Article: The Torii Hunter Hangover

[Cody Christie]

When a team starts out as poorly as the Twins have this season, fans are going to be left searching for answers. Is this Terry Ryan's fault for not having a better roster? Are the minor league coaches to blame for not preparing the team's top prospects? Or is there a much simpler answer?

 

Over the last week, there has been plenty of discussion about Torii Hunter not being on the current Twins squad. Even national baseball writers have noticed and wondered if Hunter could make a difference in turning this team around. Hunter himself has said that the Twins' "are kind of going through the motions."For years fans of this club have engaged in endless discussion about who the clubhouse leader is with Hunter not on the roster. Joe Mauer's quiet demeanor doesn't demand everyone's attention. Some players might react better to more subtle leadership compared to Hunter's boisterous attitude. Players like Brian Dozier and Glen Perkins have taken on leadership roles but it's not quite the same as with Hunter.

 

This isn't the first team to struggle a year after Hunter left. There's been an interesting trend in regard to teams Hunter has been on and the clubs' results in the season following his departure.

 

Los Angeles Angels Era (2008-2012)

The Angels were a playoff team the year before Hunter signed with them as a free agent but they were easily swept out of the first round by Boston. In Hunter's first LA season, the team improved from 94 wins to 100 wins, the only team in franchise history to reach the century mark. The Angeles lost to the Red Sox again in 2008 before making the ALCS in 2009 and losing to the Yankees. That was the last year Los Angeles won a playoff series. Hunter's last year in LA was 2012 when the club went 89-73 and finished five games out of first place. The season after he left was even worse as the club dropped to 78-84. The Angels finished 18 games out of first which was their worst mark since 2003.

 

Detroit Tigers Time (2013-2014)

Hunter moved on from Los Angeles and came back to the AL Central in 2013. The Tigers were coming off a World Series sweep the year prior to signing Hunter. Detroit jumped from 88 wins in 2012 to 93 wins with Hunter in the line-up. That club made it to the ALCS before falling to the Red Sox in six games. Detroit's 90 wins topped the AL Central again in 2014 but they were swept by Baltimore in the ALDS. The club took a big step backward during their first year without Hunter and finished 74-87 (20.5 games behind Kansas City).

 

Minnesota Twins Homecoming (2015)

Minnesota brought Hunter back last year on the heels of four straight 90-loss seasons. Some questioned the move since it didn't seem like the Twins were in a position to start winning now. The Twins proved plenty of doubters wrong as the team wasn't eliminated from playoff contention until the final weekend of the season. Minnesota also improved from 70 wins in 2014 to 83 wins. His play on the field wasn't leading to wins but his off the field leadership might have kept morale a little higher. It's hard to argue with results as the Twins have struggled to get to double-digits wins by the middle of May.

 

All three of Hunter's clubs have struggled in the year after he left. Los Angeles won 11 fewer games, Detroit fell by 16 games, and Minnesota seems destined for another 90 losses. Can one player make that much of a difference?

 

There's no way to quantify what a player's off-field contributions are to a team. A lot of this leadership happens behind closed doors and out of the earshot of local media members. From dance parties to firing guys up in the clubhouse, Hunter made his mark on this franchise but he certainly couldn't get the current squad into playoff contention by himself.

 

Hunter has been the heart and soul of this organization during his two Minnesota stints but there isn't a simple solution to fix the 2016 Twins because there are plenty of other things wrong with this team. Pitchers need to pitch better and batters need to break out of their slumps. Baseball is a game of adjustments and this club hasn't made the right adjustments yet.

 

No number of dance parties is going to fix those issues.

 

Click here to view the article

[Linus]

Mike Sixel your thoughts?

[DocBauer]

You know, it's funny to me when I read this because about a year, or so, ago I wrote a piece that was partially tongue-in-cheek but more than half serious, about the demise of the Twins winning teams after the departure of Hunter. Mostly, it detailed how his loss to the Angels in FA created a chain reaction to various moves made by the Twins to compensate and replace him in the lineup and field. Actually, patting myself on the back, some of my arguements held some validity. But it was never about his locker room presence.

