Article: Nick Punto And Miguel Sano: Getting The Good To Outweigh The Bad

[ScrapTheNickname]

I have an idea:

 

MLB should go NFL on us - 9 DHs.

More jobs for more players.

Better quality on the field.

I kid. But do I?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Torii Hunter was one of the 7 best RF last year?

*scatches head*

 

Um... Yes?

 

No. That defies logic.

[Thrylos]

Re Hunter:  

Among 18 RFs with qualifying PAs, he was:

 

7th UZR, 14th DRS, 7th Fangraphs Def, 14th Plus/Minus, 14th FP, 17th RZR, 14th Out of zone plays,

 

So, depending on how you are counting...

[jorgenswest]

I think it is better to look at RF defense as a team and then look at the individual contributions. The Twins right field defense ranked 17th-22nd in the various measures.

 

Hunter contributed 72% of the innings and Rosario 18%. Robinson, Hicks, Arcia and Kepler combined for 10%. Overall the defense in right field was adequate but not an asset.

[Teflon]

Speaking of "Outweigh"...

 

Sano looks like he's getting to a tipping point athletically from a sheer mass perspective. His attempted slide into 2B in game 2 of the Orioles series was executed it as if he thought he was a 180-pounder and was expecting the physics to work the same way. Instead of a normal sized man sliding, however, a 270 pound man dug in to the ground and was jolted to a stop that looked like it would dislocate a knee. I haven't see anything that ugly since Kent Hrbek dug a three foot chunk out of the Target Field sod trying to slide after a foul ball in a Legends game.

 

The Twins desperately need to pair Sano with a live-in nutritionist and personal trainer.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Teflon

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

a 270 pound man dug in to the ground and was jolted to a stop that looked like it would dislocate a knee.

 

Update: Schwarber is out for the season. If the Cubs had a dh spot every night, you better believe that wouldn't have happened.

 

Let's not screw this up.

[LaBombo]

 

Anyone notice that Sano got hurt playing 3B a couple of years ago, and he was hurt as a DH last year... Players get hurt sometimes.

 

He's an enormous man learning a very different position, one at which it's routine to run at maximum speed, and three quarters of the time toward either a wall, another wall, or the 100-pounds-lighter other half of the future of the Twins franchise's offense.

 

Yes, Sano could still get hurt playing third, or DHing for that matter, in much the same way that you can still be injured in a car accident while wearing a seat belt.  Don't know about you, but I still wear mine despite its imperfect nature.

 

At any rate, the decision to move Sano to the outfield was an absurdly foolish one of the sort that teams make either when they dread change, when they enforce an arbitrary floor for defensive ability at a given position regardless of offense, or in the Sano vs. Plouffe situation, both.

Edited April 9, 2016 by LaBombo

[LaBombo]

 

I'm amazed at our ability to make up our minds about something before we've seen it.

 

 

 

 

 

Isn't that ability called abstract thought?  I was under the impression that not only is it potentially a fairly valuable skill, it's one of the handful of extraordinarily useful traits that makes us human beings as opposed to just large, hairless, appallingly un-cute lemurs.

 

Take, for example, the mental image of an absolutely enormous young man hurtling at maximum velocity, and yet often at least somewhat blindly, across a portion of the baseball field which to him is more or less the surface of alien world, toward either an immovable wall-like object, or a highly movable, crushable, and incredibly valuable other young man.

 

Not only is it awfully easy to imagine an undesirable outcome, it's potentially extraordinarily beneficial to have done so and then avoided having it actually happen.  And what's more, the entire mental exercise can take place without any knowledge of (let alone concern for) who Trevor Plouffe is.

 

Edited April 9, 2016 by LaBombo

[jokin]

 

Isn't that ability called abstract thought?  I was under the impression that not only is it potentially a fairly valuable skill, it's one of the handful of extraordinarily useful traits that makes human beings as opposed to just large, hairless, appallingly un-cute lemurs.

 

Take, for example, the mental image of an absolutely enormous young man hurtling at maximum velocity, and yet often at least somewhat blindly, across a portion of the baseball field which to him is more or less the surface of alien world, toward either an immovable wall-like object, or a highly movable, crushable, and incredibly valuable other young man.

 

Not only is it incredibly easy to imagine an undesirable outcome, it's potentially extraordinarily beneficial to have done so and then avoided having it actually happen.  And what's more, the entire mental exercise can take place without any knowledge of (let alone concern for) who Trevor Plouffe is.

 

Exrra-terrestrially-ordinary post.

[LaBombo]

 

Exrra-terrestrially-ordinary post.

Thanks!

 

I think.

 

Therefore, I... am?

[jokin]

 

 

He's an enormous man learning a very different position, one at which it's routine to run at maximum speed, and three quarters of the time toward either a wall, another wall, or the 100-pounds-lighter other half of the future of the Twins franchise's offense.

