Bryce Harper on Unwritten Rules, Changing the Culture of Baseball

[spinowner]

 

I don't see much difference between what Bautista did versus Fisk or even Kirby Puckett.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, keeping in mind it's just opinion for both of us. I look at an over-the-top bat flip as showing up the pitcher because I don't think it's a spontaneous display of celebration. And to me, that's where the line is drawn between exuberance and poor sportsmanship. To use another example, I felt a bit uncomfortable with Juan Beringuer's celebration after strikeouts in the 1987 postseason. Doing it the first time was fine because it was spontaneous. Continuing to do it was questionable.

[TheLeviathan]

If you didn't see exuberance in that Bautista reaction, I'm not sure what you were watching. Did it "show up the pitcher"? I guess that depends how thin your skin is. I'd have cared more about blowing the game than the bat flip.

[DrNeau]

 

I felt a bit uncomfortable with Juan Beringuer's celebration after strikeouts in the 1987 postseason. Doing it the first time was fine because it was spontaneous. Continuing to do it was questionable.

 

That '87 team was comprised of a bunch of rebels. That was just another reason why they were so dangerous. 

[tobi0040]

Not exactly. A huge portion of how perception sits has to do with modern information saturation. The internet and "easy" access to tons of information has allowed even the most casual of fans to see a 16 year-old Bryce Harper video on multiple formats whereas even the most devoted of fans, like myself, could not find a video of Alex Rodriguez doing anything nor Peyton Manning. Andrew Luck certainly wasn't regarded as a "prodigy" as he wasn't even considered the unanimous #1 pick in his own draft year (for that matter, neither was Peyton). Harper has been labeled with generational talent at hitting a baseball since he was barely a teenager, and he was hitting home runs in the major leagues when he was a teenager. Yes, he sports an attitude, but much of that attitude is media-driven and frequently off base as well. I found Bryce incredibly engaging and one of the hardest working players on the field in the multiple games I saw of his last summer. Heck, he's the best player for a division rival of my favorite team, and I find myself defending him more often than not because I'm blown away by how 5-10 minute snippets of Harper are what people take away as who he is as a person. God forbid anyone view my life similarly.

I think we just disagree about the hype and consensus view about Harper. If he was viewed as a generational talent than he should be viewed as missed expectations since mike trout is a year older and has had a better career.

 

In my lifetime (33), I don't think anyone comes close to the hype about Lebron James. He had multiple games broadcast on ESPN while he was in high school.

 

Harper may have been followed more for longer and modern technology plays a role. But on draft night I don't think Harper was more of a consensus #1 pick than Alex Rodriguez, or Stephen Strasburg for that matter. The article and Harper seems like he is head and shoulders better than the other guys when he just hasn't showed it over a period of time yet. And I don't think he works any harder than Peyton manning or tom Brady. Or Michael Jordan.

 

But at the end of the day I would not like the guy even if he was because he is cocky.

[spinowner]

 

If you didn't see exuberance in that Bautista reaction, I'm not sure what you were watching. Did it "show up the pitcher"? I guess that depends how thin your skin is. I'd have cared more about blowing the game than the bat flip.

Of course he was exuberant. And of course any pitcher is bothered more by giving up the home run. But think of it this way. If Dyson had struck out Bautista do you think he would have stood defiantly on the mound for a couple seconds and then flipped his glove in the air? Do you think that would have been good sportsmanship? 

[USAFChief]

I don't see much difference between what Bautista did versus Fisk or even Kirby Puckett. He celebrated a massive emotional moment and for that he's a disgrace to everyone that shares his skin color apparently and some of you are actually siding with the idiot that said that. Idiots like Gossage and Bertuzzi are the bannermen of unwritten rules - those are the types that are deciding what should or should not be enforced.

It took an on ice assault for hockey to learn, what's it going to take for baseball?

I'm not sure why you feel the need to bring skin color into this discussion. I'm going to guess that Pedro Martinez wouldn't have thought much of Bautista's display either. Nor Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Hank Aaron, or literally thousands of baseball players of every background.

 

That Gossage said some idiotic things isn't relevant. Nor is anyone here "siding" with him.

[Vanimal46]

Of course he was exuberant. And of course any pitcher is bothered more by giving up the home run. But think of it this way. If Dyson had struck out Bautista do you think he would have stood defiantly on the mound for a couple seconds and then flipped his glove in the air? Do you think that would have been good sportsmanship?

