Article: Minnesota's Misuse of Meyer?

[tobi0040]

I would be more than fine carrying an extra pitcher for a 4-6 week stretch if it meant letting Meyer get the work he needs.

 

I would sacrifice a pinch hit attempt late in games for a team on pace to win 60 games

[Riverbrian]

 

It's not that simple. Letting a flawed young player work on his game at the major league level because you're not going to win anyway is fine, in theory. But what about the bullpen??? Meyer is a time bomb. There is no single player in the entire Twins organization more likely to flame out and have to be relieved in the third inning.  That may not be a problem for his development. But every time that happens, there is a cost -- and not just in that game, but in the next several games.  You just can't do that to a team on a regular basis.  And right now, Meyer just can't be trusted.  He could drive the entire pitching staff off a cliff. 

 

I just don't get this blaming of management for his inability to be consistent. This was the concern from the day they got him.  He has great stuff, but can't master it with any consistency.  If only he could get it all under control, think how great he will be.  I'm not saying it can't still happen.  But the fact that it hasn't is not the Twins's fault. Did jerking him around prevent his development?  I'm just not seeing that.  They gave him chance after chance as a starter.  He would have good stretches, then blow up.  They gave him so many chances, and he failed so many times, that he completely lost his confidence.  Switching him to the bullpen was an act of mercy.  He needed to pitch his way out of it, and he couldn't do that pitching three innings every five days.  And it helped.  He got to pitch more often, became effective again, and regained his confidence.  Not consistently effective, but more often than not.  And in the bullpen, if you blow up, it's not a crisis.  You get yanked, and get back on the horse the next day.  Once they put him in the bullpen, they kept him there all year so as not to jerk him around.  That didn't mean they'd given up on him, but that they wanted what was best for his development.

 

So what to do this year? I would be fine with giving up on him and leaving him in the bullpen, where his regular meltdowns aren't a career killer, and his periods of great pitching can be maximized.  Between May and Meyer, May deserves a rotation slot at least as much as him.  But I am also fine with saying, he still has potentially dominant stuff, now that his curve is working, let's let him start again and see if he matures. With tall guys, it takes a while.  REally, the only fault I find is bringing him up from the minors too soon.  Three games is not enough to prove you've solved a lifetime of inconsistency.  But there were some injuries, and they needed him. 

 

I'm sympathetic to the argument that sitting on the bench several days, pitching in relief once, and starting once, was not the optimal way to ease a weak pitcher into a comfortable role.  But that doesn't make it their fault that he failed. If he was as good as you all think, and as ready, he wouldn't have failed. Far better pitchers than he have been eased into the big leagues this way.  Did that ruin Johann Santana?  Of course not. He proved he deserved a more expanded role. Meyer did the opposite.  But that doesn't mean pitching in relief once ruined him.  All it did was expose that his three good games in the minors didn't mean he was a new man.  And that while his fastball and curve are ready, his changeup is not.  The injury replacement urgency passed, so they are sending him back down to work on getting all his pitches up to the major league level.  This may not have helped him, but if pitching once in relief ruined him, he was not the ace you hoped.

 

Other than that one relief appearance this season, though, I think their plan is fine. Last season, he needed relief from his constant collapses as a starter, and it worked. This season, they are showing confidence in his long term potential by letting him start again. If he can master ALL his pitches for a sustained period in AAA, then, and only then, give him another shot at the majors.  But until then, don't risk the entire bullpen on this guy until he shows more consistency.

 

Fantastic post

 

He simply shouldn't have been called up in the first place. Like you said... A good April doesn't make up for his career. He should have remained in AAA. 

[Mike Sixel]

He should have been up in 2014. The misuse goes back some time

[Jham]

 

He should have been up in 2014. The misuse goes back some time

If only we'd called him up in 2014 he'd be working on his 3rd Cy Young by now...  Or he'd have gotten shelled pitching 2 innings at a time and got sent down almost immediately, be in the same spot now, and the Twins would have 1 less option year for a guy who may develop late, making that inevitable roster decision that much more difficult...

Getting consistently rocked, more likely to happen at the MLB level, may send a message that you need to work on your control.  But I don't think facing big league hitters who can hit even good pitches a long way is the best spot to learn, and may have the opposite effect of making a pitcher afraid to throw strikes.  

