Bryce Harper on Unwritten Rules, Changing the Culture of Baseball

[jimmer]

 

Trout had a 9.0 WAR last year, leading the AL.

 

He led the league in SLG, OPS and OPS+.  Slacker ONLY finished second in OBP (to Miggy) with a paltry .402 OBP.

 

 

Forgot to mention, he also lead the league in wRC+.  

 

So that's first in the AL in WAR, wRC+, SLG%, OPS, OPS+, and 2nd in OBP.

 

Only 9th out of 21 CFs in DRS.  Slacker.

[biggentleben]

 

A lot of his value has been on defense?

He has a 304/397/590 over his 19-23 age seasons. He has 140 HR and 113 Sb and been caught 23 times. Averaged 120 runs, 100 rbi and 330 total bases a year.

Trout has 37 WAR in his first four years. Per fan graphs, only nine players in the history of the game have had 37 WAR in any 4 year stretch, let alone their 19-23 age seasons.

 

Trout has gone from a guy whose UZR went from a 13.3 number in 2012 to a -9.8 in 2014. He rebounded better in 2015 to a 0.2, but the scouting take was that much of that rebound was more stats catching up to him being a league average guy and his number in 2014 being too far due to poor teammates. His base running value has gone down every single season of his career as well. Add in that he had an unsustainable 25.3% HR/FB rate (4% higher than any season he'd previously had), and had both an increase in the rate of his swings on pitches outside the zone (25.2%, his highest number since his rookie season), and the lowest percentage of balls he made contact with outside of the zone (66.4%, 4% lower than any previous season). Once again, it's not like he's fallen off a cliff, but the signs are there that he's mortal rather than the superhuman he was playing at previously, that's all.

[biggentleben]

 

I think he's clearly still the best in the game.

 

I can understand that argument. I will absolutely admit a pitching bias, but I would take Kershaw over Trout, personally, as controversial as that would be. Outside of Kershaw, if I'm starting a team, I don't dispute that I'd take Trout over any other guy, but there's at least an argument now for a few other guys like Harper, Machado, Correa, etc., and that would have been laughable two years ago.

[jimmer]

 

I can understand that argument. I will absolutely admit a pitching bias, but I would take Kershaw over Trout, personally, as controversial as that would be. Outside of Kershaw, if I'm starting a team, I don't dispute that I'd take Trout over any other guy, but there's at least an argument now for a few other guys like Harper, Machado, Correa, etc., and that would have been laughable two years ago.

Correa is quickly becoming my favorite player in baseball.  Not quite there, but getting there.  He's probably in my top 5, with Tulo, Span, Arenado being 1-2-3.

 

Love Correa's approach, love his presence.

[biggentleben]

 

Correa is quickly becoming my favorite player in baseball.  Not quite there, but getting there.  He's probably in my top 5, with Tulo and Span being 1-2.

 

Love Correa's approach, love his presence.

 

It's too bad that he's now the second-best shortstop in his own division, but he'll have to live with that, I suppose...

[jimmer]

 

It's too bad that he's now the second-best shortstop in his own division, but he'll have to live with that, I suppose...

Tulo is?  We'll see. :-)

 

And I know you're messing with me, but for me it's not really about who is the best at their position when it comes to being my favorite players.  I love Tulo's overall game and leadership.  I love Arenado's overall game, especially his defense.  I love Span's under-rated defense and the professional way he goes about his game. Span has been very under-rated in his career.

[biggentleben]

 

Tulo is?  We'll see. :-)

 

And I know you're messing with me, but for me it's not really about who is the best at their position when it comes to being my favorite players.  I love Tulo's overall game and leadership.  I love Arenado's overall game, especially his defense.  I love Span's under-rated defense and the professional way he goes about his game. Span has been very under-rated in his career.

 

No, Correa is...

 

I agree with you on Span. He was my first choice the season the Braves signed BJ Upton and the Nationals traded for Span. I know that the Twins and Braves were discussing a JR Graham for Span swap, but the Twins wanted Julio Teheran, and the Braves preferred to have it be either Graham or Sean Gilmartin (both of whom ended up on the Twins eventually anyway, interestingly).

[jimmer]

 

No, Correa is...