Dyson certainly would have been fist pumping and screaming at the top of his lungs at the very least if he struck out Bautista during that at bat.

 

I guess I'm just not understanding how Bautista should have acted in that moment. I'm willing to believe it wasn't a choreographed act from him. It's got to be one of his most memorable moment in his professional career to hit a critical HR so his team could win their first playoff series in 21 years. I'd be doing cart wheels around the bases if I did that for my team.

[biggentleben]

 

I think we just disagree about the hype and consensus view about Harper. If he was viewed as a generational talent than he should be viewed as missed expectations since mike trout is a year older and has had a better career.

In my lifetime (33), I don't think anyone comes close to the hype about Lebron James. He had multiple games broadcast on ESPN while he was in high school.

Harper may have been followed more for longer and modern technology plays a role. But on draft night I don't think Harper was more of a consensus #1 pick than Alex Rodriguez, or Stephen Strasburg for that matter. The article and Harper seems like he is head and shoulders better than the other guys when he just hasn't showed it over a period of time yet. And I don't think he works any harder than Peyton manning or tom Brady. Or Michael Jordan.

But at the end of the day I would not like the guy even if he was because he is cocky.

 

Having a generational talent doesn't mean that he had that production yet. That said, the talent Harper has plays for 5-10 more years. Trout is trending the wrong way. Heck, we're 5 years from Harper's draft season, so that he's even up at all is ahead of over half of the guys in his draft class's first round. And yes, Harper was by far the #1 without question. The only debate was #2, and that was among Taillon, Machado, and Drew Pomeranz. Heck, there were some rumors in Strasburg's season about the Nationals negotiating with Ackley as well as Strasburg. 

 

Regardless, I think if you watch him play more than highlights, I think you'll enjoy watching his effort. I've been watching him since my viewings in person last summer on mlb.tv, and he's similar every game, hustling harder than most anyone out there on average singles to right to ensure no one gets to second when they shouldn't. He took second on lazy singles into the outfield more than any "power hitter" for sure.

 

I'm 36, and I remember the hype around Harper. I remember talking about him on Braves boards when he was 16, knowing that the Nationals were not only going to be picking first in 2009, but likely in 2010 as well because they were flat out terrible. I remember a number of guys on BYTO ripping into the SI issue when he was 16 (linked).

[tobi0040]

Having a generational talent doesn't mean that he had that production yet. That said, the talent Harper has plays for 5-10 more years. Trout is trending the wrong way. Heck, we're 5 years from Harper's draft season, so that he's even up at all is ahead of over half of the guys in his draft class's first round. And yes, Harper was by far the #1 without question. The only debate was #2, and that was among Taillon, Machado, and Drew Pomeranz. Heck, there were some rumors in Strasburg's season about the Nationals negotiating with Ackley as well as Strasburg.

 

Regardless, I think if you watch him play more than highlights, I think you'll enjoy watching his effort. I've been watching him since my viewings in person last summer on mlb.tv, and he's similar every game, hustling harder than most anyone out there on average singles to right to ensure no one gets to second when they shouldn't. He took second on lazy singles into the outfield more than any "power hitter" for sure.

 

I'm 36, and I remember the hype around Harper. I remember talking about him on Braves boards when he was 16, knowing that the Nationals were not only going to be picking first in 2009, but likely in 2010 as well because they were flat out terrible. I remember a number of guys on BYTO ripping into the SI issue when he was 16 (linked).

The only reason the Nats would have considered anyone else was a sign-ability issue. Stras was considered the best pitching prospect in 10 years.

[biggentleben]

 

The only reason the Nats would have considered anyone else was a sign-ability issue. Stras was considered the best pitching prospect in 10 years.

 

He was considered an incredible injury risk as well. Tony Gwynn, his college coach, stated that he was a great kid, but that he was worried about his arm.

[DocBauer]

Some of my thoughts...FWIW.

 

I find it interesting the sense or decorum and propriety that are in individual sports like golf and tennis. Over the years, you'd have to say baseball has a similar button up philosophy in acceptable actions. I'm jot a hockey fan, but if I'm not mistaken, isn't there a similar philosophy to baseball in regard to acceptability and self policing?

