Adam LaRoche retires

[Squirrel]

It's been strongly suggested that it was Ventura also, who didn't want to make the policy himself for fear of train-wrecking the clubhouse against him.

Yeah, that's one of the things I wonder about ... how involved was Ventura in the making of this decision.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Sorry, just saw what you underlined in my post. I think the persistent presence of a child in the workplace can clearly affect the workplace environment of others, no? That's not in dispute here, is it?

In a clubhouse? I'm not sure.  The reaction from many of the leaders of the Whitesox clubhouse suggest that it's absurd to believe that anyone complained about Drake -- given that reaction, even if you dismiss it, I don't think we can say that Drake "clearly" affected the workplace for the worse.

[dgwills]

 

Yeah, that's one of the things I wonder about ... how involved was Ventura in the making of this decision.

Surprising to no one with any common sense there were managers and players who were not happy about some weirdo trying to home school his kid in the club house. http://www.si.com/mlb/2016/03/19/adam-drake-laroche-white-sox-players-complained

Sale and LaRoche both behaved like children and look pretty bad to normal people. I can see how making millions to play baseball your whole life could warp your perspective a bit though, so it's understandable.

[Squirrel]

In a clubhouse? I'm not sure.  The reaction from many of the leaders of the Whitesox clubhouse suggest that it's absurd to believe anyone complained about Drake -- given that reaction, even if you dismiss it, I don't think we can say that Drake "clearly" affected the workplace for the worse.

I've only read reports of Sale and Eaton, and Eaton is the players' rep. While there have been some implied others, there were definitely implications that there were some that were not comfortable with it. This issue has been divisive for them and I'm not sure there would be a resolution happy to all.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I've only read reports of Sale and Eaton, and Eaton is the players' rep. While there have been some implied others, there were definitely implications that there were some that were not comfortable with it. This issue has been divisive for them and I'm not sure there would be a resolution happy to all.

Right.  

 

My point is that there's a dispute here about the legitimacy and the source of complaints about Drake. The facts aren't really clear on two points: 1) the nature and specificity of the agreement between LaRouche and the club and 2) the legitimacy and the source of complaints about Drake.  

[PseudoSABR]

 

It's been strongly suggested that it was Ventura also, who didn't want to make the policy himself for fear of train-wrecking the clubhouse against him.

Well, his thinking was backwards if this is the case, by outsourcing the job to Williams it undercut the legitimacy Ventura would have had as clubhouse figure.  IMO, it's Ventura's job to deal with this (not the FO), and had he approached LaRouche instead of Williams, the results may have been different.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well, his thinking was backwards if this is the case, by outsourcing the job to Williams it undercut the legitimacy Ventura would have had as clubhouse figure.  IMO, it's Ventura's job to deal with this (not the FO), and had he approached LaRouche instead of Williams, the results may have been different.

 

Unless Ventura thought it would be this bad or worse if he had tried to do it himself.  He also might have felt unable to do that himself depending upon what the FO agreed to with Laroche upon signing him.  He would have been interjecting himself into a contract situation at that point and opened a whole different can of worms.

 

The bottom line is that it doesn't seem like there was any negotiating with Laroche on this.  So I'm not sure what anyone could have done to alleviate the concerns some seemed to have without also sending Laroche off.

[biggentleben]

How so? If it was in the written contract, I am pretty sure we would have heard about it by now. He would have had an ironclad case for a grievance.

 

And actually, the CBA prohibits verbal side agreements, outside the written contract. That's why LaRoche basically has/had no recourse other than to follow the team's new rules or retire.

 

His union and his agent surely would not have let him retire if the team was violating a term of the written contract.

Once again, based on second hand info from a guy who is admittedly a friend of Adam's, there is a clause in his contract not explicit on the amount of time, but that the kid would be allowed. His understanding when we talked Saturday morning was that Adam was trying to settle with the White Sox to make this go away, but his next step would be filing retirement papers with MLBPA and having them step in to recoup the entire $13M.

[Squirrel]

 

Right.  

 

My point is that there's a dispute here about the legitimacy and the source of complaints about Drake. The facts aren't really clear on two points: 1) the nature and specificity of the agreement between LaRouche and the club and 2) the legitimacy and the source of complaints about Drake.  