Goodness, many speculated last year Meyer wanted to go to the pen as a faster route to the MLB.  This year he was good for a few starts and a logical decision to come up after a 16 inning game and 2 starters going to the DL.  He got yanked early in his start, but had thrown 30+ pitches under heavy duress a couple days prior.  He was likely not going to be asked to pitch much more than 60-75 pitches.  It was evident Milone was going to get into that game.  There was a lefty coming up, (they pinch hit Gattis).  And why not let him go back to AAA on a more positive note rather than setting it up for more damage?  

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the decisions, but I am saying the decisions are very defensible and far from mismanagement. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

He should have been up in 2014. The misuse goes back some time

But the 2014 Twins needed those innings to evaluate Yohan Pino, Sam Deduno, Anthony Swarzak, and Jared Burton!

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

If only we'd called him up in 2014 he'd be working on his 3rd Cy Young by now...  Or he'd have gotten shelled pitching 2 innings at a time and got sent down almost immediately, be in the same spot now, and the Twins would have 1 less option year for a guy who may develop late, making that inevitable roster decision that much more difficult...

It would NOT have cost the Twins an option year to call up Meyer in 2014, unless they called him up and sent him back down for more than 20 days that year.  If a player spends less than 20 days on "optional assignment" they don't use an "option year".  And Meyer would not have been on "optional assignment" until after we called him up (added him to the 40-man roster) and demoted him again.  With expanded rosters on Sep. 1, we could have even called up Meyer and demoted him around August 12th and still not have used an option year on him in 2014.

 

I understand with his shoulder, they probably wanted to end Meyer's 2014 around Sep. 1, but knowing that in advance was all the more reason to get him some looks in August or even July.  Allocating innings late in a lost season to guys like Pino, Deduno, Swarzak, and Burton is rather foolish -- all four of those pitchers were lost, for nothing in return, before November that year.

[Mike Sixel]

He was the best pitcher in the league in 2014, the twins were terrible, and had no pitching. There was no reason not to call him up. He may have failed, or succeeded. But now he is two years older, and still has not had a shot. A rebuilding team should be bringing guys up, not starting guys with no upside.

[Taildragger8791]

Even if you can find a defensible argument for Meyer's handling, the reason it's difficult to give the Twins the benefit of the doubt in these situations is because they lack proven results from their way of doing things. Unfortunately, the Twins over the last 10 years haven't shown they can develop solid MLB pitchers and as a result it is fair to call into question their decision-making and methods with young players. Scott Baker is the best, maybe the only, quality starting pitcher we've developed in this system in over 10 years. The jury is still out on Gibson due to his consistency issues, and Berrios has promise but is only 2 starts into his career. Berrios also appears to have an other-worldly confidence and drive to be great, so he is a bit of a unique case. Almost every other pitcher they've developed is out of the league or is holding on as a fringe journeyman. And no, I don't give their development system credit for players that came in nearly major league ready (Liriano, Johan, etc).

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

his year he was good for a few starts and a logical decision to come up after a 16 inning game and 2 starters going to the DL. 

What?  Since when is a promising pitcher, in the midst of re-establishing himself as a starter after a trying season, a "logical" choice to be called up exclusively to be an emergency reliever?  Especially with Graham and Dean on the 40-man roster?

 

Meyer could have made his Tuesday April 26th start in Rochester, then been recalled for Milone's next turn Sunday on regular rest.  It made no sense to skip his start so he could sit unused in MLB, then squeeze in a mop-up bullpen tune-up, then give him one start but limit his pitch count because you skipped his last start to sit unused in MLB...

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Not only do you think it's a good idea, Meyer's agrees with you.

 

http://www.1500espn.com/twins-2/2016/03/wetmore-twins-are-making-a-mistake-moving-alex-meyer-out-of-the-bullpen/

 

“I loved it,” Meyer said recently on last year’s move to relief. “Obviously I was open for it because the way that things were going I knew I was either going to go down to Double-A or get moved to the bullpen.”

 

I think starting him in AAA is good to get him more innings, but at the majors, his future is in the bullpen.

This only shows me that Meyer handles a demotion more maturely than a Pelfrey or Nolasco. May and Milone have handled demotions well, too. Is it time to think about a demotion for Hughes?

