Trade Deadline Heartache.

[kab21]

If he thought that, why did he sign a bunch of 30-some year olds last off-season (Marquis, Carroll, Doumit, Willingham) ? I suspect that Ryan said that this team will be ok with just pennies being pinched.

A bunch of 30+ yr olds on short and relatively small contracts. One of those old men might land the Twins a really nice prospect or two at the trade deadline or next season. I think that is a pretty effective way to rebuild when you aren't outrageously poor (and the Twins aren't).

 

I really don't understand why the only possible rebuild scenario that you understand is the burn it to the ground and completely start over type of rebuild. signing a couple of veterans on short contracts is fine as long as they don't block legitimate prospects.

[kab21]

the twins drafted a pair of 18 year olds... which decade will they help in?

Ugh... Really? You're upset that the Twins drafted HS players as part of a rebuild? You don't fix 100 loss teams in an offseason and in the draft you trade upside (HS) for shorter time to the majors (college) picks. There is no correct way to draft but buxton was considered by many to be the best prospect in the draft. I think you are a little to impatient if you think the Twins should have drafted differently.

[Shane Wahl]

bathroom attendent maybe? after all didnt he have input into the gay stadium called target field?

Are you 13 years old?

[Shane Wahl]

Cheers RB, too much negativity for awhile, I love when guys try to prove you're wrong about liking something. I'm a baseball fan and especially a Twins fan, in the big picture there is lots of good discussion here, you just have to filter out the crap.

I agree. I am cynical as hell, but it has been too much for me lately.

[Riverbrian]

Cheers RB, too much negativity for awhile, I love when guys try to prove you're wrong about liking something. I'm a baseball fan and especially a Twins fan, in the big picture there is lots of good discussion here, you just have to filter out the crap.

I hear ya and Shane... It drove me out for a little while myself. The combination of that and seemingly less posts from guys like you did seem to tip the balance in the wrong direction.

 

There are guys on this board worth reading... You are one of them. There are some new guys worth reading as well.

 

There are some on this board that I disagree with but are still worth reading but yeah... we gotta get the balance back.

[snepp]

Get a room.

[zenser]

I feel that the past offseason was a step in the right direction. Would I liked to see Cuddyer and or Kubel resigned, of course I would have. Having them sign elsewhere hurt in both production and in team leadership. Cuddyer's leadship and willingness to play anywhere was huge for us in the past and Kubel just recently was leading the NL in RBI. At the time Willingham signed, Cuddyer and Kubel were still unsigned and the writing on the wall was that one of them if not both weren't coming back. The Zumaya and Marquis deals both didn't pan out but at the time they were low risk, high reward deals. Those aren't any different than other posters on here wanting to go after Jonathan Sanchez after he was DFA. Jamey Carroll hasn't been great by any means but it was a signing to help with the infield defense. He has done that and he has had a few clutch ABs. Jarod Burton was a very nice under the radar signing that was a low risk high reward signing. Unlike Zumaya and Marquis, Burton has given us the high reward. Doumit was another good signing. He isn't Jason Kubel but he is a realiable bat and is a decent option behind the plate or at DH. Looking at FA catchers for this coming offseason, other than the guys we wouldn't sign like McCann or Martin, he is the best option for a backup catcher.

 

If the Twins are inclided to make a trade at the deadline, I really hope they get value. Willingham doesn't hurt them if he isn't traded. His value is high right now and with Carlos Quentin resigning with San Diego, his stock wont get any higher than it is right now. But to trade him, you better be blown away with an offer. Same goes for Span. As for Liriano, I think the Twins need to work hard on an extension. If he doesn't sign an extension, pursue a trade. The market should be good considering what Detroit gave up for Sanchez and what is rumored in the Dempster deal. I admit I think Liriano is shaky and you don't know what you are going to get. I admit April was terrible for him. But since the return to the rotation, that Liriano is just as good as any sencond tier FA that is likely to sign with the Twins in the offseason. For all the dreamers, give me two reasons why a top tier FA pitcher would want to sign here? I know there are other second tier guys out there (see my comments below). Would you take Liriano over say an Anibel Sanchez or Edwin Jackson? Both guys I mentioned are just like Liriano. Both have shown flashes and both have had bad stretches.