On the first I agree with you and is something I've said throughout this thread. So many questions about what we don't know.

 

On the second, however, I'm not sure those who have complained would feel comfortable doing so publicly. Their only recourse was to go to management and remain silent; and given how Sale went ballistic I think they were right to do so privately. Given the divisiveness there is now, what purpose would it serve for those who complained to come forward at this point if not to drive the wedge deeper? Especially if some of the complaints came from on-field staff ... that would make it very difficult for them and the team. The only thing they could do was to complain to upper management as they did and let Williams resolve it and take the heat. The only issue for me isn't that there weren't problems there, because I do believe there were, and I believe there are enough sources that have reported their were, but in how Williams ultimately handled this and timing of it all.

[Squirrel]

 

 

Once again, based on second hand info from a guy who is admittedly a friend of Adam's, there is a clause in his contract not explicit on the amount of time, but that the kid would be allowed. His understanding when we talked Saturday morning was that Adam was trying to settle with the White Sox to make this go away, but his next step would be filing retirement papers with MLBPA and having them step in to recoup the entire $13M.

Ben, those papers were signed and done. When this started happening over a week ago now, players urged LaRoche to think on it, which he did, and then decided the issue wouldn't be resolved to his satisfaction and his understanding of the agreement he had made, so he retired.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/03/adam-laroche-retire-likely-white-sox.html

[biggentleben]

Ben, those papers were signed and done. When this started happening over a week ago now, players urged LaRoche to think on it, which he did, and then decided the issue wouldn't be resolved to his satisfaction and his understanding of the agreement he had made, so he retired.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/03/adam-laroche-retire-likely-white-sox.html

Yes, I acknowledged that earlier. The guy I was talking with very well had not been informed yet by Adam that he'd taken that step as they were filed Friday and I spoke with him Saturday morning.

[Otto von Ballpark]

In a clubhouse? I'm not sure. The reaction from many of the leaders of the Whitesox clubhouse suggest that it's absurd to believe that anyone complained about Drake -- given that reaction, even if you dismiss it, I don't think we can say that Drake "clearly" affected the workplace for the worse.

I am not talking about Drake specifically being a nuisance, that is not really the point here. The point is, one employee was bringing his kid to the workplace every day, against most established custom in the industry. The kid doesn't have to do anything bad to make that an uncomfortable work environment for other employees.

[ewen21]

 

On the first I agree with you and is something I've said throughout this thread. So many questions about what we don't know.

 

On the second, however, I'm not sure those who have complained would feel comfortable doing so publicly. Their only recourse was to go to management and remain silent; and given how Sale went ballistic I think they were right to do so privately. 

Williams could have handled this better, but the point is why did this guy take his privilege so far?  To me it went beyond.  It's workplace.

[ewen21]

 

Call it a privilege, a benefit, a guarantee, an obligation -- it hardly matters, if it's a term of a contract (which is something we still don't know).  

It doesn't matter because I disagree with LaRoche's unreasonable demands IN PRINCIPLE.  The whole premise of bringing a kid to work as much as he did is an abuse and it creates an awkward situation for all involved.  I really could give two bleeps about what the contract says.  To make those kinds of stipulations are over the top.

 

The other thing is you cite a contract which is unknown.  I am saying I don't even care what the contract says. In principle, (absent any consideration of what the contract says) I think this demands were ridiculous if he required his son to be that much of a presence. It's unheard of.  It's BIZARRE

[Han Joelo]

What is bizarre and weird to me is the overwhelming negative reaction towards a 14 year old young man accompanying his father to work.  At a baseball park.  Not a slaughterhouse.  Not a courtroom.  Not Dunder-Mifflin paper sales.  A baseball park.

 

A hundred years ago 90% of the population were farmers (something like that.)  14 year olds then and now not only accompanied their fathers and mothers to work, they worked.  But whatever.  Obviously I am in the vast minority here.  I'm just truly flabbergasted over the indignation people have over this "horrifying" concept of teaching young people experientially.

