Awesome brawl at Texas

[biggentleben]

 

Have you ever been to a hockey game?

 

Yes, but that has nothing to do with this discussion whatsoever. Hockey players have pads on that can protect them from body blows delivered by opponents. It's the difference in me facing a 300 pound defensive lineman and facing a 90 mile per hour fastball. I'll always be more comfortable against the lineman because I'm more protected by the tools of the sport.

[biggentleben]

 

No, I got that.  But have you seen fans at football and hockey fights?  It's pretty common.  Honestly, unless the crowd is chanting something racist (like some soccer fans have) or throwing batteries (hello, Philly!), I think they can do what they want.  Cheering for your team during a baseball brawl isn't that big of a deal. Frankly, I'm much more bothered by fans who do tomahawk chops at Atlanta games or Florida St games (I say this with no intent to label you, I know you are a Braves fan but you are also a darn good poster and bring lots of interesting things to TD).  

 

Two anti-Braves references in the discussion...yeah, not personal directive at all. Good try at a reasonable discourse, though.

[gunnarthor]

For more enjoyment, you should check out the Rangers and Blue Jays respective SN websites.  Surprisingly, they don't seem to agree on much.  

[biggentleben]

 

That bat flip in the playoffs last year is going to stick in the Ranger's players and fans heads for life! Showboating to that extreme is a relatively recent phenomenon that is trending upwards in frequency, and we should be expecting these types of fights more in the future. 

 

If Texas was the home team in that playoff game, the fight would have already taken place at that game. And yes, I would not have put it past Bautista to do that bat flip in front of the Rangers fans.

 

We've hacked out the showboating thing already. It wasn't. I'm not going into a long argument over that AGAIN.

[DaveW]

 

Not disagreeing with you. But my point was that a large portion of hockey fans watch/attend games just to see the fights. 

Well those fans are going to be left dissapointed more times than not, fights only occur in about 15% of games these days.

[biggentleben]

 

The curious thing about Joey Bats is that he gets all defensive if asked about PED's.  I think it's fair to question it.  I think he should expect the questions.

 

After hitting only 59 home runs in his first six seasons, over the course of 575 games and 2,038 plate appearances, Bautista exploded in 2010, hitting 54 home runs with 124 RBI and 109 runs while taking 100 walks and leading the AL with 351 total bases.  Not only were the numbers all career highs, but many of Bautista's numbers were better than the combined totals of any two previous seasons combined.

 

Yikes!  I don't care who the player is, you bust out like that and people are going to ask questions.

 

Personally, I've thought that Toronto was a hotbed for PEDs for years...never mind baseball.  When Anthony Galea (Sports medicine Dr. for Arod and Tiger Woods) got caught coming from Toronto into the US with HGH...and this wasn't his first run in involving illegal PEDs...it set off a red flag.  Chris Colabello was busted earlier this year for steroids.

 

I know.  I'm off topic.  Not trying to fire up a whole debate.  Just my 2 pennies on Joey Bats.

 

For ****'s Sakes.

 

Just my 2 pennies.

[gunnarthor]

 

Two anti-Braves references in the discussion...yeah, not personal directive at all. Good try at a reasonable discourse, though.

Oh, come now.  The Gant/Hrbek thing is always fun to bring up - and relevant since the crowd was pretty ok with it.

 

The tomahawk chop is an ugly thing that - like Chief Wahoo - should be scrapped.  If you want to talk about disrespectful fans, that's pretty much fair game.  Like I said, fans should be able to do most things - boo, cheer, yell - but the line should be drawn at actual physical interference (batteries, the Red Sox idiot who touched Shieffield, running ono the field) and racist chants (mostly a problem in European soccer but also a bit of a problem in your neck of the woods).  If you think that's personal, I'm honestly sorry.  

[biggentleben]

I'm going to a game this summer with my wife's two cousins that are not yet teens. They're overjoyed to be sitting right behind home plate with me because they have the disease of baseball and want to watch a game for what I'm going to be looking for from that vantage point. When we discuss baseball, we discuss the tremendous athleticism involved in plays, the incredible pitching involved every day, and the unbelievable difficulty of hitting a ball the way some guys do with such ease. We've never once discussed a fight, HBP, or outburst on the field without a level of sadness involved.

 

What irked me the most was that multiple times that the camera had to pan away from children, preteen and one that looked to be around 6-7, who were all making gestures toward players or yelling things such that the camera could no longer focus on that child. What are you teaching a child when you attend a game if that is considered acceptable behavior? It's a moment to discuss how despicable the behavior of the players were and shake your head, regardless of your team loyalty.