 

I think it would be easy to call me stodgy or old fashioned in my beliefs, but I am HUGE in regards to sportsmanship. Sports of any sort is not only entertaining but uplifting in the thrilling ways that athletes perform, and the magical moments that they create. I have always believed in the celebration of success and accomplishment. But to me, there is a line that is often crossed in sports that I find somewhat distasteful.

 

If your team is down by 20 points in the 4th quarter with a minute or so to play, and you sack the QB, is a full on sack dance really necessary or worthy? Or a meaningless TD in garbage time worth a dance party when all you've done is close the margin of defeat? High 5's, fist pumps and the such are one thing. But showing me how cool you are to pad a meaningless stat, or get a 1st down in the 1st quarter of a game is meaningless and self serving. There is something to be said in being confident and classy enough to simply show that you did what you intended to do...have done it before...and will do it again.

 

That being said, I feel baseball has to relax a bit and get over itself. How is it than when a team wins a playoff series, or the WS, that a huge pile in the middle of the diamond is OK, but a fist pump, or a quick bat flip after a tieing or game winning HR is somehow disrespectful? Someone beat you in a scenario over a 162 game season and you're going to throw a 90+ MPH fastball at his body with possible injury implications? Holy crap! Get over yourself!

 

And for goodness sake, don't let me ever play you in a game of pool or darts.

[spinowner]

 

I guess I'm just not understanding how Bautista should have acted in that moment.

Do like Kirby Puckett. Do like Joe Carter. Do run the bases. Do pump your fist, do jump up and down. Be happy! Don't stand there, sullenly look at the pitcher and then show him up by flipping your bat.

[tobi0040]

He was considered an incredible injury risk as well. Tony Gwynn, his college coach, stated that he was a great kid, but that he was worried about his arm.

From ESPN on draft night "considered to be one of the most talented players in the drafts 45 year history"

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/draft2009/news/story?id=4246330

[whitsbrain]

 

That's strange, fantasy baseball doesn't exist on ESPN, yahoo, CBS Sports, or any other fantasy website?

My buddy just went to Vegas last week and I gave him some money for futures bets in the MLB. That receipt he gave me was a fake?

 

Fantasy Football has increased the popularity of the NFL more than any other factor by far.  It's not sack dances or end-zone celebrations.  People care way more about their Fantasy teams than they do the NFL.  The NFL poo-pooed Fantasy for years.  Now they've embraced it and the League's popularity is through the roof.

 

Fantasy Baseball isn't easy enough.  Scoring is tougher and managing a 162-game season is a lot of work.  I've noticed that people are mostly lazy with no measurable attention spans.

 

Bat-flips or preening at home plate isn't going to make the game more or less popular, but I'd bet that putting helmets and body armor on players and letting them throw balls and swing bats at each other would.  Give it a dash of UFC...

 

And practically all of March Madness's popularity is due to people filling out brackets.  Last year my daughter's friends were filling out tournament brackets and the only thing these girls showed any interest in to that point had been getting tickets to a One Direction concert.  An hour ago, I switched on the TV and saw a perky female host on Good Morning America standing in front of a huge screen with tournament brackets on it, prepping her viewers for "Selection Sunday".  I'm sure all the sports fans that watch GMA were grateful.

 

Vegas...so next time I won't call it "gambling".  Most people don't give others money to place bets NFL for them.  They go to Vegas to get away from their kids for three days to get drunk and play cards and slots.

 

[TheLeviathan]

Of course he was exuberant. And of course any pitcher is bothered more by giving up the home run. But think of it this way. If Dyson had struck out Bautista do you think he would have stood defiantly on the mound for a couple seconds and then flipped his glove in the air? Do you think that would have been good sportsmanship?

 

I think there is a good chance he'd have been yelling and fist pumping his excitement. And I'd be just fine with that.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm not sure why you feel the need to bring skin color into this discussion. I'm going to guess that Pedro Martinez wouldn't have thought much of Bautista's display either. Nor Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Hank Aaron, or literally thousands of baseball players of every background.

That Gossage said some idiotic things isn't relevant. Nor is anyone here "siding" with him.

It absolutely IS relevant. If you are going to argue self policing in baseball keeps it "classy", you just heard one of the sheriffs tell you in no uncertain terms that Bautista represents everyone of his race.

 

There is a reason we abandoned the a Wild West model of self policing - the odds are MUCH higher to get abusive disgusting people in charge of the "law". It results in unnecessary injury, inconsistent enforcement, and too much influence from emotion.

