Article: Give Alex Meyer A Chance To Start

[Otto von Ballpark]

I guess what isn't clear is what you make of that determination - that the Twins are deprioritizing putting Meyer in the best position. (I don't necessarily agree with that determination, as I think it's more complex, even though I do agree it's less than ideal). The implication/inference of that determination would seem to be that the Twins are making a mistake. And for some posters, maybe not you, this mistake is illustrative of a general incompetence by the FO in regard to the development of prospects, and hence the piling on (before Meyer even makes his first ML start, no less).

Yeah, I think it's a mistake. Not a huge one, but a mistake nonetheless. The kind of baseball discussion point that has been going on since time immemorial.

 

Back to my original point, I hope I have finally been clear that nobody claims Molitor or the Twins are actively hoping Meyer will fail.

[USAFChief]

I think what we mostly have is a good number of posters who have a lot of posts invested in the idea thatMeyer is an answer, and look for people to blame when he shows himself nowhere near ready to pitch in a MLB rotation.

[Mr. Brooks]

I think what we mostly have is a good number of posters who have a lot of posts invested in the idea thatMeyer is an answer, and look for people to blame when he shows himself nowhere near ready to pitch in a MLB rotation.

Chief, he cruised through 2 innings, then ran into some trouble in the third, in part at least, due to some awful umpiring and defense.

This was his first career start!

He hasn't been given even close to enough opportunity to "show" anything, good or bad.

The guy has 7 mlb innings pitched. Seven innings.

 

Chief, how would you say Meyer and Berrios compared in their respective first career starts?

How about May's first career start?

 

I don't know where this idea comes from that you can call a guy a bust after 7 innings.

[nytwinsfan]

 

I think what we mostly have is a good number of posters who have a lot of posts invested in the idea thatMeyer is an answer, and look for people to blame when he shows himself nowhere near ready to pitch in a MLB rotation.

Serious question. Did Jose Berrios show himself "near ready to pitch in a MLB rotation" when he gave up 5 runs in 4 innings on 2 BB and HBP on April 27th, or when he gave up 5 BB in 5 innings on May 2?

[USAFChief]

Serious question. Did Jose Berrios show himself "near ready to pitch in a MLB rotation" when he gave up 5 runs in 4 innings on 2 BB and HBP on April 27th, or when he gave up 5 BB in 5 innings on May 2?

I'm not sure why we're discussing Berrios in this thread, but IMO, yes...Berrios is much closer to being a viable MLB starter. He can repeat his mechanics, he'll settle down and locate the ball, and he'll be able to do that consistently.

 

Meyer is half a decade older and can do none of that.

[USAFChief]

Chief, he cruised through 2 innings, then ran into some trouble in the third, in part at least, due to some awful umpiring and defense.

This was his first career start!

He hasn't been given even close to enough opportunity to "show" anything, good or bad.

The guy has 7 mlb innings pitched. Seven innings.

Chief, how would you say Meyer and Berrios compared in their respective first career starts?

How about May's first career start?

I don't know where this idea comes from that you can call a guy a bust after 7 innings.

I would not describe the first two innings as 'cruising." He gave up no runs, but showed zero ability to locate anything. He used 66 pitches to get 8 outs.

 

And for the record, he does not have 7 innings of history. He has 5 years and 450 IP of professional history.

[Mr. Brooks]

I would not describe the first two innings as 'cruising." He gave up no runs, but showed zero ability to locate anything. He used 66 pitches to get 8 outs.

 

And for the record, he does not have 7 innings of history. He has 5 years and 450 IP of professional history.

7 mlb innings.

If we are using his milb stats then your argument makes even less sense, as they are pretty damn good, yes even including last year.

[Riverbrian]

I agree with Chief. His command is very questionable and I also think that Meyer should get more chances down the road. 

 

I don't believe that he cruised through 2 innings. He threw a lot of pitches and a few of them were really fantastic. Kinda like the golfer who hits one amazing shot to save par after he hit the ball in the rough and the sand trap.