 

Part of that is being able to have a healthy level of fandom. When an action on the field gets you so worked up that you behave in such a manner, it's time to perhaps take time away from the game as the relationship of your fandom has become unhealthy. I was one of the "lucky" people who was splattered with items intended for Chuck Knoblauch in the Metrodome. It was the first baseball game ever attended by a foreign student that was part of our group of college students that went to that game. He was struck in the back of the neck by a baseball intended for the playing field, thrown from the second level. Our whole group was struck by hot dogs and other food items being thrown toward the field. All over a guy who ended up being the catalyst for the most successful time of the team's last 20 years through the return his trade brought to the Twins.

 

It's a disappointing example again of how our country can get this fired up over a baseball team, but can't spend 10 minutes to research candidates enough to cast an educated ballot one time yearly and participate in our governing process.

[gocgo]

 

Did I miss a positive test from Bautista over the last 6 years? I'd tread lightly when it comes to accusing players of that. There's already enough witch hunting in the MLB.. 

I'm not accusing.  I am questioning and I am not naive enough to think that someone suddenly finds their swing after 6 years in the majors and over 2000 at bats with only 59 home runs.  Positive test?  Arod never tested positive either.

[biggentleben]

 

I'm not accusing.  I am questioning and I am not naive enough to think that someone suddenly finds their swing after 6 years in the majors and over 2000 at bats with only 59 home runs.  Positive test?  Arod never tested positive either.

 

No, he didn't. The stuff that Biogenesis was creating was technically legal in the CBA, so he would not have failed a test.

 

Even making that comment is accusing. There is so much that goes into making contact as a hitter or throwing a pitch as a pitcher. Toronto has done nearly the same thing with hitting approach with a half dozen hitters now, like Edwin Encarnacion as well. Watch Jesus Montero right now being integrated into that type of approach as well. David Ortiz had his swing drastically changed by the Boston coaches. Has he done other things? Tests say yes. However, his prolonged success in the era of testing says that his sustained success has more to do with his talent than any drug he may be taking.

 

Thanks for throwing this into the discussion, though. I always enjoy adding PEDs into each and every conversation about players in the game.

[DaveW]

A lot of men's power in general doesn't peak until their very late 20's and into their 30's. Additionally as many other posters have pointed out, he completely changed his swing 100%

Also if it was as simple as "take some PED's and you will go from a 10 HR to a 50 HR guy!" then why wouldn't every late 20's MLB player who were struggling to get playing time, take the PED's hit the 50 HR then get the 100+ million contract?

 

The "maybe he used PED's" excuse is lazy and inflammatory.

[Hrbowski]

A few thoughts:

 

#1) If Bautista wanted to send a message about the HBP like he claims, he should have charged the mound, not gone after a player who had nothing to do with it besides score an unusual run during the 2015 postseason.

 

#2) Bautista didn't charge the mound because he was afraid of Matt Bush, so he picked the only guy in the Rangers lineup who was smaller than himself to pick on.

 

#3) The only reason Odor will get a hefty suspension is because MLB only cares about the stars. Remember Jason LaRue? Cueto only got a seven game suspension for ending his career.

 

#4) I doubt that Bush intentionally threw at Bautista, as he wasn't part of last year's postseason.

 

#5) Bautista and Odor both have a history of being jerks, but people are unfairly calling it a sucker punch. Bautista was going to punch Odor first.

 

#6) What was missed is that Odor also took care of Donaldson, and that Pillar was not ejected.

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

 Just my 2 pennies on Joey Bats.

Well, I sure read that wrong. 

[Vanimal46]

 

No, he didn't. The stuff that Biogenesis was creating was technically legal in the CBA, so he would not have failed a test.

 

Even making that comment is accusing. There is so much that goes into making contact as a hitter or throwing a pitch as a pitcher. Toronto has done nearly the same thing with hitting approach with a half dozen hitters now, like Edwin Encarnacion as well. Watch Jesus Montero right now being integrated into that type of approach as well. David Ortiz had his swing drastically changed by the Boston coaches. Has he done other things? Tests say yes. However, his prolonged success in the era of testing says that his sustained success has more to do with his talent than any drug he may be taking.

 

Thanks for throwing this into the discussion, though. I always enjoy adding PEDs into each and every conversation about players in the game.

Thank you. Couldn't have responded better myself. There's nothing that irritates me more in baseball discussions than fans accusing players of taking PED's without any sort of evidence. 

