More PED busts coming

[Thrylos]

 

What confidence do you have in throwing Arcia back into the mix?  He has been downright terrible in the field and at the plate.  

 

Same as throwing in Buxton/Kepler back into the mix.  Not only he has been better than these two, he has higher OPS+ than Plouffe, Dozier, Escobar, and Suzuki who are treated as starters.  So if Arcia is "terrible", the aforementioned half dozen is worse than terrible.

[jud6312]

 

What confidence do you have in throwing Arcia back into the mix?  He has been downright terrible in the field and at the plate.  

I see the guy that is only 25 and just a couple of years removed from 20 HRs. I also see a guy that is at least attempting use the entire field. Hard to be consistent when your playing time isn't.

 

There's a reason 3 teams have been so willing to let Grossman walk.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

 

There's a reason 3 teams have been so willing to let Grossman walk.

Grossman could be ok.  He was part of a big trade from Houston to Pitt so I'm not sure it's fair to say that Pitt let him walk.  Houston burned his three option years but only avg a little over 250 at-bat each season.  He had an opt out against Cleveland so he left them.  His minor league numbers have always been solid and he was a top 100 prospect several times.  He's not a future all-star but he could be a solid OFer for a good team.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Grossman could be ok.  He was part of a big trade from Houston to Pitt so I'm not sure it's fair to say that Pitt let him walk.  Houston burned his three option years but only avg a little over 250 at-bat each season.  He had an opt out against Cleveland so he left them.  His minor league numbers have always been solid and he was a top 100 prospect several times.  He's not a future all-star but he could be a solid OFer for a good team.  

I agree with your general points, but Grossman was only a top 100 prospect once, by one publication (Baseball Prospectus), at least among the 3 commonly listed at B-Ref (BA, BP, and MLB.com).

 

I'd also argue that his minor league numbers failed to be "solid" last year -- a 93 wRC+ in his third season in the PCL.  That was the catalyst for Houston releasing him, and Grossman failing to secure anything more than a minor league deal this past winter.

[USAFChief]

When did a career sub-.800 MiLB OPS for an outfielder become "solid?"

[David HK]

 

I think maybe he meant no names like 'Saltalamacchia' or 'Arruabarrena.' Hechevarria is probably in the clear too. 

In another sense, the late, great, Eddie Gaedel is probably safe, too.

[ashbury]

When did a career sub-.800 MiLB OPS for an outfielder become "solid?"

I take age and league level, and to some small extent whether it's a pitcher's league or a hitter's league, into account. And then, except for top prospects, what I am looking for is "not inconsistent with having a productive major league career".

 

For Grossman:

21 - high-A - OPS .869

22 - AA - .786 (two teams)

23 - AAA - .760 (partial season, called up to majors)

24 - AAA - .914 (ditto)

 

So up to year 2014, IMO he was making what I would call continuous progress. Summarized as a single word, "solid". You could not rule out him being a good player. He didn't quite make the adjustment at the major league level, but he hardly stunk up the joint, at age 24.

 

Then Grossman's 2015 was not too good. I am inclined to give any prospect a mulligan for any single season, on the assumption that you can lose a year to some nagging injury that doesn't actually put you on the DL. (Conversely, I am alert to ruling out an outlier good year too - "sorry son, you had your career year at age 21, bad timing".) If you don't cross out bad seasons, you can overlook an opportunity like Eduardo Escobar for example - remember how people questioned whether he could exceed Florimon's production at the plate, based on his most recent year being putrid?

 

Grossman's 2016 numbers at AAA were good enough, in small sample, with some power. As a waiver pickup, he's about as good a gamble as you will get. Of course there is the larger issue of why we are bottom-feeding, but oh well.

[jimmer]

What about 2013 when his MLB OPS was a hair over .700 in almost 300 PA, followed by 2014 when he had an OPS of .670 with 400+ PAs?  This before ever looking at 2015 where his numbers were so bad he got sent down to the minors.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

When did a career sub-.800 MiLB OPS for an outfielder become "solid?"

 

ML average OPS is sub .800 too, by quite a bit.  Chance to be solid is one thing.  I don't mind the Grossman pickup, but like others though, I do want Arcia playing pretty much every day. 

[Deduno Abides]

He never said they don't provide SOME benefit, just not the monstrous physical benefit many believe.

 

By far the most powerful muscle in the body is the mind.

So Lance Armstrong took PEDs and terrorized his teammates into taking them because he wanted everyone to have a mental boost?