 

In my opinion. For whatever reason... Meyer seemed to have less rope then say Berrios. 

 

I'm guessing but I don't think Molitor is going to have the same mindset as some of our TD Posters. I don't think Molitor feels that the season is over. I think Molitor is trying to win games and make the playoffs and he should feel that way and Meyer doesn't have that much rope.  

 

I'm also guessing that when Meyer got into trouble in the third. He got Milone up and had made up his mind that Milone was going in immediately once ready. Meyer just happened to get a couple of outs in the meantime. I feel Molitor had already made the decision by that time and Meyer just didn't have that much rope. 

 

It can't be surprise that he didn't have rope when you look at how Meyer had been used since his call up. 

 

Meyer is 8 on the depth chart and I think that's about right. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I would not describe the first two innings as 'cruising." He gave up no runs, but showed zero ability to locate anything. He used 66 pitches to get 8 outs.

That's a little unfair -- the poster described the first two innings, you reply as if to refute his description of the first two innings, and then you include Meyer's pitch count from the third inning where we all admit he struggled a bit.

 

Meyer threw 36 pitches during the first two innings.  Maybe not exactly "cruising" but not unusual either, and certainly acceptable given the results of those innings.  Nolasco threw 31 pitches during his first two innings Sunday.  After two innings, Berrios' pitch count has sat at 37 and 42 for his first two starts.

 

After 3 innings on Monday night, Berrios' pitch count was 61.  And that was with the benefit of a double play on the last pitch.  Is 66 pitches for 8 outs that much different?  Then Berrios settled down for perhaps his quickest inning yet in the 4th, facing the Astros 6-7-8 hitters starting with Preston Tucker -- the exact hitter and lineup spots that Molitor pulled Meyer before.

Edited May 4, 2016 by spycake

[jokin]

 

I agree with Chief. His command is very questionable and I also think that Meyer should get more chances down the road. 

 

 

 

So you don't agree with Chief, then? Er, I'm confused by the multitude of mixed messages here..

[Riverbrian]

 

So you don't agree with Chief, then? Er, I'm confused by the multitude of mixed messages here..

 

I just tacked on a point that even if I had some criticisms of Meyer's Command last night... I look forward to seeing him again on the Minnesota mound. 

 

The situation is obviously complicated. I'm willing to bet that inside the Twins organization... a debate similar to the debate being held on TD is taking place. Some think Starter... Some Think Reliever... Some Think Patience... Some Think he's old. 

 

I just want to say that I agree with Chief... His wonderful two innings produced decent results but they were dancing on a cliff in my opinion. I also believe the Castro Homer was an easy F7 in any other park and maybe things would have been different if it would have been an F7 but he followed it up with two walks and a double and a passed ball and I think Molitor made up his mind during that sequence and once Milone was ready... That was it. The Two outs made while Milone was warming was just something that happened while Molitor was thinking to himself... Is he ready yet... Is he ready yet... He's ready... OK... I'm putting him in. 

 

Honestly... I'm more interested in how the organization has handled itself since the 16 inning game in DC and Meyer has been a major part of that. Molitor's use of Meyer tells me a story. Molitor's use of Kepler and Polanco tells me a story. Molitor's' use of Dozier also tells me a story. 

 

The Twins are just in a weird place right now.

[Mr. Brooks]

 

I'm guessing but I don't think Molitor is going to have the same mindset as some of our TD Posters. I don't think Molitor feels that the season is over. I think Molitor is trying to win games and make the playoffs and he should feel that way and Meyer doesn't have that much rope.

 

 

If Molitor really believes that, then he needs to be fired, immediately.

This team has ZERO chance to make the playoffs at this point.

They'd need to play way over their talent level, with no hiccups, the rest of the way, just to get back to .500.

To make the playoffs, after this start, they'd likely have to be the best team in baseball from this point forward.

