Dee Gordon PED suspension

[Otto von Ballpark]

Sorry I started this monster of a thread!

[Otto von Ballpark]

Here's an interesting take on the Dee Gordon suspension, in the context of the $50 mil extension he signed over the winter:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/gordon-suspension-magnifies-concerns-for-league-players/

 

I tend to agree with that author, a system of voiding contracts wouldn't be beneficial.

[biggentleben]

 

Mike, you might remember that the entire impetus of the Congressional investigation into PED use in the first place, was because kids were taking PEDs just to keep up with the Jones's. One CDC report said half a million teens were using steroids. You might disagree with that in principle, but in practice allowing professionals to use PEDs sure seems to trickle down.

 

And I wrote to John McCain at that time to ask him why baseball was his target. High school steroid/PED use has actually gone down significantly since the 1980s, when the rush of available steroids hit the GNC market unregulated at the time and sometimes promoted by a favorite NFL player. The Cardinals employed Dexter Manley, a known steroid user who had once stated that kids using steroids because they saw him doing it was something along the lines of "part of the consequence of being famous and good", while they were in Arizona, yet McCain oddly never pushed hard on the welfare of children when Manley walked into the Cardinals. In fact, there were pictures of the two of them together circulated around the time of the first congressional hearings that I cannot find on a quick Google Image search, but he even posed for a pic with Manley at one point and praised his redemption story (Manley after his career admitted that he never stopped using steroids during his career, only stopping the cocaine that got him suspended at one point).

[biggentleben]

 

I guess I diffentiate amphetamines from steroids.     Steroids change the composition of your body.    This is more what I consider performance enhancing drugs.    I don't think greenies get those guys to 70 homers but I might be wrong.    From Ball Four I always got the impression guys used them when they were drinking all night and the drugs just got them back to feeling normal.    Of course things are different now.    No great answers but if I didn't want the bad effects of juicing I wouldn't consider it fair that others were able to.

 

By far the majority of PEDs getting players suspended right now are things that are used to assist in healing and recovery, so helping a player get back onto the field, which is exactly what greenies did. Thrylos can call for the feds to arrest them all, but then the government would be playing a lot of baseball players who have been taking substances completely legal in the United States but banned in MLB as a PED.

[scottz]

 

For starters, doctors were among those givingi ballplayers the PEDs in the first go-around with this. And players often sited injury recovery as the reasoning, not performance enhancement. So the notion that the drugs would be used up to the point of health recovery and not an inch further is pretty naive IMO, as well as the notion that any team would be justified in telling a player "no you're not hurt" when he insists he is. It would require a complicated system of checks and balances and even then, I'm not sold on the worthiness of it. I don't want a league full of HGH-healed, 43 year old Bartolo Colons hogging roster spots well beyond their natural decline.

All systems of checks and balances are complicated. No need to discuss naivete unless we also want to discuss cynicism or other adjectives. I understand that players would continue to try to work around the checks and balances. I just think that there are valid uses of drugs for recovery that would trigger PED violations under today's rules and that those valid uses could be allowed. I'm not a doctor (or a chemist), so I can't say that definitively, but that's what my understanding leads me to believe.

[Thrylos]

 

The drug we're talking about are "illegal," only in MLB. They're prescribed and used readily outside of baseball.

 

However, they are schedule III drugs.  Which means that having them without prescription or distributing them are federal crimes.  Can Dee Gordon show a prescription?   If not, he should be in jail.

[Dr. Evil]

I don't use PEDs because I hear they give you a powerful case of the TOOTS!!

[Vanimal46]

 

Here's an interesting take on the Dee Gordon suspension, in the context of the $50 mil extension he signed over the winter:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/gordon-suspension-magnifies-concerns-for-league-players/

 

I tend to agree with that author, a system of voiding contracts wouldn't be beneficial.

Absolutely agree.. That could open up a whole can of worms with players on the back end of horrid contracts... Remember how far it went with the Yankees dragging A-Rod through the mud in order to get out of that contract? 

[bird]

Cheating is cheating, and it's wrong 100% of the time.

[KirbyDome89]

 

However, they are schedule III drugs.  Which means that having them without prescription or distributing them are federal crimes.  Can Dee Gordon show a prescription?   If not, he should be in jail.

I realize testosterone is a schedule III drug. NOBODY is arguing that illegally obtaining it using it is alright. I pointed out that it prescribed because people are treating it like some black market voodoo drug that nobody should possess. If you read through comments I made I was clear that using it while others aren't allowed to isn't ok. The argument is whether the drugs should be available to MLB players in order to heal/maintain their bodies during the season. 

[TheLeviathan]

Comparing steroid use in sports to alcohol is a really bad argument. Banned substances to improve performance are not recreational activities. We're talking about illegal, potentially harmful drugs that have a direct impact on performance.

 

What is more relevant is the concept of fraud as brought up earlier. We have anti-fraud laws to prevent a trickle down of falsity that could do major economic and social damage. Performance enhancers, as largely illegal, still trickle down. You open the doors and I guarantee you that a scary number of 15 year olds will be juicing much less 22year olds.

[biggentleben]

Comparing steroid use in sports to alcohol is a really bad argument. Banned substances to improve performance are not recreational activities. We're talking about illegal, potentially harmful drugs that have a direct impact on performance.

 

What is more relevant is the concept of fraud as brought up earlier. We have anti-fraud laws to prevent a trickle down of falsity that could do major economic and social damage. Performance enhancers, as largely illegal, still trickle down. You open the doors and I guarantee you that a scary number of 15 year olds will be juicing much less 22year olds.

