Article: Roster Shuffle: Buxton And Kepler Out, Meyer And Santana In

[old nurse]

 

Who would they swap Murphy for? They just gave away their only decent upper minor league catcher to the Tigers, because... Well, no one is really sure why they put him on waivers, but the fact remains that Hicks is gone, leaving a scrap heap of catchers that would not be much better than Murphy.

Seattle DFA'd him, the Twins did the same.  After 4 years of people complaining od Drew Butera could you explain why people are upset the Twins let someone go who would make a team miss Drew Butera

[jimmer]

 

My apologies. I see that the 3 from yesterday had not been updated. 51% is correct.

If you go by by plate appearances not at bats.  24Ks in 49 PA.  That's a hair less than 50%. Either way, horrible for sure.

[TheLeviathan]

Seattle DFA'd him, the Twins did the same.  After 4 years of people complaining od Drew Butera could you explain why people are upset the Twins let someone go who would make a team miss Drew Butera

It's not necessarily the player, it's the stupidity of doing anything to make way for a guy who retires hours later. It just looks so bungled.

[mikelink45]

Terry wants to prove his trades are good so Meyer instead of Berrios.  Catcher a mess, bullpen a mess, the best option for 3B stubbornly kept in RF.  Did I miss something?  I thought we had an off season to figure out things.

[Platoon]

What's a gong show?

The greatest TV show ever broadcast in history. Or the worst. There doesn't seem a middle ground!

[Platoon]

Seattle DFA'd him, the Twins did the same.  After 4 years of people complaining od Drew Butera could you explain why people are upset the Twins let someone go who would make a team miss Drew Butera

You apparently haven't watched our catchers this year?

[Minniman]

 

Get Buxton to work on bunting

 

How about they get him to work on hitting first?

 

You can't make a successful MLB career out of being a good bunter.

 

Unless you are Ron Washington.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

If Murphy chose to go home over a call to the bigs, he should go on the DL and have his head examined instead.  I don't think it matters however, because that sort of rogue out of nowhere refusal to earn Major League money is so unpredictable I can't fault the organization for not planning for that.

I think you are missing the point.  Sure, it's likely that Murphy surprised us with his retirement, but why did we want to add Murphy to this team anyway?  A player who was already cut once, found few takers, and looked pretty toasty at AAA?

 

 

It's not all that.  It's the "Danny Santana shouldn't be on the team" the "Duffey should get sent down" even though he's injured and he can't, the JR Murphy needs to be sent down or start, the Twins have no plan at CF despite still have 2 capable CF's on the roster, with 2 young ones sent down, accusations that are unnecessarily piling on.  There's lots to criticize.  You can even criticize going into a game with a 2 man bench, but it's not fair to ignore 3 IP by Gibson, Tyler Duffey being hurt, but not bad enough to DL  him, Santana being hurt but not bad enough to DL, and 16 innings the day before.  Santana is the most obvious move, 15 day DL would be taking away 2-3 starts with the most obvious replacement nursing a bruised shoulder.  I'm fine waiting an additional day or two in order to see how those 2 injuries progress before making a decision for the next 2 weeks.  I don't think not having Mastro or Beresford or ABWII or even a recalled Polanco or Kepler makes much difference for the next 2 days.  If ONLY we could have pinch hit... we'll say Polanco tonight, man this game would be so different...  Not buying it.  I'm not saying there isn't room for valid criticism, but there's also room for valid defense.

 

Huh?  You're talking about a lot of stuff I've never written on here, and certainly aren't the dominant themes of this thread.

 

Here's an example of how a 2-man bench can hurt you: last night our bench was Rosario and the backup catcher.  Rosario has a PH HR this year, and our starting catcher's performance screams for a pinch hitter in late innings, but guess what?  Pinch hit Rosario for the catcher, and you have ZERO position players on the bench. Zero.  So, as resistant as Molitor may have been to that idea before, it's an absolute impossibility now.

[SweetOne69]

 

Do you have a link? I don't think it is quite true. I think they could demote him, but if they found he was injured at AAA, they would have to retroactively put him on the MLB DL.

I don't think every player to get demoted has to pass a physical examination first.

 

Here is the link:

http://www.twincities.com/2016/04/25/minnesota-twins-veteran-of-david-murphy-asks-for-release/

It is the  last paragraph

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Here is the link:

http://www.twincities.com/2016/04/25/minnesota-twins-veteran-of-david-murphy-asks-for-release/

It is the  last paragraph

Thanks.  Interesting.  Here's the paragraph in question:

 

"Right-hander Tyler Duffey, knocked out of Sunday’s start after taking a line drive off his throwing shoulder, went through all his normal arm exercises on Monday but the Twins trainers wouldn’t let him play catch. According to the Collective Bargaining Agreement, he can’t be optioned back to the minors until he fully recovers from the bruising on the surface of his shoulder."