It's time to start playing for next year.

Throwing away next year too, in the name of false hope this year, would be the worst thing they can do at this point.

[Riverbrian]

 

If Molitor really believes that, then he needs to be fired, immediately.
This team has ZERO chance to make the playoffs at this point.
They'd need to play way over their talent level, with no hiccups, the rest of the way, just to get back to .500.
To make the playoffs, after this start, they'd likely have to be the best team in baseball from this point forward.
It's time to start playing for next year.
Throwing away next year too, in the name of false hope this year, would be the worst thing they can do at this point.

 

I couldn't disagree with you more. If a Manager believed that a team has zero chance on May 4. Then they should be fired immediately. 

 

The Texas Rangers were 9-16 on May 4, 2015

 

I'd be more worried about Molitor if he came off a season where his team was in it to the last weekend and looked at the guys and said. "You can't do that again". 

[USAFChief]

 

I couldn't disagree with you more. If a Manager believed that a team has zero chance on May 4. Then they should be fired immediately. 

 

The Texas Rangers were 9-16 on May 4, 2015

 

I'd be more worried about Molitor if he came off a season where his team was in it to the last weekend and looked at the guys and said. "You can't do that again". 

concur.

 

And I might be in the minority, but I really don't want to watch a team that gives up on the season on May 4th.

 

I expect a MLB team to try to win.  Every.  Single.  Game.  

 

If you want to run out a AAA lineup in late September against another team also running out a AAA lineup, fine.  I guess I can live with that.  And I can understand playing some youth the last couple months of a season if that makes sense.

 

But I do expect more from the organization than throwing up it's collective hands in early May and pretending that's about 2017, and not about just plain having no idea how to make the present any better than it is.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I couldn't disagree with you more. If a Manager believed that a team has zero chance on May 4. Then they should be fired immediately. 

 

The Texas Rangers were 9-16 on May 4, 2015

The more accurate comparison would be number of games rather than date.  The Twins have played 27 games, and are 11 games out of first and 7 games out of the second wild card.  After 27 games, the 2015 Rangers were 11-16, 6.5 games out of first and 3.5 games out of the second wild card (interestingly enough, the second wild card spot was shared by the Twins at that point in the season!).

 

I'd guess some team in a more comparable position to the Twins has also bounced back to make the playoffs.  Obviously the odds are long, and it would be interesting to research.

 

Of course, back to the topic at hand, I don't think sitting Meyer in an emergency reliever role for a week, and then subbing Milone for him, don't really make a meaningful difference in our 2016 competitiveness.

[jokin]

 

concur.

 

And I might be in the minority, but I really don't want to watch a team that gives up on the season on May 4th.

 

I expect a MLB team to try to win.  Every.  Single.  Game.  

 

If you want to run out a AAA lineup in late September against another team also running out a AAA lineup, fine.  I guess I can live with that.  And I can understand playing some youth the last couple months of a season if that makes sense.

 

But I do expect more from the organization than throwing up it's collective hands in early May and pretending that's about 2017, and not about just plain having no idea how to make the present any better than it is.

 

If this is what you believe (and I will admit that I too am fond of winning over losing), then you have to be contented with giving heavy playing time to guys who will most certainly not be part of the future, and also not part of the solution to the Twins "winning" dilemma. 

 

The sooner they can cut the ties with the pieces that don't fit into the future, the sooner we can all get on with the grooming process with the pieces that do fit into the future. It's hard to know who it is that fits for certain if they aren't here playing. And that will more than likely mean more losses than we'd like- but that's in all likelihood the necessary cure to the dilemma.

Edited May 4, 2016 by jokin

[Mr. Brooks]

concur.

 

And I might be in the minority, but I really don't want to watch a team that gives up on the season on May 4th.

 

I expect a MLB team to try to win. Every. Single. Game.