 

Going into this next offseason, starting pitching is obviously going to be the focus. The twins are set in the OF, corner inf, and catcher. I don't know what is available for FA middle inf, but signing a starting 2B and allowing Carroll to come off the bench should be a priority behind signing 2-3 free agent pitchers. I can see the Twins targeting SPs like Brandon McCarthy and Shaun Marcum. I would love them to go after Greinke or Hamels but honestly, I don't think that is feasible. Hamels is going to end up in a big market and Greinke is generating a lot of attention now at the deadline and teams like Atlanta and Washington are being rumored as possible fits for him. I don't see them coming to Minnesota. These are just my opinions...agree or not, they are just opinions.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I agree. I am cynical as hell, but it has been too much for me lately.

Bad teams tend to bring out the worst in people. It's hard for an entire board not to turn on itself when a team has a feeling of hopelessness around it.

 

It will pass. And if it doesn't, I'm sure we'll start cleaning it up by force if necessary.

[beckmt]

I don't think that it was expected that neither Gibson or Wimmers would not be in the rotation by 2013. At the current time Gibson may be by the end of next year, but do not expect Wimmers to be there until 2014 at the earliest. That means we still need a pitching upgrade as the starters the Twins currently have will not do well against the good hitting clubs.

Liriano when on is the Twins best pitcher, off he is what he is last night. Need a fair return for him, but that will play out after Dempster is traded and possibly Garza. Expect Ryan will have to take a low A or B+ prospect at best and those would be in A ball.

Willingham or Span will probably be traded if the offer is good. Pitching is still the primary need, but clubs are more reluctant than ever to give up veru good pitching prospects. Twins do not need a group of #3 starters in return.

[JB_Iowa]

I wasn't a big fan of hiring Terry Ryan back as GM -- primarily because I think this whole organization is way too much of an "old boys club". I realize that atmosphere isn't unique to Minnesota but I do think that the Twins take it to a new level -- if you examine people in front office and management positions, there is very little change. And, regardless of what Ryan thinks, I don't think that changing titles or a bit of a shift in responsibilities really invokes many new ideas or much energy.

 

And I do agree with the original poster that the primary motivating factor in the firing/rehiring of Bill Smith was that the Pohlads wanted to reduce payroll. But then, I thought that was pretty evident already last fall.

 

It's hard for me to criticize the failure to resign Cuddyer and Kubel. Willingham appears to be a more than adequate outfield replacement for Cuddyer (albeit LF not RF) for less money. And while I was more interested in resigning Kubel than Cuddyer, I think he wanted a change from TF. Now he's got a new stadium that is closer to his home in California. I doubt that he'd be producing at the same level in Minnesota. And frankly, I couldn't see spending the money for Nathan when I didn't expect this team to be very good. (Although given a fairly healthy Mauer and Morneau, I did hope that this team would be better than they are now).

 

The Capps and Carroll signings left me pretty much at "meh". Doumit has been a pleasant surprise and is becoming one of my favorites. As for what has or hasn't happened with trades, its pretty hard to make a judgment when you don't know what discussions have occurred.

 

While I don't think Ryan has done a fantastic job, I don't think it has been horrible either. And that, is perhaps my biggest gripe -- the Twins just seem mired in mediocrity and nobody seems willing to do anything to change it. Something has to give -- either a massive change of players, a change in the on-field staff, a shake-up in the front office -- or some meaningful combination of all 3. If nothing much changes, I'm afraid we'll still be having these mediocrity discussions in 2014 and 2015. I'm prepared for a mediocre 2013 but I'd like some glimmer of hope that things will improve significantly thereafter.

[deanlambrecht]

You realize that not all rebuilds are 4+ year rebuilds right? When he said they needed to be rebuilt I imagine he had a 2-3 year timeline in mind (good chance to win division in 2014). Willingham, Doumit and Caroll all filled a need at the time, Willingham was the bat set to replace Kubel/Cuddyer, Doumit was the back up catcher that we have been begging for ever since Butera got his first major league at bat and Carroll provided some insurance and stability at the MI spots.

 

Even when a team is rebuilding they have a responsibility to put a major league club onto the field night in and night out, signing 1 year contracts is never a bad move and Doumit preformed great in that role and looks like he will be a big part of the rebuilding club.

