Moon Shot Baker

[twinscowboysbulls]

What are the Twins going to do with him this offseason? If memory serves me correct he has an option that we will obviously decline...What type of contract could he expect to receive to stay and rehab?

[snepp]

$1 million, plus incentives, with a team option for the following season at $8 million.

[Rosterman]

I suspect that, assuming he is about ready to begin rehab in spring training and has thrown some (he may not sign until February), Scott could get $3-5 million with a modest buyout ($250,000) and an option for 2014 in the $7-10 range. If he shows any signs of coming back mid-season, a team will take a much higher than $1 million gambit on him. Or he may pull a Roy Oswalt and not sign until he can actually show soemthing. But, again, someone will take a 2-year gamble on him that might surpass $10 million.

[IdahoPilgrim]

The question is not what kind of contract he could expect to receive to stay and rehab, but what kind of contract he would be willing to accept. Yes, he's injured, but he's coming off arguably his best season ever. Somebody will take a chance on him in free agency, knowing that the first year will be crud but also hoping (with good cause, I think) that once he's fully recovered from TJ he will provide several years of solid pitching, and will give give him a multi-year deal with several million up front. To expect him to sign a team-friendly contract is unrealistic.

[Boom Boom]

1-year deal with incentives up to 7 or 8 mil. No 2nd year option. I doubt he'll start the season on a roster.

[Oxtung]

I don't understand this push for an incentive laden contract. For the sake of discussion let's assume he has a $3M base with an additional $5M possible with incentives for 2013. The Twins are going to go back and study other players coming off of TJ surgery then decide what Baker is likely to earn. Let's say they believe he'll make ~$6M. They are going to budget between $6M and the full $8M for him. As such there will be no salary relief derived from an incentive heavy deal. The only advantage I can see is to the Pohlads who stand to earn more money by paying less salary if Baker doesn't live up to his expectations.

[jorgenswest]

For the Twins, they will have two choices.

 

1) Pick up his option

2) Let him go for no return

 

If he becomes a free agent, he will choose to leave the organization.

[DPJ]

Why would Baker want to come back to the organization that open called him a pussy throughout spring training?

[Boom Boom]

Why would Baker want to come back to the organization that open called him a pussy throughout spring training?

$9 million option.

[DPJ]

$9 million option.

If the money is the same I truly doubt MN would be high on his list to return to.

[Willihammer]

If the elbow is finally fixed then Baker is worth $9m

[CDog]

Why would Baker want to come back to the organization that open called him a pussy throughout spring training?

It's already been covered that that never happened. I guess sticking to your BS story shows some moxie, but other than that very little.

[CDog]

For the Twins, they will have two choices.

 

1) Pick up his option

2) Let him go for no return

 

If he becomes a free agent, he will choose to leave the organization.

That's stated as a fact. Is it one? Has he or his agent or anyone said this or is it just a guess?

[DPJ]

It's already been covered that that never happened. I guess sticking to your BS story shows some moxie, but other than that very little.

Jesus this place is the worst...how the hell do you deny it didn't happen? You're the only person who's made such a claim but refuse to back it up.

[CDog]

Jesus this place is the worst...how the hell do you deny it didn't happen? You're the only person who's made such a claim but refuse to back it up.

Yeah, the quote after quote after quote from actual news sources was a big time refusal. Sorry about that.

[Oxtung]

Jesus this place is the worst...how the hell do you deny it didn't happen? You're the only person who's made such a claim but refuse to back it up.

How do you prove that something didn't happen?

[Riverbrian]

I just did a google search with "Baker Twins Pussy".

 

The only thing that came back was a quote from DPJ on Twins Daily... A website for Shannon and Shauna Baker.

 

And a long list of porn sites.

 

Naturally, it'll be difficult to focus on the Twins for an afternoon at least... With these new web discoveries deserving my attention.

[CDog]

How do you prove that something didn't happen?

There's a quite long post from me in another thread with quote after quote after quote from the time in question that pretty completely cover it.

[TheLeviathan]

DPJ is colorful, but this is what he is referring to:

 

• As has too often been the case recently Twins management subtlety cast some doubt on the legitimacy of Scott Baker's elbow injury before a second opinion from outside the organization led to Tommy John surgery. In speaking to the local media following surgery Baker addressed what Jon Krawcynski of the Associated Press described as "whispers both inside and outside Target Field":

I knew I wasn't crazy. I knew there was some speculation that maybe I was babying it or taking it easy, but good grief. I did everything I possibly could to get better and to try to pitch with it. But that just wasn't going to happen.

 

When an injured player has to defend himself amid speculation that his injury isn't as serious as he claims and that speculation is fueled at least in part by the team that's obviously not a good situation. Toss in the ongoing questions about the competency of the Twins' medical staff and it gets even worse. On the other hand, Baker also admitted injured pitchers "are not always completely forthright with the staff" and made it clear that he doesn't hold a grudge.

 

There was some talk in ST about Baker not being "tough" rather than it being an injury. So it did happen, just not to the degree DPJ is suggesting. But enough, as demonstrated here, to catch Baker's attention. Although in other articles he also suggests no hard feelings, that he's to blame as well, and that he hopes to stay here.

[TheLeviathan]

Personally, I'd like to see them extend an offer to Baker. Something along the lines of 3M for next year, 6M for the following year, and a team option at 8M for year three. It's minimal risk for a guy that has arguably been a #2 caliber starter for this team in recent seasons. He's just had significant injury issues, but 3/17 is a pretty minimal investment for the reward.