 

As you can imagine, though, the CBA says nothing that specific, so I suspect this was the author's inference.  The CBA is obviously much more general: "Players who are injured and not able to play may not be assigned to a Minor League club."

 

But I've never heard of a player being kept in the majors until he is deemed healthy so he can be optioned.  However, I have heard of players optioned who later had the option rescinded after being found unhealthy enough to play, and were retroactively placed on the MLB DL and awarded back pay and service time.  It doesn't even require a grievance, teams seem quite willing and able to do this as necessary.  A simple Google search for "baseball option rescinded disabled list" yields multiple results:

 

Neil Ramirez, 2014 Cubs

http://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/546120

 

Tyler Olson, 2015 Mariners

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/123392352/seattle-mariners-tyler-olson-placed-on-15-day-dl-option-rescinded

 

Cesar Puello, 2014 Mets

http://justmets.mlblogs.com/2015/04/06/mets-rescind-outright-assignment-of-cesar-puello-placed-on-the-15-day-dl/

 

Rafael Montero, 2015 Mets

http://risingapple.com/2015/04/30/mets-news-rafael-montero-to-dl-with-rotator-cuff-inflammation/

 

Jhoulys Chacin, 2012 Rockies

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/2012-05-07-113590609_x.htm

 

I think the Twins are just disappointingly "cool" with wasting roster spots on players "in limbo" for no discernible benefit, unfortunately.

[davidc3915]

If the end result was Buxton and Kepler in AAA, maybe they should have kept Carlos Quentin?

[DJL44]

 

If the end result was Buxton and Kepler in AAA, maybe they should have kept Carlos Quentin?

 

Give him a call. He's not doing much at the moment and the Twins have an open roster spot.

[Minniman]

St. Paul Pioneer Press:

 

“His numbers weren’t pretty but he took decent at-bats the last couple games,” Twins general manager Terry Ryan said. “He played a decent outfield. He was healthy. He can still play.”

 

Murphy played in 10 games and received 36 at-bats for Rochester, playing mostly corner outfield. Ryan was on hand to watch Murphy play a handful of games last week.

 

In fact, the GM was so encouraged he tried to outright Triple-A catcher John Hicks off the 40-man roster in advance of a Murphy promotion.Instead, the Detroit Tigers claimed Hicks off waivers and the spot remains open for now.

 

 

Ryan lost Hicks to promote a last gasp outfielder hitting .194 for the Red Wings.

 

We have such a great GM.

 

[Ncgo4]

Didn't we all spend 3 months this off-season discussing how there was no plan?  Pats everyone on the back, good work guys

We had no plan and we executed with perfection!

[Jham]

 

I think you are missing the point.  Sure, it's likely that Murphy surprised us with his retirement, but why did we want to add Murphy to this team anyway?  A player who was already cut once, found few takers, and looked pretty toasty at AAA?

 

 

 

Huh?  You're talking about a lot of stuff I've never written on here, and certainly aren't the dominant themes of this thread.

 

Here's an example of how a 2-man bench can hurt you: last night our bench was Rosario and the backup catcher.  Rosario has a PH HR this year, and our starting catcher's performance screams for a pinch hitter in late innings, but guess what?  Pinch hit Rosario for the catcher, and you have ZERO position players on the bench. Zero.  So, as resistant as Molitor may have been to that idea before, it's an absolute impossibility now.

Sorry Spycake.  I wasn't trying to single out your postings.  Just the 7 pages of mostly revisionist history posted to prove points or validate criticism without acknowledging alternative theories or arguments.  As I've stated there's plenty to criticize without having to embellish or spin.  

Regarding the short bench, all I want is for people to acknowledge the horrible position we were in by having the short starts and long games.  The call for more pitching makes sense, or is at least defensible.  Trying to get an extra start or 2 out of (arguably) our best starter at the expense of a short bench for a game or 2 makes sense, or again, is at least defensible.  

I get the short bench handicap argument.  Perhaps it would have helped yesterday, although I doubt Molitor pinch hits for our catcher more than maybe once before rosters expand this whole season.  But again, you're failing to consider alternatives.  For instance, if we don't call up Meyer, perhaps Molitor doesn't feel comfortable pulling Milone in the 5th with 2 on and 2 out.  Maybe he tries to squeeze an extra hitter or 4.  Ask me at that moment if I'd rather have depth on the bench or in the pen, and I'm taking the pen every time.  In that way, the unpopular roster move may have won us a game.  Perhaps in 3 days, Santana steps up and throws a gem and then again 5 days after that.  I'm not saying that will happen.  Maybe Santana throws a bullpen, starts in 4 days, tweaks his back and ends up on the DL anyway.  

