Moon Shot Baker

[old nurse]

I really can't imagine a scenario that has Baker pitching for the Twins in 2013.

Did you try mind altering substances?

All of the potential of Scott Baker will go elsewhere unless the Twins pick up the option. He may have been trying to pitch trough an injury. Concerning illness and injury, it would appear that many forget that many guys think if you forget about it long enough it will go away. Baker had hopes of his injury just going away if he ignored it. Pappa Gardy who is supposed to know better did not look out for him.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Baker won't be worth 9M. He won't get anything close to that in FA. Someone will give him a 3M base salary for next year and then a much nicer salary for 2 or 3 years. I'm not against the Twins doing that, but once that option is declined, I have a tough time believing that Baker is going to come back here. How often do players return to the team that declined their nice, pretty expensive option? And then add a medical staff that has a knack for misdiagnosing things...

[DPJ]

DPJ is colorful

You god damn racist!!!

[DaveW]

The problem with Baker heading into this season is both he and the Twins have every reason in the world not to shut him down for the season. I think they both handled the situation rather poorly, moreso the Twins with the bizarre front office comments. But when a player is heading into his walk year I imagine most will do anything to stay off the DL/surgery. It's the exact same thing that happened to Pavano, everyone could tell he was injured and had nothing left, but he tried to gut it out since it was his walk year as well.

 

Now Pavano will have to take a minor league deal with a team and Baker will be looking at a very low 1-2 mil guaranteed deal. I can't fault either for trying to gut it out as long as possible.

[CDog]

Read the quotes above from Thyrlos as well. There was no reason for the organization to say those things publicly and, generally, if a little gets out to the press it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg. I acknowledged Baker's fault in it too, but it doesn't change the way the Twins approached it. You can put your fingers in your ears and sing "la la la", but plenty of information has been put in this thread to back up the fact that the Twins were calling him out for his effort/toughness. If you choose not to accept the reasoning behind it, fine, but don't deny it happened. It did.

 

I get that it's your "bit" to question every assertion everyone makes - but here it is being backed up and you're still denying it. Makes it hard to swallow your skepticism when you're doing it just for the schtick and not because you actually want evidence.

Thank you for the instructions. Those quotes were read already--in this thread, when they first came out in spring training, and again when DPJ made the same bogus claims a few weeks ago. Although I can't say I have the same ability to fabricate what may or may not be in the "iceberg" that you just decided is there. There simply isn't anything there that you're claiming is there. Baker said over and over again that he was fine. First it was "just tendonitis" that he said he went through every spring. Then he came back and threw with the velocity of a high school pitcher a few times and said each time that he was fine and that he wasn't remotely concerned. Eventually Gardenhire and Ryan said if he's fine, he needed to show it. The quote you mention above says nothing about his effort or toughness. It's about his pace. Not sure how you link those unless you're just looking for something to create drama. One could even reasonably make the case they were annoyed by his willingness to keep going out there without admitting how hurt he was.

 

And it's an absolute lie that I question every assertion that everyone makes. I don't get how people can only have negative opinions, but opinions are just that. Actual facts have never been questioned by me. I DO have a tendency to get annoyed and point it out when people invent garbage. I'm not the only one, nor should I be.

[twinsnorth49]

I don't get how people can only have negative opinions.

Apparently it makes you a realist, while anyone who might offer a positive opinion is a naive fool.

[DPJ]

So the point is that everyone else is wrong and Cdog is right...got it.

[twinsnorth49]

So the point is that everyone else is wrong and Cdog is right...got it.

Nah, you think TR called Baker a pussy, Cdog thinks TR was just getting fed up with Baker playing softball when he kept saying he was fine and intimated if he was fine he should show it. I remember reading Tr's comments back in the spring and pretty much thinking the same thing as you. What is for certain is that it's a lot of presumptuous nonsense for anyone to think they know how Baker feels about Minnesota because of it.

[TheLeviathan]

Nah, you think TR called Baker a pussy, Cdog thinks TR was just getting fed up with Baker playing softball when he kept saying he was fine and intimated if he was fine he should show it. I remember reading Tr's comments back in the spring and pretty much thinking the same thing as you. What is for certain is that it's a lot of presumptuous nonsense for anyone to think they know how Baker feels about Minnesota because of it.

The point is that this was done to Slowey and Baker, but not Pavano and Capps. It's a typical refrain from this team to throw some players on the bus for just about anything and protect others no matter what.

 

The Twins did not have to say what they did about Baker publicly - they could have handled it the exact same way they did Pavano. The two situations are almost identical except that Baker did it in ST and Pavano did it when the games count. If you're going to mouth off frustrations to the media - then do it fairly. That's not too much to ask. And it's reasonable to think that it may frustrate Baker that he was singled out much like it did Slowey.

 

Disagreeing there is fine and understandable, pretending they didn't handle the Baker thing well is just dumb.

[TheLeviathan]

There simply isn't anything there that you're claiming is there.

Let me remake the claim - Baker was treated differently by the organization and called out unfairly in the press. His situation was treated differently than Pavano's when you could argue the same error was made but in a lower leverage situation. Baker said over and over again that he was fine, but so did Pavano. But no one questioned why he wasn't "letting it rip". You can take up the "whispers" with Kracinski - but he's more plugged in than you and he was making the "toughness" assertion on radio and implying it in print. It was done - sing "la la la" to yourself all day long but it's reality. You just look like a troll for denying it.

 

The unfairness of handling these two situations is not invented or made up. It's not as severe as what they did to Slowey, but it is unfair. You can argue Baker understands the unfairness because of his own errors on this issue - that's a valid point and I wouldn't take issue with it based on his own quotes in the paper - but what you're denying is just foolish. Trollish, quite frankly.