 

Yes, Sano could still get hurt playing third, or DHing for that matter, in much the same way that you can still be injured in a car accident while wearing a seat belt.  Don't know about you, but I still wear mine despite its imperfect nature.

 

At any rate, the decision to move Sano to the outfield was an absurdly foolish one of the sort that teams make either when they dread change, when they enforce an arbitrary floor for defensive ability at a given position regardless of offense, or in the Sano vs. Plouffe situation, both.

 

Can I nominate you right now for Supreme Chancellor of the Federation in order to keep up the good fight for reason and justice?

[LaBombo]

 

Can I nominate you right now for Supreme Chancellor of the Federation in order to keep up the good fight for reason and justice?

Sounds great.  It would look terrific on a resume, and dovetail beautifully with the not-infrequent observation by others, dating all the way back to grade school, that I sometimes appear to be "in a world of my own". 

 

And I plead guilty with extenuating circumstances to the science fictiony-ness of that post.  Blame the movie version of Moneyball, in which the late Phillip Seymour Hoffman as a perpetually grumpy Art Howe says of Scott Hatteberg:  "I like him... but I can judge him.   First base is the moon to him."

 

Thanks to that quote, every time I've watched Sano in the outfield I've found myself wondering where his spacesuit is.

 

 

PS    I'm only accepting your nomination if you'll agree to be consigliere. Talking me out of bad ideas is sure to be a full-time job, an edict against Sano in the outfield being the first.

Edited April 9, 2016 by LaBombo

[John Bonnes]

La Bombo,

 

I love you're writing style. I can't reply to all you posts, and I wish I could, but a much more important point is that you should write. I want you to have a blog here. I think it's going to be great. I'll possibly disagree with it vehemently, like I do this Sano thing, but u think it will be great.

 

I think most of the Sano in RF angst is rhetorical, which is super fun and super popular, but ultimately at odds with an honest, objective, analytical evaluation. If I had to explain it rhetorically, I'd go with this:

 

Sano is superhuman. That's why we have trouble understanding how a 270(+?) is gonna be able to handle this. But if you watch, he is handling it. So relax.

 

As for the questions earlier about Hunters defense, I'll give more detail & then give the obvious conclusion. Detail: from each AL team I pulled the RFer w the most innings. Then I sorted them by their UZR. (Hunter had a positive UZR.) Obvious conclusion - actually I'll get be two of them:

 

1) Hunter was not as bad in RF as you expected but you made up your mind early and didn't notice because DEFENSE IN RF DOESNT MATTER.

 

2) Hunter was still bad in RF, but better than average because most RFers aren't very good defensively, because DEFENSE IN RF DOESNT MATTER.

[John Bonnes]

BTW, sorry to go all CAP HEAVY. I'll try again: defense in rf doesn't matter. It's where you out the worst, most unathletic person in every baseballish game at every level for all teams in history, except for DH. And Sano is not the least athletic guy on the Twins. He played third base, which us higher on the defensive spectrum. It's all going to be fine.

[Ncgo4]

Sano is big, REALLY big. Possibly the biggest OF ever in MLB. Putting him in right field where he will necessarily be required to run will take a huge toll on his over sized body. I expect him to get injured but at the minimum have it affect his hitting. Until he gets to DH or 1B, I expect him to be a shell of what he was at the plate last year. Thus may just be the dumbest move this year in baseball with the potential to be a disaster. If he blows out a knee look for him to show up next year weighing 320.

[CampQ]

The notion that learning right field will negatively affect Mr. Sano's hitting is an unconvincing assertion. At best it is an unproven assumption, at worst it is junk psychology.

[jimmer]

 

BTW, sorry to go all CAP HEAVY. I'll try again: defense in rf doesn't matter. It's where you out the worst, most unathletic person in every baseballish game at every level for all teams in history, except for DH. And Sano is not the least athletic guy on the Twins. He played third base, which us higher on the defensive spectrum. It's all going to be fine.

Oh my goodness, seriously?  Doesn't matter?

 

This is the major leagues, not little league, softball, etc. Defense matters everywhere.

 

Even in high school, the idea of your worst fielder playing RF is tossed out the window. Your best OF arms played RF, it wasn't where the worst player played.  In the majors, LF or 1B has been where people have been 'hidden'.  There's guys like Manny, Hanley, Delmon, Willingham, etc for LF and a huge line of people for 1B there's no point in even naming them.

 

But again, this is the major leagues.  A bad RF can burn/cost a team big time. Certainly doesn't hurt you any less than a bad LF or 1B.  Might not matter as much as a poor catcher (which we have) or poor MIs, but the idea that RF is where you hide your worst players at higher levels of baseball is false.

Edited April 9, 2016 by jimmer

[USAFChief]

I agree with John...RF defense (actually corner OF) just isn't very important. Most plays are incredibly routine.