 

I have a very hard time believing a lack of Hunter's presence is causing the downfal, of the 2016 Twins, mostly because the 2015 Twins, in truth, we're about a .500 team with the exception of the month of May. Still, who wouldn't take a .500 club at this point?

 

BUT, I do think your arguement does have some validity to it, whether it is a "Hunter" factor or not. I do believe the construction of a team is more than just pure physical talent and coaching. Sometimes, thereally is a chemistry and/or attitude factor than can make a difference. Sometimes it is a work ethic created to get guys to go the extra mile. Sometimes it's as simple as keeping guys loose game to game so they don't too wrapped up in W-L records and maintain an even keel approach.

 

I will neither exalt nor demean Hunter's presence on the 2015 team, nor his lack of presence on this year's team. But when you stop for a moment to examine the Twins WS teams and additional winning/playoff teams, there did seem to be a strong head man in charge, Kelly and Gardy, and guys on the team that had a sense of of bulldog, competitiveness and leadership in them. I'm just not sure this team has that right now.

 

I don't know if it's Molitor, the players themselves, or poor roster construction, but there seems to be an "it" factor missing that gives a competitive team an edge.

[theBOMisthebomb]

Bring Torii back as a coach.

[old nurse]

The anti-gestalt would be this team. Why is probably the unanswered question.

[Boom Boom]

Let's assume that a major reason this team is as bad as they are is that they lack leadership.

 

How come in the past 20 years the Twins have not developed or otherwise acquired a team leader not named Torii Hunter?

Edited May 17, 2016 by Boom Boom

[Seth Stohs]

1.) It's silly to assume that Hunter's presence on this team would make them even a .500 team right now.

 

2.) It's silly to assume that Hunter's presence on this team would not have a significant impact. 

[Mike Sixel]

I've said many times that I think leadership matters, but that it doesn't matter 4-10 games worth. If it did, Hunter and others would be much more wealthy and still employed.

 

I thought someone else had posted all the times Hunter had come and gone from teams, and that this wasn't really a trend, but I can't recall where I saw that.

 

I do think this team is lacking something in the culture. I'm not sure 1 person can fix that culture.....again, if he could, he'd be on a team someplace, and they'd have to pay him ginormous sums of money.

[gunnarthor]

I thought Hunter's best attributes were keeping the team even after losses and preventing guys from pressing.  I thought for a few weeks Sano really looked like he thought he needed to hit a home run.  And Rosario has been pressing all year.  Perhaps Hunter knew a better way to communicate with young guys that struggled than Molitor has - hell, I'm not sure Molitor really struggled like these guys have. But Hunter, who did struggle, might be better able to walk them through it.  Like Mike, I'm not sure what that's worth but I do think it was real.  

 

In any event, the players will eventually have to figure it out themselves. My guess is that eventually this team acquires Sano's swag but it might take longer than I thought.

[Thrylos]

It is not Hunter. It is the attitude that Hunter brought to this team.  It was obvious that this was why the Twins signed him last season and he actually did solve one of their biggest problems in 2014 (and before.)

 

This team needs a winning attitude.  Need someone(s) who hate loosing.  Hated to see Mauer smile and chitchat with Lions yesterday at first base when the score was 0-7.  Wish there was someone to say to Mauer to look at the score and pretend you care for once. (And I am using Mauer as an example.)

 

That's where the Twins' "leaders", including their manager, GM, president, and owner fail.  Some don't care about losing (Mauer, Dozier,) some are trying to find excuses about losing (Perkins.)   Nobody appears willing to address the problem.

 

It is not Hunter, per se.   This is an attitude.  And it comes from up high.   Pohlad and St Peter never look as mad as the average Twins' fans for this debacle.  And in my book, they should be madder.  

 

But they don't care.  About time that Pohlad sells to someone who cares. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by Thrylos

[Mike Sixel]

BS that they don't care about losing.

 

Also BS that you can't smile when losing. 

[HitInAPinch]

I don't know. 

 

I could say last years success was due to it being the 1st year in a LONG time without Ron Gardenhire leading the team. 

Or I could say Paul Molitor is more of a teacher than a leader. 

I could also say that the poor performances and spate injuries was due to a lack of preparation in Spring Training.

 

I think all this is circumstantial evidence, at best.

