Article: Big Trades Impact Twins

[John Bonnes]

You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?830-Big-Trades-Impact-Twins

[Brock Beauchamp]

Teams are giving up more than I expected for rental players. I thought the lack of compensation picks for traded players would negatively impact the market but that doesn't seem to be the case. A good sign for the Twins.

 

And damn, Ichiro looks old in that photo.

[Fanatic Jack]

Don't worry the Twins will find a way to screw up somehow. I bet they give Liriano away for nothing and hold on to Span. I guess Ryan believes these guys are superstars or something. The only real trade chip is Josh Willingham and for some stupid reason Ryan is refusing to trade him. Willingham has a history of being injured and is having a career year. This is clearly the best time to trade him at 33.

[twinswon1991]

Ryan needs to trade Liriano before his next start. I think the risk is just too high that Frankie poops the bed Sunday and has little trade value. Pitt Tex LAA and LAD should be called and take the best offer.

[diehardtwinsfan]

this is certainly encouraging... would be nice to trade Liriano for a Randall Delgado type pitcher and then trade Span for another starter plus a high ceiling A ball kid who is also (hopefully) a pitcher.

[twinswon1991]

Don't worry the Twins will find a way to screw up somehow. I bet they give Liriano away for nothing and hold on to Span. I guess Ryan believes these guys are superstars or something. The only real trade chip is Josh Willingham and for some stupid reason Ryan is refusing to trade him. Willingham has a history of being injured and is having a career year. This is clearly the best time to trade him at 33.

If teams are willing to give up high upside pitching prospects for Willingham and Ryan turns it down he has failed again. How will the Twins become competitive again eithout trading high on assets like Willy for pithing? We know that draft/develop is not an org strength snd I dont see the Polads upping payroll anytime soon.

[savvyspy]

If teams are willing to give up high upside pitching prospects for Willingham and Ryan turns it down he has failed again. How will the Twins become competitive again eithout trading high on assets like Willy for pithing? We know that draft/develop is not an org strength snd I dont see the Polads upping payroll anytime soon.

What is this organizations strength????

[DaveW]

We know that draft/develop is not an org strength snd I dont see the Polads upping payroll anytime soon.

Yeah that group of Cuddyer, Mauer, Morneau, Kubel and Span that the Twins drafted and developed sure were crappy!

[DPJ]

Yeah that group of Cuddyer, Mauer, Morneau, Kubel and Span that the Twins drafted and developed sure were crappy!

All drafted before over 10 years ago...try again.

[DaveW]

All drafted before over 10 years ago...try again.

Guys like Perkins and Plouffe have both been nice draft picks Revere looks like he can contribute in the majors, Ramos turned into a nice player as did Garza, Loshe and others.

 

Also Arica, Hicks, Rosario, Buxton, Gibson and Benson are all within a year or two from potentially being impact players in the bigs.

 

It's not as big of a wasteland as people make it out to be.

 

IMO what killed them more than anything else was getting nothing but garbage for Santana, how nice would it have been if we would have taken any of the other rumored packages out there? We should have gotten at least one very good major leaguer (all-star) and one or two others that eventually would contribute.

 

All we got were a 4th OF, a AAAA pitcher (humber) and a couple AAA relief pitchers. Ouch.

[Boom Boom]

Yeah that group of Cuddyer, Mauer, Morneau, Kubel and Span that the Twins drafted and developed sure were crappy!

Not many pitchers in that bunch.

[DaveW]

Not many pitchers in that bunch.

Garza, Radke and they developed guys like Santana and Liriano. That "bunch" won 6 titles in 9 years.

[DPJ]

Guys like Perkins and Plouffe have both been nice draft picks Revere looks like he can contribute in the majors, Ramos turned into a nice player as did Garza, Loshe and others.

 

Also Arica, Hicks, Rosario, Buxton, Gibson and Benson are all within a year or two from potentially being impact players in the bigs.

 

It's not as big of a wasteland as people make it out to be.

So relief pitcher in Perkins, Ploufee who's done nothing in his career outside of an insane June/July. Loshe hasn't been in the organization for years, Revere is still living off a hot May and has such a limited ceiling even if he makes it.

 

As for the kids in the minors, let me know when they're up and contributing.

[Boom Boom]

Garza, Radke and they developed guys like Santana and Liriano. That "bunch" won 6 titles in 9 years.

Radke was drafted in 1991, which is a long time ago.

 

Garza pitched all of 133 innings for the Twins.

 

Santana and Liriano both came to the Twins in trades, which you can give the scouts credit for, but they were major league ready when the Twins got them.

[Mike Sixel]

The issue is the gap between the veterans of the early 2000s, and today.

 

Not one legit starting pitcher has come up since Garza/Baker. Most of the relievers are from outside the system. No SS or 2B has come up in years. We don't know if a 3B has come up for more than a month or year in over a decade.

 

This year, they added Plouffe, that's pretty much it.*

Last year they added Revere (who while a nice player, isn't a very good/great player)

The year before, um, who did they add?

The year before, um, who did they add?