[jorgenswest]

BTW, sorry to go all CAP HEAVY. I'll try again: defense in rf doesn't matter. It's where you out the worst, most unathletic person in every baseballish game at every level for all teams in history, except for DH. And Sano is not the least athletic guy on the Twins. He played third base, which us higher on the defensive spectrum. It's all going to be fine.

A take on outfield defense from Ben Lindbergh

 

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/2015-mlb-kansas-city-royals-san-diego-padres-outfield-defense-lessons/

 

Re-examining the defensive spectrum by Jeff Zimmerman

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/re-examining-wars-defensive-spectrum/

[Mr. Brooks]

Yeah this old fashioned belief that corner outfield defense doesn't matter. I guess it's because "range" is something that is hard to quantify with the eye test.

Old school guys see a fly ball drop in for a hit and think, "everyone hustled, nobody dropped the ball or took a bad route, nothing to see here. " When, in fact, a faster outfield catches MANY of those so called routine hits.

How many more teams around the league need to field defenses that make their mediocre starters look like aces and make their poor starters look mediocre before we take note?

There is more to defense than simply catching the ones that are hit right at you.

[ashbury]

I agree with John...RF defense (actually corner OF) just isn't very important. Most plays are incredibly routine.

Also, at the other end of the spectrum, most plays that just fall in as Texas Leaguers, or land in the gap for extra bases, would have done so regardless of the defender.

 

It's a rather narrow band of this spectrum for which defense matters. And it does matter, but among all the things that matter I have come to view it as part of the lower-priority group.

[jimmer]

 

Also, at the other end of the spectrum, most plays that just fall in as Texas Leaguers, or land in the gap for extra bases, would have done so regardless of the defender.

 

It's a rather narrow band of this spectrum for which defense matters. And it does matter, but among all the things that matter I have come to view it as part of the lower-priority group.

Problem is, defense ties in with pitching, which is considered huge.  A quality defense makes a bad rotation look a whole lot better or a bad defense can make a good rotation look worse than it is.  Pitching has a symbiotic relationship with defense.

[Darius]

Punto is a pretty great representation of the Twins in '00s:

 

Good enough at a few things to beat out bad competition for a spot, but never quite talented enough to be taken seriously or take the next step.

[TheLeviathan]

RF defense absolutely matters, especially because bad defense spirals things out of control.  Does RF matter as much as SS?  No, but it sure as hell matters. 

 

I guarantee if you toss me a glove and go out there you're going to eat those words within days.  It matters and the this little Sano experiment is going to prove that.  Unfortunately, not in a way we as Twins fans will appreciate.

[Willihammer]

 

Sano is superhuman. That's why we have trouble understanding how a 270(+?) is gonna be able to handle this. But if you watch, he is handling it. So relax.

Right field?

Are we watching the same guy?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

RF defense absolutely matters, especially because bad defense spirals things out of control.  Does RF matter as much as SS?  No, but it sure as hell matters. 

 

I guarantee if you toss me a glove and go out there you're going to eat those words within days.  It matters and the this little Sano experiment is going to prove that.  Unfortunately, not in a way we as Twins fans will appreciate.

While I agree RF defense matters and you'd embarrass yourself, you are not Miguel Sano. He's a big man but he's an athletic big man.*

 

*this is not a defense of putting Sano in RF, I'm simply withholding outrage until he gets more experience**

 

**the entire way this was handled was insane... If Sano was going to be an outfielder, it should have started in Fall League play***

 

***no more points, just wanted to use three asterisks

[TheLeviathan]

No, I'm not Sano.  But merely being athletic doesn't make one a competent OF.  

 

We are playing a team that just won the WS because they appreciated the opposite of two longstanding baseball memes: bullpens and outfield defense.  Perhaps we should take notes.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

No, I'm not Sano.  But merely being athletic doesn't make one a competent OF.  

 

We are playing a team that just won the WS because they appreciated the opposite of two longstanding baseball memes: bullpens and outfield defense.  Perhaps we should take notes.

You'll get no arguments from me. In 2014 while watching the Royals, I thought... "Damn, this feels a lot like watching the 2000s Twins. I miss that kind of baseball and I think it can succeed."

 

Well, it succeeded. While I think a team can be built on power bats and strikeouts and succeed, give me a contact-happy team with moderate power and good defense any day of the week. It's just my opinion but I think that team is less prone to slumps like the one we're seeing now (where the Twins basically played their opponent straight-up four games in a row but lost every game because if you swing and miss a lot, chances are you'll have streaks where you swing and miss a lot while runners stand on base).

[Steve J]

 

Rather obvious Seth, players do get hurt and I doubt anyone will argue that point. Playing guys out of position likely increases the chances of injury, but that's just my opinion.

 

In the OF, there is always the chance of two people getting injured.  Imaging the inexperienced Sano running into Buxton.  This is Minnesota, this could happen...