I think most of the steam really just boils down to an apparent rumor of a swapping of David Murphy for Maximillion Kepler.  I don't think it's a coincidence that Max was sent down the day after he made Escobar sprint 30 yards to complete a Willie Mays style catch while he jogged in with his glove under his arm to see the play occur at his feet.  Youth is great, but effort and professionalism matter, no matter what anyone says.
 

[Mike Sixel]

He didn't even use Meyer.........so not sure what difference that made. He also didn't ever use Polanco or Kepler.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Regarding the short bench, all I want is for people to acknowledge the horrible position we were in by having the short starts and long games.  The call for more pitching makes sense, or is at least defensible.  Trying to get an extra start or 2 out of (arguably) our best starter at the expense of a short bench for a game or 2 makes sense, or again, is at least defensible.

How does carrying 6 starting pitchers (our starting five plus Duffey) help with that?  That's why the Twins had 14 pitchers last night, not because they added bullpen help.

[Jham]

 

How does carrying 6 starting pitchers (our starting five plus Duffey) help with that?  That's why the Twins had 14 pitchers last night, not because they added bullpen help.

The Twins are, hopefully, betting on either Duffey or Santana being able to go this trip through the rotation.  They don't want to DL Santana, and they CAN'T send Duffey down.  If they DL Duffey, and end up having to DL Santana, then they feel having to start the clock on Berrios, or rely on Meyer or Dean for 2 weeks would hurt the team more than having to wait a day or two to track injuries.  I'm not positive they didn't make the right choice.  Realize it's a gamble either way is all I'm asking.  Last night, the gamble paid off.  Yet still the relentless criticism, once again, mostly, imho, based on anger over a rumored DMurphy - Max Kepler swap, which in my mind is again, entirely defensible, if not somewhat frustrating to most Twins fans.  

[Mike Sixel]

 

The Twins are, hopefully, betting on either Duffey or Santana being able to go this trip through the rotation.  They don't want to DL Santana, and they CAN'T send Duffey down.  If they DL Duffey, and end up having to DL Santana, then they feel having to start the clock on Berrios, or rely on Meyer or Dean for 2 weeks would hurt the team more than having to wait a day or two to track injuries.  I'm not positive they didn't make the right choice.  Realize it's a gamble either way is all I'm asking.  Last night, the gamble paid off.  Yet still the relentless criticism, once again, mostly, imho, based on anger over a rumored DMurphy - Max Kepler swap, which in my mind is again, entirely defensible, if not somewhat frustrating to most Twins fans.  

 

IMO, it is a typical gamble on the low side, rather than the high side. A very risk averse move. There is no reason Berrios or Meyer can't start a game or two. There is no reason to worry about service time for a pitcher, he's either going to get hurt, or super expensive. 

 

They signed a 29 yo DH, and went with mostly veterans outside the OF, they are clearly trying to win this year. Worrying about 6/7 years from now, that's not consistent with the rest of their moves. Maybe that's the problem here.

[Jham]

 

IMO, it is a typical gamble on the low side, rather than the high side. A very risk averse move. There is no reason Berrios or Meyer can't start a game or two. There is no reason to worry about service time for a pitcher, he's either going to get hurt, or super expensive. 

 

They signed a 29 yo DH, and went with mostly veterans outside the OF, they are clearly trying to win this year. Worrying about 6/7 years from now, that's not consistent with the rest of their moves. Maybe that's the problem here.

Now this I can agree with!  IE disagreeing with a plan is different from saying that there is no plan.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The Twins are, hopefully, betting on either Duffey or Santana being able to go this trip through the rotation.  They don't want to DL Santana, and they CAN'T send Duffey down.

Again, I don't think this is true.  There are lots of examples of teams optioning pitchers who are possibly injured, then later rescinding the option to retroactively put them on the MLB DL when the injury is confirmed.  See my post listing them upthread:

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/22174-article-roster-shuffle-buxton-and-kepler-out-meyer-and-santana-in/page-7?do=findComment&comment=469999

 

It appears the Twins want to keep Duffey for other reasons, even though he can't pitch the next couple games, or that they possibly want to scratch/delay Santana's next start without putting him on the DL and they only want Duffey to replace him.  Either one seems like a pretty suspect reason to leave your bench and even your bullpen (assuming they are looking to debut Meyer this season in mop-up duty) short for a series.

[USAFChief]

 

The Twins are, hopefully, betting on either Duffey or Santana being able to go this trip through the rotation.  They don't want to DL Santana, and they CAN'T send Duffey down.  If they DL Duffey, and end up having to DL Santana, then they feel having to start the clock on Berrios, or rely on Meyer or Dean for 2 weeks would hurt the team more than having to wait a day or two to track injuries.  I'm not positive they didn't make the right choice.  Realize it's a gamble either way is all I'm asking.  Last night, the gamble paid off.  Yet still the relentless criticism, once again, mostly, imho, based on anger over a rumored DMurphy - Max Kepler swap, which in my mind is again, entirely defensible, if not somewhat frustrating to most Twins fans.  