 

Unless, based on your personal experience, you think the Wild West was an effective way to enforce the law.

[Riverbrian]

Let's say Bryce hits one 500 feet and he stands and watches it. (BTW... If I hit one 500 feet... I'd want to watch it). 

 

He's met by the catcher at home plate. After some shouting back and forth. Harper goes back to the dugout and the pitcher... let's say... Matt Harvey returns to the mound. 

 

Ryan Zimmerman strolls to the plate knowing he's gonna wear one.  Sure enough.. 1st pitch. Zimmerman turns and takes it in the back. Just like it's supposed to happen. 

 

But... Unfortunately... The Ball broke one of Zimmerman's ribs and now he's out for the rest of the season and its August and the Nationals are tied with the Mets in the standings. 

 

Zimmerman has to be taken out of the game. So Revere is brought in to pinch run and he steals 2nd and scores on a single and now it's gone from a 500 ft. home run to

 

A 500 ft. home run plus a free fast base runner and an additional run scored against a team you are battling with for a playoff spot

 

Plus a season ending injury. And... And... because Zimmerman is out for the year...  The next day is game two of the series and Scherzer is gonna be throwing at Granderson? Wright? Cespedes? 

 

It's the proportional response... It's built into the game... There is no virtue in it anymore. 

 

And this is all Bryce Harper's fault cause he broke an unwritten rule.

 

Unwritten Rules are stupid and the self policing of those unwritten rules are even more stupid.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tobi0040]

Trout is trending the wrong way. Heck, we're 5 years from Harper's draft season, so that he's even up at all is ahead of over half of the guys in his draft class's first round. (linked).

I don't know that your recollection of Trout vs. Harper is accurate. Trout is only one year older. They were both high school picks that debuted at 19.

 

Trout actually posted the highest OPS of his career last year, so he is not trending in the wrong direction.

 

But if you take out Trouts last year vs. Harper's entire career it is an apples to apples comparison. Trout has 3 of the 4 best seasons. He has had a better career

[biggentleben]

I don't know that your recollection of Trout vs. Harper is accurate. Trout is only one year older. They were both high school picks that debuted at 19.

 

Trout actually posted the highest OPS of his career last year, so he is not trending in the wrong direction.

 

But if you take out Trouts last year vs. Harper's entire career it is an apples to apples comparison. Trout has 3 of the 4 best seasons. He has had a better career

I'm by no means stating Harper has been better. A lot of Trout's value early in his career was based on defense, and that's already trended the wrong way in both eye test and metrics, and that won't likely go the other direction short of him moving to a corner, which would lessen his value as well.

 

My comment was that for the next 5-10 seasons, the skill set Harper brings to the table is likely going to age better. Certainly no comment on their comparative careers to this point as Trout has obviously out performed him to this point, but even quoting OPS ignores the wrong direction Trout's underlying numbers have taken. He's absolutely elite still, but he's among the top group now, not in a class all his own.

[biggentleben]

From ESPN on draft night "considered to be one of the most talented players in the drafts 45 year history"

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/draft2009/news/story?id=4246330

Yes, that doesn't change that he was considered a significant injury risk. The biggest question on Harper the next season was his eventual position as he was a high school catcher, but, citing no less than the wear on Joe Mauer, the Nationals very publicly stated he would not catch as a pro.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I think we just disagree about the hype and consensus view about Harper. If he was viewed as a generational talent than he should be viewed as missed expectations since mike trout is a year older and has had a better career.

In my lifetime (33), I don't think anyone comes close to the hype about Lebron James. He had multiple games broadcast on ESPN while he was in high school.

Harper may have been followed more for longer and modern technology plays a role. But on draft night I don't think Harper was more of a consensus #1 pick than Alex Rodriguez, or Stephen Strasburg for that matter. The article and Harper seems like he is head and shoulders better than the other guys when he just hasn't showed it over a period of time yet. And I don't think he works any harder than Peyton manning or tom Brady. Or Michael Jordan.

But at the end of the day I would not like the guy even if he was because he is cocky.

But would you want him as a teammate?

[tobi0040]

I'm by no means stating Harper has been better. A lot of Trout's value early in his career was based on defense, and that's already trended the wrong way in both eye test and metrics, and that won't likely go the other direction short of him moving to a corner, which would lessen his value as well.