[HitInAPinch]

 

 

BS that they don't care about losing.

 

Also BS that you can't smile when losing. 

Couldn't agree more.

[Vanimal46]

I think there's something to say about not having the right type of leadership needed for this team, this season. However, Torii Hunter isn't the only former MLB player or current MLB player who's able to crack this code. 

[Mike Sixel]

I will say this........

 

I understand why people think this. They were terrible, Hunter came, they were good. Hunter left, now they are worse than terrible. Our brains are wired to think that there is causation there. But, those relationships in and of themselves are insufficient to show causation.

 

The other thing I'll say is that people vastly underestimate the role of luck in outcomes over 162 games......and that last year it is clear they had lots of good luck, and this year they have had bad play and bad luck (though it is mostly bad play).

 

If I had to guess, this is more about terrible team defense, utility guys in the lineup every day, and other issues much more than it is about culture. But, I do think there is a cultural issue. Not sitting there day to day, though? I have no idea if there is, or what it is.

[Vanimal46]

 

Let's assume that a major reason this team is as bad as they are is that they lack leadership.

How come in the past 20 years the Twins have not developed or otherwise acquired a team leader not named Torii Hunter?

Leadership isn't something that an organization can develop. Either you have it, or you don't. As far as acquiring a team leader, that's a different story. I couldn't tell you why they haven't done it the last 6-7 years...

[hybridbear]

 

This team needs a winning attitude.  Need someone(s) who hate loosing.  Hated to see Mauer smile and chitchat with Lions yesterday at first base when the score was 0-7.  Wish there was someone to say to Mauer to look at the score and pretend you care for once. (And I am using Mauer as an example.)

 

That's where the Twins' "leaders", including their manager, GM, president, and owner fail.  Some don't care about losing (Mauer, Dozier,) some are trying to find excuses about losing (Perkins.)   Nobody appears willing to address the problem.

This is an interesting comment. Before Sunday's Spanish broadcast Tyler Duffey was the pre-game interview. He commented about how in his previous start against the White Sox he had pitched pretty well, but in the end he gave up more runs than the White Sox pitchers and the Twins lost. He said that it doesn't matter how well he pitches, all that matters is getting the W at the end of the day. It seems like he has that attitude that you are looking for in the Twins players.

[leopoty]

I think Hunter did matter to this team. He elevated a mediocre team. You saw a locker room having fun and was loose. Leadership and chemistry among a team matters. How often did you see dance parties, karaoke, award ceremonies on social media. All those things were lead by Hunter. He may not be the only person in the MLB to elevate a team, but no one on this team took that position over.

[Pardon My Dinger]

Torii was a critical link between the vets and the kids. I've never been in the Twins locker room, so I can't be sure of the culture therein. But what I do know is if the young guys and the old guys don't get along, you could wind up being the Minnesota Wild. And nobody wants that. 

[Willihammer]

 

The other thing I'll say is that people vastly underestimate the role of luck in outcomes over 162 games......and that last year it is clear they had lots of good luck, and this year they have had bad play and bad luck (though it is mostly bad play).

To be clear, "luck" is shorthand for variations in outcomes that appear to be random. That doesn't necessarily mean they are random. It could mean that the causes of those variations aren't easily measured.

[Mike Sixel]

 

To be clear, "luck" is shorthand for variations in outcomes that appear to be random. That doesn't necessarily mean they are random. It could mean that the causes of those variations aren't easily measured.

 

Agreed, but there is luck. Timing of which pitchers you face, injuries to you and other teams, balls that are about 3 feet from an OF catching them......there is luck, imo, no matter how we think about it.

[DaveW]

Hunter and his poor performance both in the field and at the plate last year likely cost this team a playoff berth.

 

Not having Hunter isn't the reason why the Twins are playing poorly, having a poor GM, Front office and coaching staff are the main culprits.

[KGB]

 

 

 

Hunter and his poor performance both in the field and at the plate last year likely cost this team a playoff berth.

 

Not having Hunter isn't the reason why the Twins are playing poorly, having a poor GM, Front office and coaching staff are the main culprits.

According to the JR Graham forum, keeping him on the roster last year cost us the playoffs.