[diehardtwinsfan]

The point is that this was done to Slowey and Baker, but not Pavano and Capps. It's a typical refrain from this team to throw some players on the bus for just about anything and protect others no matter what.

 

 

And Neshek, Hardy, and Perkins to name a few more. There is a track record here.

[TheLeviathan]

And Neshek, Hardy, and Perkins to name a few more. There is a track record here.

yeah the Protected At All Costs vs. Under the Bus in No Time lists would be pretty lengthy. Working hard to deny this is just baffling to me - lots of clubs do this (Ozzy comes to mind) - but that doesn't excuse it as a stupid way of going about your business.

[DPJ]

And Neshek, Hardy, and Perkins to name a few more. There is a track record here.

Gardy praised Blackburn for pitching 90+ innings of crap baseball in the first half of 2010 even though he withheld an elbow injury from the staff. But there's "Gardy's guys" and everyone and if you're one of Gardy's guys he'll protect you all day. While the rest of called out constantly through the media.

[CDog]

Let me remake the claim - Baker was treated differently by the organization and called out unfairly in the press. His situation was treated differently than Pavano's when you could argue the same error was made but in a lower leverage situation. Baker said over and over again that he was fine, but so did Pavano. But no one questioned why he wasn't "letting it rip". You can take up the "whispers" with Kracinski - but he's more plugged in than you and he was making the "toughness" assertion on radio and implying it in print. It was done - sing "la la la" to yourself all day long but it's reality. You just look like a troll for denying it.

 

The unfairness of handling these two situations is not invented or made up. It's not as severe as what they did to Slowey, but it is unfair. You can argue Baker understands the unfairness because of his own errors on this issue - that's a valid point and I wouldn't take issue with it based on his own quotes in the paper - but what you're denying is just foolish. Trollish, quite frankly.

And you can keep making up things that I said all you want, but it doesn't make them true. You can keep bringing up situations that I haven't touched here, but that makes them your inventions and that's all. And you can call people names all you like, but that doesn't help the discussion or make them so. I would counter that THAT is rather trollish. Quite frankly.

 

The best you can do to come up with a mention of Baker's toughness or grit or whatever is a third hand claim of a whisper from between the lines. I haven't seen any quote where it actually happened, and you (nor anyone else) has provided an instance where it did. "I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine" responded to with "Well then why are you throwing 10 mph slower than in the past?" That's what happened. Everything else is you and others trying to create drama and add things that weren't said. Whether or not that was right or fair or anything else is your opinion and I've not made any claim about whether that opinion is reasonable or not. It's an opinion, so have at it.

 

As for your Pavano comparison, he was throwing 3 or 4 mph slower than his normal, not 10. So there's a difference, in that might be something he could pitch through. Also, there are those that have been on this very site claiming the Twins DID throw him under the bus (depsite there being no evidence of that, either).

[TheLeviathan]

As for your Pavano comparison, he was throwing 3 or 4 mph slower than his normal, not 10.

Yeah, hopeless. This is just absurd - made me chuckle though. You win, won't mess with your skepticism-guised trolling.

[CDog]

And Neshek, Hardy, and Perkins to name a few more. There is a track record here.

The issue with Perkins was whether or not he could be assigned to the minors as opposed to DL'ed as a major leaguer. I don't remember there ever being an issue with management claiming he wasn't hurt or wasn't tough enough. Was there? I DO recall him doing a similar thing where he didn't disclose an injury until well after the fact.

 

Also don't ever recall anyone questioning Hardy's injuries. Source?

 

Don't remember much of the Neshek situation. I thought the "controversy" over his finger/hand issue was as much from his end as management's. Again, don't remember that much. Was there ever a question that he was hurt when he was getting TJ surgery?

[CDog]

Yeah, hopeless. This is just absurd - made me chuckle though. You win, won't mess with your skepticism-guised trolling.

Once again...say it's absurd, add snotty little comment...but it's from actual data. So there's that.

[TheLeviathan]

---

Once again...say it's absurd, add snotty little comment...but it's from actual data. So there's that.

You're right, how silly of me not to realize there is a magical number between 4mph and 10mph at which point an organization is entitled to drag the issue into the press. Is it 6mph or 7 at which this threshold is hit?

[twinsnorth49]

The point is that this was done to Slowey and Baker, but not Pavano and Capps. It's a typical refrain from this team to throw some players on the bus for just about anything and protect others no matter what.

 

The Twins did not have to say what they did about Baker publicly - they could have handled it the exact same way they did Pavano. The two situations are almost identical except that Baker did it in ST and Pavano did it when the games count. If you're going to mouth off frustrations to the media - then do it fairly. That's not too much to ask. And it's reasonable to think that it may frustrate Baker that he was singled out much like it did Slowey.

 

Disagreeing there is fine and understandable, pretending they didn't handle the Baker thing well is just dumb.

Absolutely agree, it was poorly handled.

[TheLeviathan]

Absolutely agree, it was poorly handled.

Yeah, sorry if I gave you the wrong impression being snide. From everything you've said we appear to be pretty close to the same page about this team. The finger/dike analogy I completely agree with.

 

And found tastelessly amusing!

[Oxtung]

What does any of the last 2 pages of this thread have to do with the OP? Somehow a discussion about how much Baker should be offered turned into a pissing match about whether the Twins Organization throws players under the bus. While that may be worth discussing / looking into it deserves it's own thread; as Baker's contract does. The only relation I can see is in regards to Baker's desires to stay in MN and regardless what was said the only way to know that is to hear from Baker.