[tobi0040]

 

This only shows me that Meyer handles a demotion more maturely than a Pelfrey or Nolasco. May and Milone have handled demotions well, too. Is it time to think about a demotion for Hughes?

 

Hughes needs to move to the pen.  He has no velocity anymore.  Get him up to 92-93 again in shorter stints, with his control and you can salvage the remainder of his contract.  Of course that won't happen because he is making too much money.  We should approach contracts as sunk costs and move forward with a simple question what is the best place for this guy in order to maximize wins?

 

To the myriad of posters above, I am not sure how Meyer's treatment is defensible, on any level whatsover.  To giving innings to Pino, etc. as Spy pointed out, or Milone now.  or calling him up to be an emergency pen guy when you have guys better suited for that role screams the leaders don't have a clue what they are doing, or are not on the same page.  Or both.

Edited May 5, 2016 by tobi0040

[barbarosa]

Bottom line, Meyers got screwed during the game and after, but we need to look big picture.  What if management is trying to work Nolasco for a trade?  He needs to pitch and pitch good for any hopes of trades.  If you send down Meyers for his so-called poor performance, what about Hughes and Gibson?  Do they need to pitch more in AAA to get back their "groove"?  What is good for one pitcher should be the same for all pitchers. 

 

We lost last nights game in the first inning...Hughes was not going to pitch well last night and you could see it in the first inning.  Only time will tell because management damn sure won't...

[tobi0040]

Bottom line, Meyers got screwed during the game and after, but we need to look big picture. What if management is trying to work Nolasco for a trade? He needs to pitch and pitch good for any hopes of trades. If you send down Meyers for his so-called poor performance, what about Hughes and Gibson? Do they need to pitch more in AAA to get back their "groove"? What is good for one pitcher should be the same for all pitchers.

 

We lost last nights game in the first inning...Hughes was not going to pitch well last night and you could see it in the first inning. Only time will tell because management damn sure won't...

What is the big picture for Milone? I would argue a lack of big picture view is what irritates many of us.

 

Further, it is delusional to think we are going to get anything of value for Nolasco. So it is not in the best interest to allocate many more innings to him in hopes he yields something slightly better (versus breaking in a talented pitcher)

 

I can't help but think that guys like May and Meyer just don't fit the mold the Twins are used to. They have not been able to adjust to guys with slightly less than perfect control, even if they are a good 2 additions k per 9 guys than what we have.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Hughes needs to move to the pen.  He has no velocity anymore.  Get him up to 92-93 again in shorter stints, with his control and you can salvage the remainder of his contract.  Of course that won't happen because he is making too much money.

In Hughes' case, I am not sure the limitation is simply financial.  Given their respective histories and the reasonable terms of the original deal, it is likely that Hughes signed with the Twins with the promise that he would be a starting pitcher.  The contract extension was likely just the Twins backing up that promise with money.

Evidence suggests that the Twins also gave a similar promise to Kevin Correia, and they stuck to it.

 

It would probably take another DL stint for them to ask Hughes about pitching out of the pen.

[tobi0040]

Bottom line, Meyers got screwed during the game and after, but we need to look big picture. What if management is trying to work Nolasco for a trade? He needs to pitch and pitch good for any hopes of trades. If you send down Meyers for his so-called poor performance, what about Hughes and Gibson? Do they need to pitch more in AAA to get back their "groove"? What is good for one pitcher should be the same for all pitchers.

 

We lost last nights game in the first inning...Hughes was not going to pitch well last night and you could see it in the first inning. Only time will tell because management damn sure won't...

What is the big picture for Milone? I would argue a lack of big picture view is what irritates many of us.

 

Further, it is delusional to think we are going to get anything of value for Nolasco. So it is not in the best interest to allocate many more innings to him in hopes he yields something slightly better (versus breaking in a talented pitcher)

 

I can't help but think that guys like May and Meyer just don't fit the mold the Twins are used to. They have not been able to adjust to guys with slightly less than perfect control, even if they are a good 2 additional k's per 9 than what we have.

Edited May 5, 2016 by tobi0040

[ScrapTheNickname]

 

Provided he has success in Rochester, he'll get another opportunity in Minnesota. It's a long season and a rotation spot will open up.