I think you'd be disturbed how many kids show up to college using something to enhance performance. A coach in ACC baseball estimated to me that it was 40-50% that self reported using within their high school time, and it makes sense with 25 showcase games per year, an entire showcase circuit in the summer and winter invite tourneys where you can really get pro eyes on you, high school kids know a shot at the pros is literally gained or lost in every game.

[TheLeviathan]

I think you'd be disturbed how many kids show up to college using something to enhance performance. A coach in ACC baseball estimated to me that it was 40-50% that self reported using within their high school time, and it makes sense with 25 showcase games per year, an entire showcase circuit in the summer and winter invite tourneys where you can really get pro eyes on you, high school kids know a shot at the pros is literally gained or lost in every game.

I'm sure among elite athletes that's possible, but you're only going to see that increase if it becomes an expected component of professional play.

[Dakota Farmer]

It the next player agreement the owners should insist on having contracts voided if they are on drugs! The players stats are inflated due to ped's!

[diehardtwinsfan]

I personally have no problems with PEDs that are used to recover from injury, especially if they are prescribed by a doctor and being documented and monitored carefully.  That's a decision between the player and the doctor.  Technically, I wouldn't classify that as performance enhancing... that's just healing..  now HGH, masking agents, and those things?  I'd just assume MLB continue testing and keep that out. 

 

BTW, side note, but I have no problems with all of them being legal, separate issue, but at this point you do run into some of the real scenarios here where it forces people to do things to their bodies that have real nasty long term side effects....

[Mr. Brooks]

However, they are schedule III drugs. Which means that having them without prescription or distributing them are federal crimes. Can Dee Gordon show a prescription? If not, he should be in jail.

 

He should be in jail for use of a schedule 3 drug?

No wonder we imprison such a high percentage of our population.

Not everything that is illegal needs to result in jail time.

Going 65 in a 55 is illegal too but should we throw all the speeders in jail?

[biggentleben]

 

It the next player agreement the owners should insist on having contracts voided if they are on drugs! The players stats are inflated due to ped's!

 

No, not for certain. Many things classified as PEDs are simply used for healing and recovery. Heck, two drugs my father used after a knee replacement would be illegal in MLB.

[ashbury]

No, not for certain. Many things classified as PEDs are simply used for healing and recovery. Heck, two drugs my father used after a knee replacement would be illegal in MLB.

In that case I'm in favor of an exemption for second basemen who get their knees replaced.

[deanlambrecht]

I'm surprised no one pointed out this coincidence:  Bonds joins Marlins, Marlins star player suspended for PEDs.  

 

/ducks

[Hrbowski]

The hate for steroid users is perplexing. Most of the stuff that is being used is not to enhance performance, but to help heal from injuries.

[bluechipper]

 

The hate for steroid users is perplexing. Most of the stuff that is being used is not to enhance performance, but to help heal from injuries.

So some players should be able to use a banned substance to get back on the field quicker, while the ones who heal without it and are forced to stay out longer is fair to you?

[Hrbowski]

 

So some players should be able to use a banned substance to get back on the field quicker, while the ones who heal without it and are forced to stay out longer is fair to you?

No, just legalize drugs that are legal outside of baseball.

[bluechipper]

 

He should be in jail for use of a schedule 3 drug?
No wonder we imprison such a high percentage of our population.
Not everything that is illegal needs to result in jail time.
Going 65 in a 55 is illegal too but should we throw all the speeders in jail?

Speeding isn't fraudulently taking money away from clean players.

 

Not that I want to see steroid users go to jail or anything, just saying.

[Hrbowski]

 

PED bans are stupid.

 

Most of them are about staying healthy over the long season. I don't expect any of you to agree with me.

I agree. 100% agreement.

[bluechipper]

 

No, just legalize drugs that are legal outside of baseball.

A system like that would be much easier to abuse, I'm sure.

[Hrbowski]

 

A system like that would be much easier to abuse, I'm sure.

I don't think that employers should be able to tell their employees what drugs they can and can't take if the drug is legal. For crying out loud, they let them get off with use of illegal recreational drugs in the Majors, but not in the minors! Even if you are playing on the Colorado Springs Sky Sox you will still get suspended for use of Marijuana. Come on, restrictive leagues just create sneaky players.

[Mr. Brooks]

The hate for steroid users is perplexing. Most of the stuff that is being used is not to enhance performance, but to help heal from injuries.

That may be true, and perhaps the rules need to be addressed, but for now the substances are banned, so using them is cheating.

[biggentleben]

 

Speeding isn't fraudulently taking money away from clean players.

 

Not that I want to see steroid users go to jail or anything, just saying.

 

No, it's (often recklessly) endangering the lives of those in the vehicle with the person speeding and everyone else on the road at the same time. Much more concerning in my opinion.

[biggentleben]

 

That may be true, and perhaps the rules need to be addressed, but for now the substances are banned, so using them is cheating.

 

And that part I don't disagree with, but I do believe a discussion needs to happen about why certain substances are banned. What do they do to truly "enhance" performance? How is a medication that enhances the strength of tendons and ligaments any different than Tommy John surgery to replace a ligament? Why one and not the other? Those are some of the questions that should be asked.

[ashbury]

Most of the stuff that is being used is not to enhance performance, but to help heal from injuries.

That may be the theory. In practice, players will use the substances to push harder and farther, even in the face of injury. The problem with the substances is that they present players with the moral dilemma of risking their long term health in order to keep up with those who choose to accept the risk.