Oh you said the same division. Correa is in the AL West, Tulo is in the Al East.

[biggentleben]

 

Oh you said the same division. Correa is in the AL West, Tulo is in the Al East.

 

Yeah, after the trades of the offseason, Correa is no longer the best shortstop in his own division. That'd be the gentleman in my avatar!

[jimmer]

 

Yeah, after the trades of the offseason, Correa is no longer the best shortstop in his own division. That'd be the gentleman in my avatar!

ah, I see.  your guy is definitely the best defensive shortstop. took me awhile to work through all that. :-)

[tobi0040]

I think he's clearly still the best in the game.

Agreed. From 2012 to 2015 he has 35 percent more WAR than anyone else 38 vs Mccutchen's 28)

[Mike Sixel]

 

Do like Kirby Puckett. Do like Joe Carter. Do run the bases. Do pump your fist, do jump up and down. Be happy! Don't stand there, sullenly look at the pitcher and then show him up by flipping your bat.

 

why? What, exactly, morally or ethically, was wrong? Other than someone sometime 40 years ago said it was wrong? It is entertainment, right? What is wrong, other than the pitcher deciding it was wrong? Why does he get to decide that? Why does he even care?

 

And, the whole "this generation is ruining x*" thing is silly. Every generation changes everything.

 

*music, baseball, art, politics, whatever.......

[spinowner]

 

why? What, exactly, morally or ethically, was wrong? Other than someone sometime 40 years ago said it was wrong? It is entertainment, right? What is wrong, other than the pitcher deciding it was wrong? Why does he get to decide that? Why does he even care?

 

And, the whole "this generation is ruining x*" thing is silly. Every generation changes everything.

 

*music, baseball, art, politics, whatever.......

How about just because it's not good to go around dissing everyone you succeed against. If I were to treat everyone on these boards the equivalent way Bautista treated Dyson I'd have had posts deleted and received warnings, suspensions and probably a ban. We're just here for entertainment, right? If someone is offended it's just them deciding it was wrong. Why do they get to decide that? Why do they even care?

[Craig Arko]

You think baseball is stodgy?

 

A Quick Guide to the Rules and Etiquette of Tournament Chess

 

http://www.gatewaychess.org/Quick_Guide.pdf

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

How about just because it's not good to go around dissing everyone you succeed against. If I were to treat everyone on these boards the equivalent way Bautista treated Dyson I'd have had posts deleted and received warnings, suspensions and probably a ban. We're just here for entertainment, right? If someone is offended it's just them deciding it was wrong. Why do they get to decide that? Why do they even care?

 

But, he didn't diss him........he flipped his bat. "dissing" is a scale, not a switch, right? IF he even did "diss" him....which I don't think he did, it wasn't "bannable", was it? I mean, if you can't celebrate that, what can you celebrate. Who did he hurt, how? 

[Vanimal46]

 

Do like Kirby Puckett. Do like Joe Carter. Do run the bases. Do pump your fist, do jump up and down. Be happy! Don't stand there, sullenly look at the pitcher and then show him up by flipping your bat.

I think we need to go back to the full video instead of gifs to clear up some assumptions.... 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/11493214/v523113083/must-c-clutch-bautistas-blast-puts-blue-jays-ahead

Jose Bautista just hit a ball a country mile into the upper deck. He spends all of 1 second to watch the ball, take a deep breath, look at Dyson for all of 1 second, then the bat flip. He then proceeds to run around the bases like any other HR.... 

Encarnacion tries to calm down the crowd because fans are so excited they're starting to throw items on the field. Dyson is so frazzled at this point that he mistakes Encarnacion's plead to calm down the crowd for a curtain call, which sparks the benches clearing. 

A big difference between Kirby's game winner in game 6 vs. Bautista - Kirby's HR barely clears the Plexiglas wall. That was still in a point during the game where every run mattered, so he's scooting out of the batter's box in case if it hits the wall. 

[spinowner]

 

But, he didn't diss him........he flipped his bat. "dissing" is a scale, not a switch, right?