 

My comment was that for the next 5-10 seasons, the skill set Harper brings to the table is likely going to age better. Certainly no comment on their comparative careers to this point as Trout has obviously out performed him to this point, but even quoting OPS ignores the wrong direction Trout's underlying numbers have taken. He's absolutely elite still, but he's among the top group now, not in a class all his own.

A lot of his value has been on defense?

 

He has a 304/397/590 over his 19-23 age seasons. He has 140 HR and 113 Sb and been caught 23 times. Averaged 120 runs, 100 rbi and 330 total bases a year.

 

Trout has 37 WAR in his first four years. Per fan graphs, only nine players in the history of the game have had 37 WAR in any 4 year stretch, let alone their 19-23 age seasons.

[tobi0040]

But would you want him as a teammate?

Completely besides the point. He can be a great player you want on your team and not the best or even top five.

[Vanimal46]

Let's say Bryce hits one 500 feet and he stands and watches it. (BTW... If I hit one 500 feet... I'd want to watch it).

 

He's met by the catcher at home plate. After some shouting back and forth. Harper goes back to the dugout and the pitcher... let's say... Matt Harvey returns to the mound.

 

Ryan Zimmerman strolls to the plate knowing he's gonna wear one. Sure enough.. 1st pitch. Zimmerman turns and takes it in the back. Just like it's supposed to happen.

 

But... Unfortunately... The Ball broke one of Zimmerman's ribs and now he's out for the rest of the season and its August and the Nationals are tied with the Mets in the standings.

 

Zimmerman has to be taken out of the game. So Revere is brought in to pinch run and he steals 2nd and scores on a single and now it's gone from a 500 ft. home run to

 

A 500 ft. home run plus a free fast base runner and an additional run scored against a team you are battling with for a playoff spot

 

Plus a season ending injury. And... And... because Zimmerman is out for the year... The next day is game two of the series and Scherzer is gonna be throwing at Granderson? Wright? Cespedes?

 

It's the proportional response... It's built into the game... There is no virtue in it anymore.

 

And this is all Bryce Harper's fault cause he broke an unwritten rule.

 

Unwritten Rules are stupid and the self policing of those unwritten rules are even more stupid.

Good analogy RiverBrian and it's one of my biggest pet peeves of the unwritten rules. When does the cycle end of teams having a grudge with each other over showing them up and beaning players intentionally?

 

If these unwritten rules were actually written, a lot of it could go away... Let's say if a pitcher intentionally plunks a batter, it results in an immediate ejection from the game along with a 10 game suspension no pay.

 

With a penalty like that, most everyone on rookie contracts or on the bubble of getting replaced wouldn't risk it.

[jimmer]

Trout had a 9.0 WAR last year, leading the AL.

 

He led the league in SLG, OPS and OPS+.  Slacker ONLY finished second in OBP (to Miggy) with a paltry .402 OBP.

 

And yet, 2nd in MVP to my preseason pick for MVP going into 2015, Donaldson.

 

That's MY kind of trending downwards.

[jimmer]

 

A lot of his value has been on defense?

He has a 304/397/590 over his 19-23 age seasons. He has 140 HR and 113 Sb and been caught 23 times. Averaged 120 runs, 100 rbi and 330 total bases a year.

Trout has 37 WAR in his first four years. Per fan graphs, only nine players in the history of the game have had 37 WAR in any 4 year stretch, let alone their 19-23 age seasons.

I think I read that Trout has more WAR than anyone from '10-15 even though he didn't become a full time player until 2012.  He should have more than one MVP, and the one he DID get was his worst year.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Trout is a better player than Harper but that doesn't mean Harper wasn't a prodigy, and they are both among the top few hitters in the game.

[jimmer]

 

Trout is a better player than Harper but that doesn't mean Harper wasn't a prodigy, and they are both among the top few hitters in the game.

Harper was absolutely a prodigy.

[biggentleben]

 

Trout had a 9.0 WAR last year, leading the AL.

 

He led the league in SLG, OPS and OPS+.  Slacker ONLY finished second in OBP (to Miggy) with a paltry .402 OBP.

 

And yet, 2nd in MVP to my preseason pick for MVP going into 2015, Donaldson.

 

That's MY kind of trending downwards.

 

Absolutely. Like I said, he's gone from "no one in the game is in his stratosphere" to "one of the best 3-5 in the game".

[jimmer]

I think he's clearly still the best in the game.