[DaveW]

 

A few thoughts:

 

#1) If Bautista wanted to send a message about the HBP like he claims, he should have charged the mound, not gone after a player who had nothing to do with it besides score an unusual run during the 2015 postseason.

 

#2) Bautista didn't charge the mound because he was afraid of Matt Bush, so he picked the only guy in the Rangers lineup who was smaller than himself to pick on.

 

#3) The only reason Odor will get a hefty suspension is because MLB only cares about the stars. Remember Jason LaRue? Cueto only got a seven game suspension for ending his career.

 

#4) I doubt that Bush intentionally threw at Bautista, as he wasn't part of last year's postseason.

 

#5) Bautista and Odor both have a history of being jerks, but people are unfairly calling it a sucker punch. Bautista was going to punch Odor first.

 

#6) What was missed is that Odor also took care of Donaldson, and that Pillar was not ejected.

1 and 2.) Give me a break, Bautista didn't charge the mound etc because he isn't a goon and knows his team needs him (if he charges the mound he gets tossed/suspended) He wasn't looking to fight anyone, he had a hard slide into 2nd base, but it wasn't dirty.  Also your premise about Bautista being afraid of Bush is hilarious, Joey Bats has 3 inches and 25 pounds on Bush.

 

3.) Again, give me a break, the reason why Odor is going to get a hefty suspension is because he started a fight and sucker punched a player.

 

4.) Once again, give me a break. If you think that is just coincidence I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

 

5.) When has JoeyBats been a jerk? Other than the "bat toss" which is silly anyways he hasn't been a jerk. Odor is known as a dirty player and had one of the dirtiest slides baseball has seen since Ty Cobb last season. Odor started the fight, he pushed Bautista immediately and punched him. Bautista didn't start the fight, push him first or punch him first.

 

6.) So?

[gunnarthor]

 

Thank you. Couldn't have responded better myself. There's nothing that irritates me more in baseball discussions than fans accusing players of taking PED's without any sort of evidence. 

In fairness, he did offer evidence.  Maybe it wasn't the evidence you wanted (a failed drug test) but a remarkable change in Joey Bats game at a later age than most is evidence.  Obviously, it's not conclusive evidence but it's one piece.  

 

One of the things that irked me is the "no evidence" card being played when it really means "no useable failed drug test".  We heard it when Braun circumvented his first positive test.  We hear it when it's mentioned of players whose test results were leaked.  But we're way off topic.

[gocgo]

OK, back to the topic on hand with apologies for getting off topic.  Anyone think that Odor's throw to first went so wild due to him possibly trying to hit the incoming runner?  Even if it nicks the incoming runner, it's an automatic out.  I don't think he's above doing that as he isn't really known as a nice guy.  Not sure if that is taught or condoned in MLB circles.

[DaveW]

 

OK, back to the topic on hand with apologies for getting off topic.  Anyone think that Odor's throw to first when so wild due to him possibly trying to hit the incoming runner?  Even if it nicks the incoming runner, it's an automatic out.  I don't think he's above doing that as he isn't really known as a nice guy.  Not sure if that is taught or condoned in MLB circles.

He definitely was throwing it directly at JoeyBatts face.

[gunnarthor]

 

OK, back to the topic on hand with apologies for getting off topic.  Anyone think that Odor's throw to first went so wild due to him possibly trying to hit the incoming runner?  Even if it nicks the incoming runner, it's an automatic out.  I don't think he's above doing that as he isn't really known as a nice guy.  Not sure if that is taught or condoned in MLB circles.

When I saw it, I thought for sure he was throwing it low to get the runner down (Ripkin was great at that).  I'm not sure I saw quite the malice intent of throwing AT him but definitely throwing it to make him go down.  

 

But there was no way the two MI didn't know that Bautista was going to be coming in hard.  The throw by Beltre should have been to the back of the bag.  It was pretty risky where it was.  

[TheLeviathan]

A few thoughts:

 

#1) If Bautista wanted to send a message about the HBP like he claims, he should have charged the mound, not gone after a player who had nothing to do with it besides score an unusual run during the 2015 postseason.

 

#2) Bautista didn't charge the mound because he was afraid of Matt Bush, so he picked the only guy in the Rangers lineup who was smaller than himself to pick on.

 

#3) The only reason Odor will get a hefty suspension is because MLB only cares about the stars. Remember Jason LaRue? Cueto only got a seven game suspension for ending his career.

 

#4) I doubt that Bush intentionally threw at Bautista, as he wasn't part of last year's postseason.

 

#5) Bautista and Odor both have a history of being jerks, but people are unfairly calling it a sucker punch. Bautista was going to punch Odor first.