Personally I don't like his chances of harnessing his stuff and being a good big league starter, so I'd bite the bullet, put him in the pen, and hope to have him up and contributing in a month.

But I understand the lure of hoping for a dominant starter, so I can see why others might choose that route. Either way, I'm not that upset with this past week. He got an opportunity--not a long one, but an opportunity--and crapped the bed. Twice.

Go down and earn more opportunity. If he's truly ready, that should be a snap.

I was reading through these hoping I would come to one that I agree with. I also "don't like his chances of harnessing his stuff." He is filthy wild, and he's 26. If he isn't just plain filthy at this level, he won't succeed. Let's hope against hope that he figures out his mechanics because they look like a total mess. He belongs in AAA doing that. (Clap for Berrios, who has, at least for now, come and done well!)

[tobi0040]

In Hughes' case, I am not sure the limitation is simply financial. Given their respective histories and the reasonable terms of the original deal, it is likely that Hughes signed with the Twins with the promise that he would be a starting pitcher. The contract extension was likely just the Twins backing up that promise with money.

Evidence suggests that the Twins also gave a similar promise to Kevin Correia, and they stuck to it.

 

It would probably take another DL stint for them to ask Hughes about pitching out of the pen.

Awesome. Another hand shake deal.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

If only we'd called him up in 2014 he'd be working on his 3rd Cy Young by now...  Or he'd have gotten shelled pitching 2 innings at a time and got sent down almost immediately, be in the same spot now, and the Twins would have 1 less option year for a guy who may develop late, making that inevitable roster decision that much more difficult...

Getting consistently rocked, more likely to happen at the MLB level, may send a message that you need to work on your control.  But I don't think facing big league hitters who can hit even good pitches a long way is the best spot to learn, and may have the opposite effect of making a pitcher afraid to throw strikes.  

Goodness, many speculated last year Meyer wanted to go to the pen as a faster route to the MLB.  This year he was good for a few starts and a logical decision to come up after a 16 inning game and 2 starters going to the DL.  He got yanked early in his start, but had thrown 30+ pitches under heavy duress a couple days prior.  He was likely not going to be asked to pitch much more than 60-75 pitches.  It was evident Milone was going to get into that game.  There was a lefty coming up, (they pinch hit Gattis).  And why not let him go back to AAA on a more positive note rather than setting it up for more damage?  

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the decisions, but I am saying the decisions are very defensible and far from mismanagement.

 

You are vastly overstating Meyer's struggles and ignoring times he has been very good.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I was there. In person. The 2nd game of a split double header. I had fantastic seats, but drank a bit too much between games and every half inning it was off to the bathroom.

 

Edit, nope. Not his first game. My bad. His 4th start. Sorry.

that was the touch'em all pub crawl, which was really fun until May imploded

[Jham]

 

What?  Since when is a promising pitcher, in the midst of re-establishing himself as a starter after a trying season, a "logical" choice to be called up exclusively to be an emergency reliever?  Especially with Graham and Dean on the 40-man roster?

 

Meyer could have made his Tuesday April 26th start in Rochester, then been recalled for Milone's next turn Sunday on regular rest.  It made no sense to skip his start so he could sit unused in MLB, then squeeze in a mop-up bullpen tune-up, then give him one start but limit his pitch count because you skipped his last start to sit unused in MLB...

I think this probably what happens if the Twins didn't get 3 innings from Gibson then a 16 inning ball game the next day.  I'll admit I was confused when they brought him up and didn't use him.  Then when they announced he'd be starting, it made sense.  Then when he started, the reason why they only wanted to give him 1 start made sense.  I'm going to state once again that I'm not agreeing with the way Meyer's been handled.  I just happen to think there's a big difference between disagreeing and simply calling any other line of thinking "mismanagement".  Especially when your position is backed by hindsight, which is quite useful.  Meyer needs to pitch better plain and simple.
 

[Mike Sixel]

Calling it hindsight, when the entire board was questioning it as it happened? That seems unfair.

[Taildragger8791]

 

I think this probably what happens if the Twins didn't get 3 innings from Gibson then a 16 inning ball game the next day.  I'll admit I was confused when they brought him up and didn't use him.  Then when they announced he'd be starting, it made sense.  Then when he started, the reason why they only wanted to give him 1 start made sense.  I'm going to state once again that I'm not agreeing with the way Meyer's been handled.  I just happen to think there's a big difference between disagreeing and simply calling any other line of thinking "mismanagement".  Especially when your position is backed by hindsight, which is quite useful.  Meyer needs to pitch better plain and simple.
 