 

Though I have serious questions about him accepting something like this, it's just what I would offer initially.

[Thrylos]

For the record: From this past Spring Training (and while Baker was pitching with an undiagnosed UCL tear) :

 

Source here:

 

"Our starting pitcher put us in a hole today. He got his work in, yes, but we chased the ball all over the field and spent eight hours [out there] in the first three innings.

"That ain't good enough. He's got to pick up the pace and get going. He says his arm's fine and everything's good, then let's go. Get on the ball, throw the ball ... that's all I want to see from here on out.

"Everybody gets put to sleep and then we play a [poor] ballgame. Anything else?"

 

 

Funny thing, I was in that game. And even from the stands you could see that the guy was in pain and grimacing with every pitch. This shot is from that game:

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7139/7019394157_9af7555974_o.jpg

 

 

And afterwards right before his one and only rehab start at Fort Myers, Ryan was saying that he was frustrated that Baker has not "let it rip". Then he finally ripped it all the way.

 

If TR and RG need to point any fingers towards anyone in the Baker situation, that is the miserable training and medical staff of the Twins (which supposedly the Executive of the Millennium was going to fix by now...)

 

They are not going to pick his option up; that would be inane. He needs more time than next season to return to form. And if he is a free agent, I suspect that he will not want to return and play for the Twins for less, unless there is some staff changes...

[IdahoPilgrim]

Thank you for that quote, Thrylos. It confirmed something I remembered (and I did hear that interview when Gardy gave it), that Baker himself said he was fine. I remember Baker downplaying his decreased velocity a couple of times during ST and saying it was nothing, that it would come back up. We don't know what he was telling the medical staff and saying behind the scenes, but at least publicly Baker denied that he was injured until after he had been shut down. Then you began to hear the quotes about not feeling right and knowing something was wrong. Only then.

[CDog]

DPJ is colorful, but this is what he is referring to:

 

 

 

There was some talk in ST about Baker not being "tough" rather than it being an injury. So it did happen, just not to the degree DPJ is suggesting. But enough, as demonstrated here, to catch Baker's attention. Although in other articles he also suggests no hard feelings, that he's to blame as well, and that he hopes to stay here.

And time and again after Baker threw 8-10 mph below his norm, he said he was fine--once saying "I'm not remotely concerned about velocity" (or very, very close to that...I'm not going to go back and find it AGAIN since it's already quoted on this site and on several if not all sources covering the Twins in Spring Training), and another time saying essentially that he would/could throw harder in actual game situations (as opposed to spring training games, not even bullpens) when he needed to and eventually the response from the organization was "if you're fine, then show it." I'm slow to play the "if" game, but I feel fairly confident that had the Twins NOT said that or its equivalent that the same folks would be talking from the other side of their mouth about how the Twins babied and coddled another player and let him call the shots. Some people thrive on complaining.

[TheLeviathan]

Read the quotes above from Thyrlos as well. There was no reason for the organization to say those things publicly and, generally, if a little gets out to the press it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg. I acknowledged Baker's fault in it too, but it doesn't change the way the Twins approached it. You can put your fingers in your ears and sing "la la la", but plenty of information has been put in this thread to back up the fact that the Twins were calling him out for his effort/toughness. If you choose not to accept the reasoning behind it, fine, but don't deny it happened. It did.

 

I get that it's your "bit" to question every assertion everyone makes - but here it is being backed up and you're still denying it. Makes it hard to swallow your skepticism when you're doing it just for the schtick and not because you actually want evidence.

[old nurse]

The brass can't win on this one. Say something vague or diplomatic about Baker in ST and they would be crucified for not having any knowledge of their pitcher. Report what Baker said to them and be crucified. Snide comments from members of this board would only serve as a reminder that there was no good to come of repeating what the players tell the manager, coaches and medical staff. Same holds true for Pavano this year. He denied being injured even though his pitching said something was wrong.

[TheLeviathan]

When Pavano did the same things.....did Ryan and Gardy talk about him the same way they did Baker? Or did they characterize that as typical of a gutsy, battling veteran?

 

The organization could have communicated their concerns much more professionally than they did. It's not about talking vs. not talking about it. It's about doing so without throwing the player under the bus. Which didn't happen in Baker's case, but (surprise!) did happen with Pavano.

[Thrylos]

When Pavano did the same things.....did Ryan and Gardy talk about him the same way they did Baker? Or did they characterize that as typical of a gutsy, battling veteran?

 

The organization could have communicated their concerns much more professionally than they did. It's not about talking vs. not talking about it. It's about doing so without throwing the player under the bus. Which didn't happen in Baker's case, but (surprise!) did happen with Pavano.

+1

 

And btw, nobody knows anything about Pavano and Gardy is not whining about him and there are no health reports. Add "Cappie" to the list too. But that silence about Pavano is really telling. I think that both Pavano and Capps pitched their last games as Twins...

[jorgenswest]

If the Twins believe in Baker, they need to show it by picking up the option. If he will be healthy by June, he will be an asset and in demand at the trade deadline. This comes down to the Twins medical team assessing his progress and readiness for 2013.

[Brock Beauchamp]

If the Twins believe in Baker, they need to show it by picking up the option.

No way. You don't pick up $9m options on pitchers returning from surgery. No other team is going to offer him even one-third that much money guaranteed.

[Guest USAFChief]

I really can't imagine a scenario that has Baker pitching for the Twins in 2013.