[h2oface]

A lot of supposing going on here. I can only speak from my own feelings. I would not want a 14 yr old kid (or any kid for that matter) hanging around the clubhouse all the time..... I don't care how great a kid he is. The clubhouse is for the team and the team only, in my opinion. I am not a person that considers this a "workpace", either. It is a specialized type of job, yes, but the clubhouse a very special place, and it is not for wives, and children, and friends......... unless for a special short visit that has been ok'ed by some up front protocol. I just would not want the distraction to be part of my deal as one of the other players. I certainly wouldn't mind it occasionally from any of my teammates, but I would not like it every day, all the time. The clubhouse is a place to have as a player's sanctuary, the home away from home, for those on the team and only those on the team. It would seem that if it is in LaRoche's contract to OK it, then ALL the players' contracts should have it disclosed that it would be happening and that they all agree to it up front, too. If I was a guy that didn't like it, how would I go about expressing that? Probably behind the scenes, as I would not want to draw attention to myself. It is a strange and selfish and goofy situation for LaRoche and Williams to put the whole team in, and I think with LaRoche's fading talent, it is best he be gone anyway. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

What is bizarre and weird to me is the overwhelming negative reaction towards a 14 year old young man accompanying his father to work.  At a baseball park.  Not a slaughterhouse.  Not a courtroom.  Not Dunder-Mifflin paper sales.  A baseball park.

 

A hundred years ago 90% of the population were farmers (something like that.)  14 year olds then and now not only accompanied their fathers and mothers to work, they worked.  But whatever.  Obviously I am in the vast minority here.  I'm just truly flabbergasted over the indignation people have over this "horrifying" concept of teaching young people experientially.

 

You don't see the gigantic difference between those two things?  Back when 14 year olds were apprenticing it was because that was pretty much certain to be their career.  Is Drake certain to be a big leaguer?  If not, what value is this?  And, given the odds of becoming a big leaguer, the answer to both questions is likely - no and "very little"

 

I have no problem with a kid learning to work and experiencing some of what their parents do for a living, but you're advocating a system of apprenticeship we left behind at least 100 years ago. Hell, you can't even be a farmer today with a 13 year old education and a good apprenticeship, we've advanced beyond those days.  

 

Let the kid come during his summer off and experience the ball park and experience things.  But pulling him out of school basically year round to futz around with his father is nothing like what you're describing and, even if it was, apprenticing with a professional baseball player is a ridiculous idea.

[biggentleben]

 

You don't see the gigantic difference between those two things?  Back when 14 year olds were apprenticing it was because that was pretty much certain to be their career.  Is Drake certain to be a big leaguer?  If not, what value is this?  And, given the odds of becoming a big leaguer, the answer to both questions is likely - no and "very little"

 

I have no problem with a kid learning to work and experiencing some of what their parents do for a living, but you're advocating a system of apprenticeship we left behind at least 100 years ago. Hell, you can't even be a farmer today with a 13 year old education and a good apprenticeship, we've advanced beyond those days.  

 

Let the kid come during his summer off and experience the ball park and experience things.  But pulling him out of school basically year round to futz around with his father is nothing like what you're describing and, even if it was, apprenticing with a professional baseball player is a ridiculous idea.

 

I don't know. I gave up playing baseball because it was too much time away from the farm in the summer, where I spent nearly all of my time from about age 8-9 on up helping my dad each day. My classmates frequently would have a missed day of class to help on the farm during the school year throughout even high school, and then your summer was basically dedicated to the farm. So that life still exists plenty, and of all my classmates, 0 have become farmers.

[PseudoSABR]

 

It doesn't matter because I disagree with LaRoche's unreasonable demands IN PRINCIPLE.  The whole premise of bringing a kid to work as much as he did is an abuse and it creates an awkward situation for all involved.  I really could give two bleeps about what the contract says.  To make those kinds of stipulations are over the top.

 

The other thing is you cite a contract which is unknown.  I am saying I don't even care what the contract says. In principle, (absent any consideration of what the contract says) I think this demands were ridiculous if he required his son to be that much of a presence. It's unheard of.  It's BIZARRE

I agree with you in principle.  As much as we wish it should, one's principals can't dictate how management deals with an employee's contractual and workplace issues.  The Whitesox were in the position to keep such a provision out of the contract, or not agree to the premise, but they hog-tied themselves.   My premise, that we would need to know about the contract before determining what Williams, Ventura, and LaRouche should have done still stands.  That I think LaRouche wanting to rear his kid in the clubhouse is bizarre has no bearing on how management should have handled it. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't know. I gave up playing baseball because it was too much time away from the farm in the summer, where I spent nearly all of my time from about age 8-9 on up helping my dad each day. My classmates frequently would have a missed day of class to help on the farm during the school year throughout even high school, and then your summer was basically dedicated to the farm. So that life still exists plenty, and of all my classmates, 0 have become farmers.