Once again we are in agree-to-disagree territory. Yes, dissing is a scale. But there is still a line where a player's celebration becomes dissing. You say a bat flip is not dissing. I say it is. I'd guess most MLB people agree with me, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

[jimmer]

 

Once again we are in agree-to-disagree territory. Yes, dissing is a scale. But there is still a line where a player's celebration becomes dissing. You say a bat flip is not dissing. I say it is. I'd guess most MLB people agree with me, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

You mean the baseball people who are stuck in old traditions and beliefs who like to deflect their poor performance by putting the attention on the perceived 'diss' instead of where the attention belongs which is them giving up a HR in a key situation?

[jimmer]

I remember last year when a mostly powerless hitter (something like less than 10 HR his whole professional career) was supposedly disrespectful to one of our pitchers after we walked a guy to get to him and he hit a HR.  Here's a guy who almost never hits with power who got excited because he hit a HR and people were advocating for a beaning to happen.  How about putting the blame where it belongs?

 

Now when a guy does something like Gomez did last year, when he hit a HR, stared at the pitcher forever and then while running the bases he barked at the pitcher the whole way, THAT is over the line. THAT is blatant disrespect and there's nothing joyful about that.

[spinowner]

 

You mean the baseball people who are stuck in old traditions and beliefs who like to deflect their poor performance by putting the attention on the perceived 'diss' instead of where the attention belongs which is them giving up a HR in a key situation?

Here again, this is an agree-to-disagree moment. I mean the baseball people who are stuck in the old traditions and beliefs of good sportsmanship, understanding that for every winner there's a loser who tried as hard as he could and doesn't deserve to be shown up after losing.

[jimmer]

 

Here again, this is an agree-to-disagree moment. I mean the baseball people who are stuck in the old traditions and beliefs of good sportsmanship, understanding that for every winner there's a loser who tried as hard as he could and doesn't need to be shown up after losing.

Except here's the thing, they are assuming it's bad sportsmanship instead of just joy.  And they are assuming that right after they just got burned (in the case of Bautista, during a playoff game).  The sensitivity is already high to begin with by being pissed they gave up a HR in a key situation. Probably takes very little emotion shown on the part of the opponent to be perceived as a 'diss' at that point.  Baseball is a game, a game should be fun, and showing emotion and/or some flair shouldn't be a baseball crime.  The example I gave above of what Gomez did, THAT is clearly and flagrantly disrespectful and worthy of condemnation.  

[spinowner]

 

Except here's the thing, they are assuming it's bad sportsmanship instead of just joy.  And they are doing so right after they just got burned (in the case of Bautista, during a playoff game).  The sensitivity is already high to begin with by being pissed they gave up a HR in a key situation. Probably takes very little to perceive a slight at that point.

Agreed. There are times when a celebration can inadvertently become bad sportsmanship in the joy of the moment. In those cases good sportsmanship dictates that you apologize after the dust settles. Did Bautista ever express any regret whatsoever? And I ask that question honestly. I don't recall if he made any statements along those lines.

[h2oface]

 

.......Let's say Bryce hits one 500 feet and he stands and watches it. (BTW... If I hit one 500 feet... I'd want to watch it). 

 

He's met by the catcher at home plate. After some shouting back and forth. Harper goes back to the dugout and the pitcher... let's say... Matt Harvey returns to the mound. 

 

Ryan Zimmerman strolls to the plate knowing he's gonna wear one.  Sure enough.. 1st pitch. Zimmerman turns and takes it in the back. Just like it's supposed to happen. ........

 

.........And this is all Bryce Harper's fault cause he broke an unwritten rule.

 

 

It is only supposed to happen if you are a coward, and believe in throwing a baseball at a person just standing there, and you are a poor sport about serving up the cheese. There is never a good reason to throw a baseball at a batter, unless you are a coward. I guess that would be the unwritten definition of a coward.

[jimmer]

 

Agreed. There are times when a celebration can inadvertently become bad sportsmanship in the joy of the moment. In those cases good sportsmanship dictates that you apologize after the dust settles. Did Bautista ever express any regret whatsoever? And I ask that question honestly. I don't recall if he made any statements along those lines.

I'm not sure I said that.  I think just because the team that just got burned believes they have been dissed, doesn't mean they actually were.  Just because they act as if they were dissed doesn't mean they were.  A person shouldn't be judged poorly because an irrational reaction to an action (or post:-)) occurs.