[biggentleben]

 

So Lance Armstrong took PEDs and terrorized his teammates into taking them because he wanted everyone to have a mental boost?

 

Now you're getting into a different territory altogether. Modern PEDs actually would have tremendous physical benefit to the performance of an endurance athlete, like a cyclist or a distance runner. The ability to help the body heal itself over elongated workouts is not exactly something that brings value to baseball. Not an apples to apples comparison.

 

More like apples to potatoes.

[Deduno Abides]

Now you're getting into a different territory altogether. Modern PEDs actually would have tremendous physical benefit to the performance of an endurance athlete, like a cyclist or a distance runner. The ability to help the body heal itself over elongated workouts is not exactly something that brings value to baseball. Not an apples to apples comparison.

 

More like apples to potatoes.

It sounds like you agree that steroids help in cycling. No different than cycling, however, baseball is a physically demanding athletic event that is played daily, with erratic travel schedules. The ability to recover and perform again tomorrow at an expected level is difficult, yet directly tied to performance success and personal income. Steroids are a huge help with physical recovery. To think that they're not is to ignore the multitude of smart and successful players who have spent a lot of money and taken a lot of risk to get them.

[nicksaviking]

When did a career sub-.800 MiLB OPS for an outfielder become "solid?"

I'm not a Grossman believer, but the Twins desperately need more of the O even if they get less of the S. He has a track record of getting on base at all levels. I get the move even if I'm skeptical of the end payoff.

[Deduno Abides]

I'm not a Grossman believer, but the Twins desperately need more of the O even if they get less of the S. He has a track record of getting on base at all levels. I get the move even if I'm skeptical of the end payoff.

At this point, playing Robbie Grossman is not in the Top 10 of "Things that are wrong with the Twins," and may not even be in the Top 20.

[biggentleben]

 

It sounds like you agree that steroids help in cycling. No different than cycling, however, baseball is a physically demanding athletic event that is played daily, with erratic travel schedules. The ability to recover and perform again tomorrow at an expected level is difficult, yet directly tied to performance success and personal income. Steroids are a huge help with physical recovery. To think that they're not is to ignore the multitude of smart and successful players who have spent a lot of money and taken a lot of risk to get them.

 

But that is not the point being argued here. The point argued is that "Player X is hitting 25 home runs because of da roids!" That's just false.

 

Also, it's not steroids. They are performance enhancing drugs, most of them human growth hormone of some variety. That's what allows a guy to get back on the field. And, for what it's worth, similarly beneficial drugs were extremely legal throughout most of baseball history, interestingly until just before the steroid era really took hold, when finally there were punishments in 2005, even though they were "banned" in 1971.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Part of the problem with this debate is that no recognition is paid to the fact that certain roids do certain things.  Some build muscle.  Some increase endurance.  Some promote healing.  Some improve reflexes, etc. 

 

To be clear, I think baseball needs to police this itself, but I get really annoyed with the idea that a doctor cannot prescribe something that helps a player heal.

 

On the other side, let's not pretend that Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa hit all those home runs solely from the mental boost that roids provided.   It's not an accident that no one has approached 60 since.

[Thrylos]

 

Part of the problem with this debate is that no recognition is paid to the fact that certain roids do certain things.  Some build muscle.  Some increase endurance.  Some promote healing.  Some improve reflexes, etc. 

 

Um. no

 

Steroids build muscle and reduce fat.

 

Training and context does the rest.  eg. if someone is hurt, they help him heal (by building and repairing muscle tears), if someone is training for endurance, they increase endurance (because they build slow twitch instead of fast-twitch bulky muscle fibers) etc.  If someone is a bodybuilder and weight lifts, they increase muscle mass (big bulky fast twitch fibers;) and in combination with dehydrating agents and insulin reduce body fat and water content.

 

Growth factors, like HGH, have a bit more broad effects and they can help in the healing of connective tissue, such as ligaments, organs, bones, etc...

 

Reflexes is something they have no more than placebo power to improve, because it is an ingrained habitual reaction that happens by lots and lots and lots of repetition so it becomes "second nature".  Steroids might improve the muscles involved in the reflex motion, but that's about it.   Allegedly, stimulants (like "greenies" -amphetamines, a cousin of meth-amphetamine-, or the stuff that the Twins' manager snorted) "improve" reflexes, but there are no studies that suggest so.

[Platoon]

I think maybe he meant no names like 'Saltalamacchia' or 'Arruabarrena.' Hechevarria is probably in the clear too.

 

Mel Ott on the other hand has serious problems. . Luckily Hu is no longer here!