other times, it's simply a bad operation and other treatments should be used. Often, however, having repeated problems with the same operation, especially when other doctors have good success with it, means the doctor should retire from practice.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Deduno Abides

[Taildragger8791]

 

There are always valid fact- based reasons not to promote someone. Everybody has something to work on. Even Mike Trout strikes out a lot. It's up to leadership vision and coaching to either push talent forward in an environment that supports success or to exchange it for other useful talent. When leadership doesn't do either of those, it gets stopgap role fillers that nobody else wants, like Robbie Grossman and Mike Pelfrey, and then gets a good draft choice, and then talks about the golden tomorrow when the new recruits will contribute.

 

I didn't say the player has to be perfect to advance. None of these players are close to Trout, not even Buxton (so far). Trout is a pretty extreme exception and I'll bet that if you analyze him you'll find that his strikeouts aren't because he's guessing, wildly hacking, or regularly missing in the zone. He has elite skills, recognizes pitches, and is disciplined enough in his swing zone to succeed. He was also gold glove caliber defense on day 1.

 

On the flip side we have young players coming up that can't recognize or hit certain pitches, can't control the zone or draw a walk to save their life, can't get a bunt down, can't play the defensive position they exclusively trained in, and make mental errors on the bases and in the field. They often feasted on inferior talent and got away with bad habits and discipline because they got results. Big difference.

 

Clearly there is an issue with how the players were being developed or allowed to progress so I have no issue with taking a step back and trying something different. Pushing guys even faster sounds like doubling down on the past mistakes.