 

#6) What was missed is that Odor also took care of Donaldson, and that Pillar was not ejected.

1). Baseballs unwritten rules are entrenched in the idea of retaliation happening as a team. It need not be direct to the infractions player. He was absolutely using the slide as retaliation.

 

4) he was likely trying to win favor in the locker room, he absolutely did it on purpose. C'mon.

[gocgo]

 

He definitely was throwing it directly at JoeyBatts face.

I've watched it at least a dozen times and it sure looks like he drops his arm angle pretty low and the result of the throw was not at all close to first base.

 

In the end, any guesses on the fallout?

 

I'm not sure Bautista gets more than a game if anything.  I'll guess 4 for Odor which will get appealed. I would guess anyone else doing any aggression on the field gets a game or two depending on if they threw a punch.

 

So, here's another angle...if batters can flip bats to celebrate a home run, etc., what's the equivalent for a pitcher.  I remember guys blowing on their index finger like a gun after a K.  I think Eck used to celebrate after a K.  Goose Gossage used to just give an icy stare.

[gunnarthor]

 

I've watched it at least a dozen times and it sure looks like he drops his arm angle pretty low and the result of the throw was not at all close to first base.

 

In the end, any guesses on the fallout?

 

5 game for Odor.  4 for Pillar (apparently, he threw some as well), 2 for the Blue Jays manager b/c he had already been kicked out.  4 for Bush and Chavez.  1 for Bautista.

[biggentleben]

 

I've watched it at least a dozen times and it sure looks like he drops his arm angle pretty low and the result of the throw was not at all close to first base.

 

In the end, any guesses on the fallout?

 

I'm not sure Bautista gets more than a game if anything.  I'll guess 4 for Odor which will get appealed. I would guess anyone else doing any aggression on the field gets a game or two depending on if they threw a punch.

 

So, here's another angle...if batters can flip bats to celebrate a home run, etc., what's the equivalent for a pitcher.  I remember guys blowing on their index finger like a gun after a K.  I think Eck used to celebrate after a K.  Goose Gossage used to just give an icy stare.

 

Fernando Rodney shoots an arrow after every save. There are a number that still celebrate on the mound.

[Mr. Brooks]

I have to agree with Ben and Levi on this one.

If the Twins ever behave this way at a game I bring my kids to, it will be the last time they ever get a penny from me, and all of our Twins gear and merchandise will be going in the trash can as soon as we get home.

If I wanted to bring my kids to WWE, I would.

[Mr. Brooks]

Fernando Rodney shoots an arrow after every save. There are a number that still celebrate on the mound.

Yep, and Perkins does the fist pump on the mound. Yet that same Perkins was on the radio calling out that kid for Cleveland last year.

What a hypocrite.

[gunnarthor]

Jason Turbow - author of the baseball codes - with his views on the fracas - https://thebaseballcodes.com/2016/05/16/does-anybody-even-know-what-baseballs-unwritten-rules-are-anymore/

 

Basically, while Baustista's slide was against the current rules, it was pretty clean by the unwritten rules - spikes down. We've seen that slide a million times.

 

[biggentleben]

 

Yep, and Perkins does the fist pump on the mound. Yet that same Perkins was on the radio calling out that kid for Cleveland last year.
What a hypocrite.

 

I won't rip on a guy for enjoying the moment and celebrating. I used to slap my glove after a strike out on the mound. I didn't even know I did it until someone pointed it out. There's a point where it's celebration and another where it's pre-meditated showmanship. 

[Vanimal46]

 

Fernando Rodney shoots an arrow after every save. There are a number that still celebrate on the mound.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1062203/RossHelmet.gif.opt_medium.gif

 

 

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/chad-qualls-celebration-fail.gif

[Squirrel]

 

You assume that Odor punched Bautista because of his bat flip last season.  I don't think that it was it.  Ancient History.

 

I think that Odor was reacting to Bautista's dirty slide that could had broken his leg.  Odor was provoked and Bautista threatened his physical safety first.  

While I don't disagree about the slide, I still don't agree about the punch. Or brawling in general. Or intentionally hitting people with a ball. Just. No. Yes, a dirty slide like that could've taken him out of the game all season, but so could an ill-timed, ill-placed punch or pitch. For what? To prove you're right and the other one is wrong? Not in my book.

[ScrapTheNickname]

 

No I think that when one guy tried to break the other's leg with a dirty slide, he got punched on the face by his intended victim.

Usually rules apply. The slide was "dirty" according to 6-week old rules. Therefore there should have been an automatic double-play, I believe. Punches, no.