 

As far as an apology goes, I don't think he did nor do I think that he thinks that he should have.  I agree with him.

[USAFChief]

Except here's the thing, they are assuming it's bad sportsmanship instead of just joy.  And they are assuming that right after they just got burned (in the case of Bautista, during a playoff game).  The sensitivity is already high to begin with by being pissed they gave up a HR in a key situation. Probably takes very little emotion shown on the part of the opponent to be perceived as a 'diss' at that point.  Baseball is a game, a game should be fun, and showing emotion and/or some flair shouldn't be a baseball crime.  The example I gave above of what Gomez did, THAT is clearly and flagrantly disrespectful and worthy of condemnation.

 

I guess then we're in agreement...flagrant disrespect is worthy of condemnation. We just disagree on where to draw the line.

[TheLeviathan]

Why does condemnation have to come in the form of a fastball at the player?  Players actually get hurt by that.

 

Clubhouses, behind the scenes, should be having those conversations.  Not hurling 90 mph heaters at the other team.  That's just eye-for-an-eye nonsense that no one but athletes and gang members seem to think is a viable form of problem solving.

[spinowner]

 

Why does condemnation have to come in the form of a fastball at the player?  Players actually get hurt by that.

 

Clubhouses, behind the scenes, should be having those conversations.  Not hurling 90 mph heaters at the other team.  That's just eye-for-an-eye nonsense that no one but athletes and gang members seem to think is a viable form of problem solving.

I want to be clear that I strongly agree with this. A perceived slight being retaliated for with a heater at the body is unacceptable. That doesn't mean I think batters should have free rein with their celebrations. Your opponent deserves to be treated with respect. In my own very humble opinion Bautista did not do that.

[spinowner]

 

I'm not sure I said that.  I think just because the team that just got burned believes they have been dissed, doesn't mean they actually were.  Just because they act as if they were dissed doesn't mean they were.  A person shouldn't be judged poorly because an irrational reaction to an action (or post:-)) occurs.

 

As far as an apology goes, I don't think he did nor do I think that he thinks that he should have.  I agree with him.

I know you didn't exactly say that in so many words, I was merely, um, adding the part you meant to say but left out, yes, that's it.

[biggentleben]

So, to take this a bit of a different direction...

 

Scenario 1:

Same exact play, Dyson throws the pitch, Bautista crushes it...

 

He stands to watch the ball fly out of the park, but makes no intentional motion/look/anything toward the mound. He then flips the bat as he did, or even more demonstratively, and jogs, as he did, in a very normal way around the bases.

 

Scenario 2:

Same exact play. Dyson throws the pitch, Bautista crushes it...

 

He stands to watch the ball fly out of the park, similarly no look at the pitcher, then throws his bat down with exuberance and proceeds around the basepaths, pumping his fists, waving on the crowd's reaction, even spinning around and backpedaling a couple steps after enthusiastically shaking hands with his third base coach. 

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

Are either/both of these scenarios acceptable? Was it entirely the nanosecond look to Dyson on the mound that has people enraged with Bautista? Or was it the bat flip? Or is it part of a larger battle in baseball right now where traditionalists feel threatened by the increasing enthusiasm more common from Latin ballplayers that used to be "cute" from one or two guys like Berenguer or Sammy Sosa or whomever, but now seems to be something that happens in nearly every game.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I want to be clear that I strongly agree with this. A perceived slight being retaliated for with a heater at the body is unacceptable. That doesn't mean I think batters should have free rein with their celebrations. Your opponent deserves to be treated with respect. In my own very humble opinion Bautista did not do that.

 

I think most of us agree that there is probably a threshold that becomes too much.  That will be different for different people.  

 

What I don't understand is allowing the players to police that.  Decorum/professionalism should (and can!) be policed the same way in baseball as it is in the real world.  Have your boss or a teammate sit you down in the dugout and chew your ear.  Just like a boss reigning in an employee.  But I've never worked somewhere that solved a decorum/professionalism issue by hucking a stapler at the offender.  In my opinion, there is more room for fun and exuberance than is currently allowed.....but I'd gladly trade that for getting rid of the unconscionably stupid unwritten rules.