I think the relentless criticism is based on looking around the league for the past 50 yrs and not seeing other teams be put in a similar position often, if at all.

 

There's no defense for a major league team to be in this roster position, particularly before May 1st.  None.  It's just...bad management.  

[Jham]

 

Again, I don't think this is true.  There are lots of examples of teams optioning pitchers who are possibly injured, then later rescinding the option to retroactively put them on the MLB DL when the injury is confirmed.  See my post listing them upthread:

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/22174-article-roster-shuffle-buxton-and-kepler-out-meyer-and-santana-in/page-7?do=findComment&comment=469999

 

It appears the Twins want to keep Duffey for other reasons, even though he can't pitch the next couple games, or that they possibly want to scratch/delay Santana's next start without putting him on the DL and they only want Duffey to replace him.  Either one seems like a pretty suspect reason to leave your bench and even your bullpen (assuming they are looking to debut Meyer this season in mop-up duty) short for a series.

Agree on the rationale for keeping Santana and Duffey,  Disagree somewhat on the suspectness.  If we don't add someone today or tomorrow, I'll agree.

I like your point on Duffey, because it brings up another possible explanation...  That the Pohlads want to wait to option Duffey so they don't have to pay the full 15 days of MLB pay.  Seems far fetched but the history of this organization...  

Unrelated, how long has Plouffe been out?  Isn't the DL retroactive?  Like how many additional days of Plouffe are we missing by not DLing him?  To me, that's the bigger beef if it's only a couple games.

[Mr. Brooks]

Uh Plouffe is already on the DL.

[Jham]

 

I think the relentless criticism is based on looking around the league for the past 50 yrs and not seeing other teams be put in a similar position often, if at all.

 

There's no defense for a major league team to be in this roster position, particularly before May 1st.  None.  It's just...bad management.  

But we haven't even seen anything play out.  Even though we didn't use Meyer, I'm sure Molitor managed differently knowing he is available, possibly won us a game we would have lost.  I want to see if Santana can come back within a couple days before I call anything "indefensible".  I'm willing to see this play out before I call it bad management.  Who knows, 2 good starts from Santana, Plouffe in the lineup against the Tigers, and we might call it good management.

[USAFChief]

 

But we haven't even seen anything play out.  Even though we didn't use Meyer, I'm sure Molitor managed differently knowing he is available, possibly won us a game we would have lost.  I want to see if Santana can come back within a couple days before I call anything "indefensible".  I'm willing to see this play out before I call it bad management.  Who knows, 2 good starts from Santana, Plouffe in the lineup against the Tigers, and we might call it good management.

I think I can guarantee we won't see Plouffe against the Tigers.  IIRC he was placed on the DL on Apr 17, meaning he can't be activated until May 2.

[Jham]

 

Uh Plouffe is already on the DL.

Ok, well that was the one way I could say we would certainly need to adjust 25 man.  I think then, our options, then are pretty limited, and I really don't understand the outrage.
 

[Riverbrian]

 

Ok, well that was the one way I could say we would certainly need to adjust 25 man.  I think then, our options, then are pretty limited, and I really don't understand the outrage.
 

 

I can't speak for the others... but part of my outrage... actually concern... I'm really not outraged.  

 

My concern is that that they shouldn't be in this position where they have no decent options. It was just Santana and Plouffe on the DL and it's just Plouffe on the DL now. 

 

The well went dry too quick and too easy. 

 

[Jham]

 

I think I can guarantee we won't see Plouffe against the Tigers.  IIRC he was placed on the DL on Apr 17, meaning he can't be activated until May 2.

As stated, Plouffe's trip to the DL only further limits available moves.  Either DL Santana for an extra bench guy (arguably option Duffey who would almost certainly and immediately be retroactively moved to the DL, I think he just shows the video and wins), or try to make due with either a desperately short bench or an over-taxed and already fragile pen.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

As stated, Plouffe's trip to the DL only further limits available moves.  Either DL Santana for an extra bench guy (arguably option Duffey who would almost certainly and immediately be retroactively moved to the DL, I think he just shows the video and wins), or try to make due with either a desperately short bench or an over-taxed and already fragile pen.  

I don't know if there is anything for Duffey to argue or "win" -- this situation is common enough, I doubt it rises to the level of grievance.  If the pitcher can't take his next turn in the minor leagues, the team rescinds the option at that point and puts him on the MLB DL retroactively.

 

What they generally don't do is carry him in limbo on the MLB roster, unavailable to pitch when you need fresh arms, and with a 2 man bench, waiting to option him once his bruise heals up.