 

So you spent a lot of time with your dad during the summers - congratulations. (Seriously, I did the same) Would it have ever have even crossed your parents minds to pull you out from March-October?

 

No?  Then the two aren't even remotely comparable.  No one does that because this isn't the 1840s and that sort of practice is both A) Not of much good for producing future farmers and B ) Ignores your child's ability to get an education necessary to even be a farmer in today's world.

 

So, I guess Adam Laroche is equivalent to really dumb farmers? Or is some sort of 1840s novelty?  I guess I don't see how this is a redeemable trait.

 

If Adam Laroche was doing what you are suggesting (summers with him and a day here or there outside of that) I would understand that.  He'd still be putting a premium on a real education and sharing that experience.

 

But he's not.

[Han Joelo]

I would suggest that any apprenticeship is beneficial to young adults.  Like bigben, I and most of my friends grew up on farms, though few to none of them farm now.  I think we were part of the last generation of farm kids.  I took me a while to realize how much I'd learned just about hard work, ethical behavior, and resilience from that experience.  Its been an advantage for me my whole life.  

 

As far as baseball specifically as an apprenticeship, well, I suppose watching people who are among the world's few elite at their jobs might be helpful--players and coaches alike.

 

Here's this:

 

 

Bill reportedly learned to break down game films at a young age by watching his father and the Navy staff do their jobs.[51]

 

Yeah, hanging out at work with his Dad was bad idea for Bill Belichick.

[biggentleben]

 

So you spent a lot of time with your dad during the summers - congratulations. (Seriously, I did the same) Would it have ever have even crossed your parents minds to pull you out from March-October?

 

No?  Then the two aren't even remotely comparable.  No one does that because this isn't the 1840s and that sort of practice is both A) Not of much good for producing future farmers and B ) Ignores your child's ability to get an education necessary to even be a farmer in today's world.

 

So, I guess Adam Laroche is equivalent to really dumb farmers? Or is some sort of 1840s novelty?  I guess I don't see how this is a redeemable trait.

 

If Adam Laroche was doing what you are suggesting (summers with him and a day here or there outside of that) I would understand that.  He'd still be putting a premium on a real education and sharing that experience.

 

But he's not.

 

You ignored the point I made that it was very common from March to May each spring and in September and October for kids in my class to miss full weeks of class to help on the farm during planting, harvest, and calving seasons on their respective farms, so while my parents didn't pull me frequently, it did happen a few times.

[USAFChief]

Whether The Laroches are homeschooling the kid or not, he would seem to be missing an awful lot of school if he's spending six days a week at dad's work from February through September, no?

[Han Joelo]

 

So you spent a lot of time with your dad during the summers - congratulations. (Seriously, I did the same) Would it have ever have even crossed your parents minds to pull you out from March-October?

 

No?  Then the two aren't even remotely comparable.  No one does that because this isn't the 1840s and that sort of practice is both A) Not of much good for producing future farmers and B ) Ignores your child's ability to get an education necessary to even be a farmer in today's world.

 

So, I guess Adam Laroche is equivalent to really dumb farmers? Or is some sort of 1840s novelty?  I guess I don't see how this is a redeemable trait.

 

If Adam Laroche was doing what you are suggesting (summers with him and a day here or there outside of that) I would understand that.  He'd still be putting a premium on a real education and sharing that experience.

 

But he's not.

Our parent's didn't have to pull us out of school.  The "workplace" was our homes.  I for one got up and worked before school, after school, and everyday all summer.  Some school districts in Idaho still took 2 or 3 weeks off every October so kids could help with potato harvest.  This was the 1990's, not 1840 mind you.

 

Drake Laroche goes to school in the winter and gets the best tutoring money can buy the rest of the time.  Assuming he doesn't have intellectual or learning disabilities, I would guess that he his probably academically advanced, when measured by some precious statistical testing device.  Regardless of where he heads in life, no matter what career, he always be able to say to himself that a Cy Young pitcher stood up for him when he was only 14.  Good for the Laroche's to gain some kind of advantage from playing baseball besides just making money.