 

Carroll is hurting nothing long term as is Doumit, unless you think that giving Nishioka, Casilla or the next Tolbert more playing time at SS/2B would help the team as would giving Butera more at bats behind the plate. Neither of these guys are hurting the rebuilding effort!

Exactly this.

[zenser]

While I don't think Ryan has done a fantastic job, I don't think it has been horrible either. And that, is perhaps my biggest gripe -- the Twins just seem mired in mediocrity and nobody seems willing to do anything to change it. Something has to give -- either a massive change of players, a change in the on-field staff, a shake-up in the front office -- or some meaningful combination of all 3. If nothing much changes, I'm afraid we'll still be having these mediocrity discussions in 2014 and 2015. I'm prepared for a mediocre 2013 but I'd like some glimmer of hope that things will improve significantly thereafter.

I think we will still be in mediocrity in 2014 and 2015. The young core that is coming up will take lumps along the way and there needs to be something added to the minor league system in terms of pitching. I like the upside of both Gibson and Wimmers. As a previous poster said, 2014 is more realistic for these two. Beyond these two and Diamond, who are the starting pitchers? Hendriks? I think they need to get another young arm or two that will be ready in 2014 or 2015. They will also need to be active in free agency to complement these young arms.

 

Look at the Royals, plenty or young talent on the field and plenty of young arms that are hurt and having Tommy John surgery. Without building starting pitching in the minors, I am afraid the 2014 and 2015 Twins will look similar to the Royals this year with lots of young talent on the field and a bunch of young pitchers or mediocare veterans.

[drjim]

While I don't think Ryan has done a fantastic job, I don't think it has been horrible either. And that, is perhaps my biggest gripe -- the Twins just seem mired in mediocrity and nobody seems willing to do anything to change it. Something has to give -- either a massive change of players, a change in the on-field staff, a shake-up in the front office -- or some meaningful combination of all 3. If nothing much changes, I'm afraid we'll still be having these mediocrity discussions in 2014 and 2015. I'm prepared for a mediocre 2013 but I'd like some glimmer of hope that things will improve significantly thereafter.

I think this is a fair complaint, though I think saying nobody is willing to do anything about it is a little unfair. They did fire the GM.

 

It is probably impossible to radically turn over a MLB roster.

 

I think they have to make a change to the field staff after this season. I thought Gardy was a goner but I think he may hang on. It would be crazy to have two bad seasons and keep the exact same coaching staff. That will be the true test of whether this is an old boys club or not.

[JB_Iowa]

But why did they fire the GM? Was it because of his mediocre job performance or was it because Bill Smith wasn't on board with cutting the payroll? Does this ownership and top management have a commitment to excellence or only a commitment to the almighty dollar?

 

(In fairness, they also changed the manager and pitching coach at Rochester although I think that was primarily about keeping the Rochester affiliate happy -- if they hadn't been complaining bitterly I'm not sure that would have happened.)

 

I wish I was convinced that the field staff would change after this season. I wish I was even more convinced that there would be front office changes. While turmoil in the staff isn't good, SOME change frequently creates a new vitality.

 

Finally, I wish that I felt like they were as committed to improving this team as they are to making a profit.

[Brock Beauchamp]

But why did they fire the GM? Was it because of his mediocre job performance or was it because Bill Smith wasn't on board with cutting the payroll?

It probably had something to do with Smith's proclivity to wander the hallways of Target Field, screaming about how Jim Hoey was going to "figure it out" any day now.

 

The guy had absolutely no roadmap for the franchise. He made moves seemingly at random.

[Buck Nasty]

The guy had absolutely no roadmap for the franchise. He made moves seemingly at random.

 

I'm by no means a Bill Smith defender, but I do believe he had a plan - it just simply failed miserably. The Santana trade should have netted us a minimum of a couple good young arms out of Humber/Mulvey/Guerra. And Gomez was billed as "5 tool" (as always - over used). Then giving up Bartlett/Garza for Delmon was going to be the the piece de resistance. Whoops. Santana/Garza/Bartlett where three pretty good players who netted little or nothing back. The combination of those failed trades and the injuries to M&M pretty much sunk the team for a couple years.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'm by no means a Bill Smith defender, but I do believe he had a plan - it just simply failed miserably. The Santana trade should have netted us a minimum of a couple good young arms out of Humber/Mulvey/Guerra. And Gomez was billed as "5 tool" (as always - over used). Then giving up Bartlett/Garza for Delmon was going to be the the piece de resistance. Whoops. Santana/Garza/Bartlett where three pretty good players who netted little or nothing back. The combination of those failed trades and the injuries to M&M pretty much sunk the team for a couple years.