 

When they brought him up initially they said he was to be a reliever due to the overtaxed bullpen and struggling starters. Molitor even reportedly said he wasn't going to use him in high leverage situations. In other words, he'd be relegated to mop up duty in a decidedly lost game. He wasn't initially supposed to start, so that was just more head-scratching decision making. If they needed a warm body to eat up innings they could have called up some other yokel hanging on the 40-man. If you can't find anyone else then that's just even more evidence of a terribly mismanaged roster. How do you not have any redundancy for a couple short-term injuries?

 

Speaking of 40-man roster issues...what are the Twins going to do if they have to DL a catcher? Suzuki has been battling some nagging injuries already and had to gut out the game where Murphy got ejected. Centeno and Paulino aren't major leaguers, and the thought of pairing one of them with Murphy for 2+ weeks is depressing.

[KGB]

This only shows me that Meyer handles a demotion more maturely than a Pelfrey or Nolasco. May and Milone have handled demotions well, too. Is it time to think about a demotion for Hughes?

Or he realizes that his future is not as a starter likes many top relief pitchers. Nothing wrong with that, just back Perkins, Nathan, Rivera, etc. The Twins are giving him the opportunity to start in AAA, so if everyone here is right, he will dominate and be up later this year. If he doesn't dominate, he probably not as good as the hype.

[chopper0080]

Can we just change the title to Minnesota's Misuse of Young Players?

 

That should sum it up.

[tobi0040]

Or he realizes that his future is not as a starter likes many top relief pitchers. Nothing wrong with that, just back Perkins, Nathan, Rivera, etc. The Twins are giving him the opportunity to start in AAA, so if everyone here is right, he will dominate and be up later this year. If he doesn't dominate, he probably not as good as the hype.

Meyer should not need to outrun the bear, he needs to out run Milone. Gibson. Nolasco, etc. Give me a guy with hype and run him out there.

[Deduno Abides]

Or he realizes that his future is not as a starter likes many top relief pitchers. Nothing wrong with that, just back Perkins, Nathan, Rivera, etc. The Twins are giving him the opportunity to start in AAA, so if everyone here is right, he will dominate and be up later this year. If he doesn't dominate, he probably not as good as the hype.

 

You mean the guy who struck out the side in his first start doesn't have the talent to start? Of course he has the talent to start. He just needs good coaching to learn how to stay calm when things go wrong. I bet that 20 teams hope that the Twins give up on him so they can take a shot at fixing him. Ray Searage probably already knows what he would do.

[KGB]

 

You mean the guy who struck out the side in his first start doesn't have the talent to start?

One inning doesn't make a starter, it makes a relief pitcher. He'll get a chance to show us what kind of starter he is in AAA, last year that didn't work so well.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

You mean the guy who struck out the side in his first start doesn't have the talent to start? Of course he has the talent to start. He just needs good coaching to learn how to stay calm when things go wrong. I bet that 20 teams hope that the Twins give up on him so they can take a shot at fixing him. Ray Searage probably already knows what he would do.

Are you suggesting Neil Allen is a bad coach? Because... No, I can't agree with that even a little bit.

 

What Meyer needed was confidence and support. He didn't get that from Molitor with the quick hook in a game where he was struggling but not terrible.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Are you suggesting Neil Allen is a bad coach? Because... No, I can't agree with that even a little bit.

 

What Meyer needed was confidence and support. He didn't get that from Molitor with the quick hook in a game where he was struggling but not terrible.

Not from Allen either, who was on the bullpen phone when he should have been visiting the mound. I have no idea about Allen's overall effectiveness as Meyer's coach, though.

[Deduno Abides]

One inning doesn't make a starter, it makes a relief pitcher. He'll get a chance to show us what kind of starter he is in AAA, last year that didn't work so well.

He has talent. He needs wisdom. Unfortunately, it seems like the Twins shy away from this profile for pitchers and don't have a good track record of teaching wisdom, which is why veterans of moderate talent are given more opportunities.