[biggentleben]

 

Whether The Laroches are homeschooling the kid or not, he would seem to be missing an awful lot of school if he's spending six days a week at dad's work from February through September, no?

 

He's reportedly working with a Sylvan Learning Center during the season to keep up with classes throughout the season and then returning to regular classroom outside of the season.

[TheLeviathan]

 

You ignored the point I made that it was very common from March to May each spring and in September and October for kids in my class to miss full weeks of class to help on the farm during planting, harvest, and calving seasons on their respective farms, so while my parents didn't pull me frequently, it did happen a few times.

 

I didn't ignore it ben, it's not even close to the same thing.  A day or two in March or October isn't the same as EVERY DAY.  And publicly declaring they are "not big on school".

 

If my father, who also enjoyed having me help during the summer, and after football practice, and during the spring - had ever told me "school doesn't matter as much as shoveling out the pig pens" - I'd have seriously questioned whether what he was doing was about me or about him.

 

My father understood that an education was the most important, but still placed a value on that time together and the work ethic I learned.  He just didn't have it ass backwards like Laroche does - which is where your comparison falls apart.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Our parent's didn't have to pull us out of school.  The "workplace" was our homes.  I for one got up and worked before school, after school, and everyday all summer.  Some school districts in Idaho still took 2 or 3 weeks off every October so kids could help with potato harvest.  This was the 1990's, not 1840 mind you.

 

Drake Laroche goes to school in the winter and gets the best tutoring money can buy the rest of the time.  Assuming he doesn't have intellectual or learning disabilities, I would guess that he his probably academically advanced, when measured by some precious statistical testing device.  Regardless of where he heads in life, no matter what career, he always be able to say to himself that a Cy Young pitcher stood up for him when he was only 14.  Good for the Laroche's to gain some kind of advantage from playing baseball besides just making money.

 

Except Laroche has publicly said they prioritize homework below spending time together.  So they go fishing and hunting before any educational work that has to be done.  He has said that education "isn't that big of a deal"

 

This is not about the Laroche family business falling apart without help from the kid.  This isn't even about teaching something like a farm work ethic.  For them this is about spending time together and it is done at the expense of education and with the belief that he learns MORE from a major league clubhouse than a classroom.

 

Prize hard work and learning to work hard all you want.  That isn't why Laroche is doing this, so he can't even hide behind that slightly less-dubious justification.

[Han Joelo]

I don't presume to know Laroche's motivation. Nor do I put much stock in out of context quotes. Maybe he is some self-centered jerk and this whole thing is indeed a contrived way to win a parent of the year award.

 

I just disagree with those who think the notion of a 14 year old young man spending time at work with his dad is somehow bizarre. Unusual in this day and age, yes. Which is unfortunate--but hey, that is just my opinion.

[jimmer]

To me, it's not whether or not anyone agrees with the idea of having your kid with you at work all the time (and for me, I don't think it's my place to comment on his parenting). For me, the point is he was told he could.  It was a condition of his signing with the team.

 

If someone signed with a company and that someone negotiated a corner office with a great view, I imagine they would get pretty ticked off if they had to vacate that office a year later because the company decided that you needed to be with the company for 10 years, regardless of experience in the field, before you could get such and office and now that someone had to move out of it.

 

A condition of agreeing to employment.  If the team had an issue with such a condition, tell the player before he signs with them and the player can move on. Once the team agrees, honor your agreement.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't presume to know Laroche's motivation. Nor do I put much stock in out of context quotes. Maybe he is some self-centered jerk and this whole thing is indeed a contrived way to win a parent of the year award.

I just disagree with those who think the notion of a 14 year old young man spending time at work with his dad is somehow bizarre. Unusual in this day and age, yes. Which is unfortunate--but hey, that is just my opinion.

 

 

Here is the quote:

 

"We're not big on school," LaRoche said. "I told my wife, 'He's going to learn a lot more useful information in the clubhouse than he will in the classroom, as far as life lessons.'"

 

 

Apprenticing to be a major league first baseman is, statistically speaking, a poor choice of apprenticeships at the expense of schooling.