Maybe, but I have a hard time following a plan that involves trading the best pitcher in baseball and your best young starter in the same offseason.

 

While those trades definitely could have gone better, I'm not sure where Smith expected to find pitching in the short term.

[twinsnorth49]

Get a room.

Is there a spare one in your Mom's basement, or do you and your sister share the same one?

[twinsnorth49]

It probably had something to do with Smith's proclivity to wander the hallways of Target Field, screaming about how Jim Hoey was going to "figure it out" any day now.

 

The guy had absolutely no roadmap for the franchise. He made moves seemingly at random.

 

I couldn't agree with this more, people can criticize Ryan for seemingly not making as big a difference as some would like but I do believe he will put this team back to a competitive state with a clear direction and purpose. Smith was winging it.

[kab21]

Why are there so many people that mention Wimmers and Gibson together on this board? Other than being 1st rd selections in consecutive years they have nothing in common. Gibson looks to have a nice MLB career while Wimmers has mountains to climb just to become a top 10 prospect again.

[Thrylos]

It probably had something to do with Smith's proclivity to wander the hallways of Target Field, screaming about how Jim Hoey was going to "figure it out" any day now.

 

The guy had absolutely no roadmap for the franchise. He made moves seemingly at random.

While the interim has a roadmap? I cannot believe that... Just look at the heap of MiLB FAs he signed this offseason and brought in ST hoping that a couple will stick. That not a roadmap, it is playing darts.

[Brock Beauchamp]

While the interim has a roadmap? I cannot believe that... Just look at the heap of MiLB FAs he signed this offseason and brought in ST hoping that a couple will stick. That not a roadmap, it is playing darts.

Ryan made a bunch of logical moves outside of expecting Marquis to be any good. It wasn't hard to figure out his game plan, though he obviously should have put more emphasis on the rotation.

 

He certainly didn't trade off 40% (the best 40%, to boot) of the rotation in one offseason, that's for sure.

[DaveW]

While the interim has a roadmap? I cannot believe that... Just look at the heap of MiLB FAs he signed this offseason and brought in ST hoping that a couple will stick. That not a roadmap, it is playing darts.

Your bit is getting extremely tiresome.

[snepp]

Wait a minute, bringing in heaps of free minor league players, in the hopes that you find some usable league minimum players, is a bad thing?

[Seth Stohs]

I'd say that the Twins did very, very well with their minor league free agents this year. They clearly had a plan of adding some arms who have had some upper-level success. He picked out a couple of position players that have helped.. Some won't work, and frankly, too many have contributed this year, but that's not a bad thing at all.

[twinsnorth49]

Your bit is getting extremely tiresome.

seconded, I'll add lame as well.

[kab21]

While the interim has a roadmap? I cannot believe that... Just look at the heap of MiLB FAs he signed this offseason and brought in ST hoping that a couple will stick. That not a roadmap, it is playing darts.

What exactly was the downside to this?

 

It seems to be well worth it considering the success that Burton has had.

[Riverbrian]

They have a big board and TR writes stuff on it.

 

Underneath his wife's request to bring home Milk, Bread and Catfood is an organizational depth chart.

 

TR also has spread sheets and information on his computer with scouts projections, contract information, performance reviews and information that is compiled on players inside the organization and from other teams throughout the minor league system and outside of professional ball.

 

And if that wasnt enough... He has a personal secretary that keeps him on schedule and will hand him stuff if he has misplaced it.

 

He also has an assistant GM plus three special assistants to the GM (actually 8 special assistants if you count Molitor, Herbie, Oliva, Carew and Blyleven).

 

They also have a research manager and just plain ole researchers.

 

The Twins have a director of baseball operations and a minor league director and people who work under them.