 

Hunter provided a value last year to the team and was important for the increase in wins, but his present alone would not make this years team a winning team.  Making the jump that losing Hunter is the sole or major reason for the decline is like making the jump that Mauers production drop is solely due to his concussion.  No doubt these things play a part, but making it the sole reason misses a lot of other valid explanations.

 

[DaveW]

 

According to the JR Graham forum, keeping him on the roster last year cost us the playoffs.

 

Hunter provided a value last year to the team and was important for the increase in wins, but his present alone would not make this years team a winning team.  Making the jump that losing Hunter is the sole or major reason for the decline is like making the jump that Mauers production drop is solely due to his concussion.  No doubt these things play a part, but making it the sole reason misses a lot of other valid explanations.

But Mauer's production more likely than not was due to his concussion.....

 

Hunter and the black hole that he represented in RF last year certainly cost the Twins wins. If they would have signed Nelson Cruz like some of us suggested....than I guarantee the Twins would have found themselves in the playoffs.

 

Dance parties are nice and all, but dance parties don't melt steel beams.

[BrandonB]

I find myself coming down the middle on the impact on Hunter's influence. I am a die-hard Twins fan but happen to  live in Kansas City. James Shields had a similar affect on the '14 Royals. Much like Hunter did last year with a mostly young team--he taught the guys it was "OK to still smile after losses," as someone put it above, as well as really celebrate the wins.

Shields left after the failed WS bid but the Royals had enough guys to keep the "juice" Shields brought to the clubhouse flowing into 2015. That's where the comparison ends.

To me, the Twins are 10-27 because they've done practically nothing well on-the-field. Their starters have been terrible, the front end and middle of their bullpen has been atrocious for roughly half of a decade and for the most part they've had AAA talent in the lineup, or they're getting AAA production from MLB talent, in roughly that same amount of time. Like some others have suggested, 2015 looks to be an anomaly that can't really be explained by anything other than luck. 

Unfortunately I don't have the time or the money (for the MLB package) to follow the team like I am sure most you guys do, so my last paragraph could be way off. Just seems like we've been waiting for 6 years now for a team that looks anything remotely like the team that won 94 games in 2010. Mostly we've been told to be patient on the prospects (Buxton, Sano, Berrios, et al) and I am still of the belief that they will all be quality MLB players for the long haul. From the outside looking in (sort of -- I don't get to actually watch any games, just see box scores and live trackers) it just seems that the production has failed to match the talent and to me that is a systemic problem for any sports franchise. Something that goes far beyond one players influence on the clubhouse or the product they're putting on the field for 162 a year. 

[KGB]

 

But Mauer's production more likely than not was due to his concussion.....

 

 

How do you figure that?  Are you making a correlation because you want to believe it and excluding the Hunter correlation because you don't want to believe it.  Just because more people want to believe in a correlation, doesn't make it a fact.  Remember the world was flat at one time

 

Wouldn't a more reasonable explanation for Mauer reduction in 2014 was his BABIP went back to his career normal?

[Shane Wahl]

Hunter won a few games early last season straight up with his bat.

That's the major difference.

[Mr. Brooks]

LENIII said on Barrerio yesterday that Ryan and Mollie have been waiting all season for someone inside the locker room to step up and be a leader and that they are kinda shocked that nobody in there has yet.

[Mike Sixel]

 

LENIII said on Barrerio yesterday that Ryan and Mollie have been waiting all season for someone inside the locker room to step up and be a leader and that they are kinda shocked that nobody in there has yet.

 

Who would that be?

 

Buxton, Rosario, Park, Polanco, Maestro, Berrios, Duffey, Sano? All brand new.....

 

The old guys that have never done it in their career?

 

Who were they expecting to do that? Who was going to tell Plouffe, or Mauer, or Ervin or Hughes how to be, and lead them, other than 1 of them?

[Vanimal46]

 

LENIII said on Barrerio yesterday that Ryan and Mollie have been waiting all season for someone inside the locker room to step up and be a leader and that they are kinda shocked that nobody in there has yet.

Wow, that is embarrassing. Kind of validates that leaders aren't developed, they either are, or aren't leaders. If someone needs to tell players like Mauer, Plouffe, or Dozier that they need to be a leader, they will never be one.