 

That's the issue. The gap.

 

If you won't sign FAs, you need to bring up contributors (plural) every year.

 

*in this list, I'm probably missing a relief pitcher or three

[DPJ]

Santana and Liriano both came to the Twins in trades, which you can give the scouts credit for, but they were major league ready when the Twins got them.

Not really.

[Mike Sixel]

Agreed, neither Santana nor Liriano were starters when they got here day 1.

[DaveW]

Radke was drafted in 1991, which is a long time ago.

 

Garza pitched all of 133 innings for the Twins.

 

Santana and Liriano both came to the Twins in trades, which you can give the scouts credit for, but they were major league ready when the Twins got them.

Yeah, but in those 133 innings he pitched well, just like he has the rest of his career! I forgot pitchers like Baker and even Blackburn had a couple nice years.

 

Also Liriano and Santana were NOT major league ready when the Twins got them. The whole reason they got Santana in the rule 5 draft is because the team that gave him up didn't think he was major league ready. He had only pitched as high as low A ball when they got him and he was 20 years old. The Twins did amazing with their development of Santana.

 

Ditto with Liriano, he was 19 when the Twins got him and had all of one inning pitched above low A ball.

[DPJ]

The bottom line is the Twins haven't done well at delveloping pitchers and position players over the last decade. Hell if they would have they wouldn't have to give 2 year deals to 38 year old infielders or have a rotation with a bunch of no-name AAAA scrubs.

[Mike Sixel]

The bottom line is the Twins haven't done well at delveloping pitchers and position players over the last decade. Hell if they would have they wouldn't have to give 2 year deals to 38 year old infielders or have a rotation with a bunch of no-name AAAA scrubs.

This.

[Shane Wahl]

Nice article, bleh on the comments . . . good god.

[Winston Smith]

A couple wins we can get back into this thing! Isn't that the goal to be in the thing? Or is the goal to field a team that has a chance to win a playoff series or two?

We are now well over a year and a half of being the worst team in the AL record wise. It is time to admit that we lack talent and the players we have are not doing the job (manager and coaches are without fault). But if you want to keep telling yourself they are only a couple wins away, good luck next year and beyond!

[jimbo92107]

IMO what killed them more than anything else was getting nothing but garbage for Santana, how nice would it have been if we would have taken any of the other rumored packages out there? We should have gotten at least one very good major leaguer (all-star) and one or two others that eventually would contribute.

 

All we got were a 4th OF, a AAAA pitcher (humber) and a couple AAA relief pitchers. Ouch.

Man, is that true. I don't know why it keeps happening, but the Twins will trade a star player for a bunch of average prospects, somehow thinking that a large number of place fillers equals a difference maker. It's like saying ten phone books equals one great novel.

[Seth Stohs]

Santana and Liriano both came to the Twins in trades, which you can give the scouts credit for, but they were major league ready when the Twins got them.

 

Neither had pitched above A ball when the Twins acquired them. Without looking, they may not have pitched above Low A.

[jimbo92107]

The whole reason they got Santana in the rule 5 draft is because the team that gave him up didn't think he was major league ready. He had only pitched as high as low A ball when they got him and he was 20 years old. The Twins did amazing with their development of Santana.

A little gem from Wikipedia:

 

"In 2002, the Twins sent Santana to the minors for 2 months to work almost exclusively on perfecting his changeup. He did this for 10 starts and came back up to the majors with a terrific changeup to complement his very good fastball. While in the minors, pitching coach Bobby Cuellar made Santana throw at least one changeup to every batter. According to Cuellar, Santana would sometimes throw 20 in a row during games."

 

Bobby Cuellar, y'all! Give him a pitcher that's willing to learn, and watch what happens.

[jorgenswest]

Back to the trades

 

Sanchez-Turner

 

Sanchez has more value than Liriano so it is good that he is off the market this early. Turner is a great return for them. His lower k rate this year may be some concern but he is 21. Sanchez may not be a rental and by acquiring him now the Tigers will not need to forfeit a pick as they would had they signed him as a free agent.

 

Dempster-Delgado

 

As a rental, Dempster has more value than Liriano. It is also good that he is off the market. Delgado is a good prospect. He ranks similarly to the better prospects traded last summer like White and Wheeler, but comes with major league experience.

 

Ichiro for salary relief. I guess we might expect similar in a Morneau trade freeing up dollars to spend in the winter.

 

It does help set the market for Liriano. Hamels and a Garza are still out there and they should bring more. The Twins might be able to swing a trade for a package that the Cubs or Phillies turned down for that pair. At least Liriano is getting closer to the best option for a starting pitcher.

 

It is not reasonable to expect a return similar to the returns we saw yesterday.

[twinswon1991]

The bottom line is the Twins haven't done well at delveloping pitchers and position players over the last decade. Hell if they would have they wouldn't have to give 2 year deals to 38 year old infielders or have a rotation with a bunch of no-name AAAA scrubs.

You nailed it!

[Rosterman]

Hey, Twins did manage to grab Eric Hurley, former Ranger and Angel, as a a free agent signee.