 

They have a director or scouting and a pro scout coordinator and a boatload of plain ole scouts who go to multiple games at major league parks, minor league parks, along with college and high school fields. I should also mention that the scouting happens not only on American soil but also internationally. These scouts bring stopwatches and radar guns just to be equipped with thing a ma jigs that help in evaluation. Plus the scouts talk with coaches and find out information about a players makeup and they write stuff down with pen, pencil or type it on iPads or laptops or smart phones and send it off. If that wasn't enough... Scouts and their opinions are not just taken as gospel. They have cross checkers who reevaluate any lofty advocacy for a scout in the field to make sure the guy isn't out of his mind.

 

Terry Ryan also has an experienced major league manager, a manager at each level of the farm system, multiple coaches at all levels of the organization including pitching, hitting, base running, catching, infield and outfield defense specialists.

 

Heres the kicker. A bunch of these guys actually get together from time to time and hold meetings to communicate and they send email back and forth when they are not meeting and they talk on the phone as well. Numbers for everyone are saved on cell phones. If Terry Ryan needs to talk with his pro scouting coordinator. He just scrolls down his contact list on his phone to Vern or his secretary will call him and say "please hold for Terry Ryan and then transfers the call to Him.

 

With all of these people working for the owner, Terry Ryan and the good of the organization. I would be surprised if there is no plan in place.

 

The overwhelming majority on this board including me. Have Fangraphs and some internet reading material written by people not inside any organization and we use that to form opinions on players that we see occasionally at games we attend or watch on TV.

 

So let's hang em. Thats all the information I need. Fan Graphs and an opinion. I'm good to go.

[old nurse]

Maybe, but I have a hard time following a plan that involves trading the best pitcher in baseball and your best young starter in the same offseason.

 

While those trades definitely could have gone better, I'm not sure where Smith expected to find pitching in the short term.

Blackburn, Humber, and Slowey. Gibson, Guerra, and Wimmers long term. Don't shoot the messenger. Really, short term I bet he thought the first three could carry the team and the next three would put the Twins over the top. It was a house of cards.

[twinsnorth49]

They have a big board and TR writes stuff on it.

 

Underneath his wife's request to bring home Milk, Bread and Catfood is an organizational depth chart.

 

TR also has spread sheets and information on his computer with scouts projections, contract information, performance reviews and information that is compiled on players inside the organization and from other teams throughout the minor league system and outside of professional ball.

 

And if that wasnt enough... He has a personal secretary that keeps him on schedule and will hand him stuff if he has misplaced it.

 

He also has an assistant GM plus three special assistants to the GM (actually 8 special assistants if you count Molitor, Herbie, Oliva, Carew and Blyleven).

 

They also have a research manager and just plain ole researchers.

 

The Twins have a director of baseball operations and a minor league director and people who work under them.

 

They have a director or scouting and a pro scout coordinator and a boatload of plain ole scouts who go to multiple games at major league parks, minor league parks, along with college and high school fields. I should also mention that the scouting happens not only on American soil but also internationally. These scouts bring stopwatches and radar guns just to be equipped with thing a ma jigs that help in evaluation. Plus the scouts talk with coaches and find out information about a players makeup and they write stuff down with pen, pencil or type it on iPads or laptops or smart phones and send it off. If that wasn't enough... Scouts and their opinions are not just taken as gospel. They have cross checkers who reevaluate any lofty advocacy for a scout in the field to make sure the guy isn't out of his mind.

 

Terry Ryan also has an experienced major league manager, a manager at each level of the farm system, multiple coaches at all levels of the organization including pitching, hitting, base running, catching, infield and outfield defense specialists.

 

Heres the kicker. A bunch of these guys actually get together from time to time and hold meetings to communicate and they send email back and forth when they are not meeting and they talk on the phone as well. Numbers for everyone are saved on cell phones. If Terry Ryan needs to talk with his pro scouting coordinator. He just scrolls down his contact list on his phone to Vern or his secretary will call him and say "please hold for Terry Ryan and then transfers the call to Him.

 

With all of these people working for the owner, Terry Ryan and the good of the organization. I would be surprised if there is no plan in place.

 

The overwhelming majority on this board including me. Have Fangraphs and some internet reading material written by people not inside any organization and we use that to form opinions on players that we see occasionally at games we attend or watch on TV.

 

So let's hang em. Thats all the information I need. Fan Graphs and an opinion. I'm good to go.

Amazing that they have this huge infrastructure aimed at identifying and developing talent and all they really need to do is check into Twins Daily for what to do. They could save a ton of money if they only knew this.