 

If you want to run out a AAA lineup in late September against another team also running out a AAA lineup, fine. I guess I can live with that. And I can understand playing some youth the last couple months of a season if that makes sense.

 

But I do expect more from the organization than throwing up it's collective hands in early May and pretending that's about 2017, and not about just plain having no idea how to make the present any better than it is.

If a team plays every game with only winning that game in mind, with no thought towards the future, how will they ever develop players for the future?

Well, there is one way. They could go out and spend 250 million per year building a team completely through free agency, but that is never going to happen here.

You can only learn so much at AAA, and for 99 percent of prospects, no amount of minor league development is going to make them better than the guy they are replacing on day 1.

So, how would any of our prospects ever get mlb playing time?

[USAFChief]

If a team plays every game with only winning that game in mind, with no thought towards the future, how will they ever develop players for the future?

Well, there is one way. They could go out and spend 250 million per year building a team completely through free agency, but that is never going to happen here.

You can only learn so much at AAA, and for 99 percent of prospects, no amount of minor league development is going to make them better than the guy they are replacing on day 1.

So, how would any of our prospects ever get mlb playing time?

I prefer a team puts a minor leaguer in the lineup when he forces his way into it. When he's better than the player he replaces, or likely soon will be.

 

I don't like letting clearly inferior players lose games in the big leagues in the hope they might someday be better. Right now, I doubt Alex Meyer helps the Twins win more games.

 

I would, for example, let Buxton play CF for the Twins, because I think he's better than Santana, or soon will be.

 

I wouldn't pay much attention to 2017, much less the years after that. It's difficult to predict next week in baseball, much less next year. Thinking you can plan 3, 5 years ahead is folly.

[Mr. Brooks]

I prefer a team puts a minor leaguer in the lineup when he forces his way into it. When he's better than the player he replaces, or likely soon will be.

 

I don't like letting clearly inferior players lose games in the big leagues in the hope they might someday be better. Right now, I doubt Alex Meyer helps the Twins win more games.

 

I would, for example, let Buxton play CF for the Twins, because I think he's better than Santana, or soon will be.

 

I wouldn't pay much attention to 2017, much less the years after that. It's difficult to predict next week in baseball, much less next year. Thinking you can plan 3, 5 years ahead is folly.

Well, both times in my lifetime that the Twins have pulled themselves out of oblivion, the mid 80's, which led to 2 WS titles, and the early 2000's, which led to several division titles, they did so by taking their lumps with young players probably didn't "deserve" to be in the majors.

 

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement, in that I don't believe it's possible to rebuild in the way you suggest.

It's my opinion that a few intermittent .500 seasons are their ceiling until they embrace a full youth movement.

[Linus]

I prefer a team puts a minor leaguer in the lineup when he forces his way into it. When he's better than the player he replaces, or likely soon will be.

 

I don't like letting clearly inferior players lose games in the big leagues in the hope they might someday be better. Right now, I doubt Alex Meyer helps the Twins win more games.

 

I would, for example, let Buxton play CF for the Twins, because I think he's better than Santana, or soon will be.

 

I wouldn't pay much attention to 2017, much less the years after that. It's difficult to predict next week in baseball, much less next year. Thinking you can plan 3, 5 years ahead is folly.

Thank you this. Molitor job is to win games now, not develop minor leaguers. You get one baseball season per year and you fight like hell for each game at least until July.

[Mr. Brooks]

Thank you this. Molitor job is to win games now, not develop minor leaguers. You get one baseball season per year and you fight like hell for each game at least until July.

Why July?

If you think that the mlb club should always try to win, on principle, why should they stop in July?

And if you think it's okay for an mlb team to play for the future, once it's obvious that it's not a playoff team, then why wait until July?

[jimmer]

 

Why July?
If you think that the mlb club should always try to win, on principle, why should they stop in July?
And if you think it's okay for an mlb team to play for the future, once it's obvious that it's not a playoff team, then why wait until July?

great post.