Changes to rule(s) pertaining to breaking up the DP

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Another good call.

See, I think that was a terrible call (but it followed the new rule, I'll give you that).

 

The fielder didn't even attempt a throw. That's not good baseball. A guy was called out when there wasn't even an attempt to make a play to get him out (and the runner didn't interfere with the fielder making the play, not even a little bit).

 

I don't understand how anyone could think that's good baseball. That's NFL baseball.

 

And I'm saying this as a person who isn't entirely against the new rule... But the way it's currently implemented is utter horse****. That was a good ballgame ended prematurely by the umps. I don't see how that's enjoyable for anyone involved, especially the fans.

 

I generally dislike Dan Gladden but he brought up a good point tonight:

 

You rarely slide directly into second because that's where the fielder is going to be. This rule is forcing the runner to predict how the fielder is going to react and the team can be penalized if he doesn't predict correctly.*

 

*this is not the way Gladden said it but it was the general gist behind his point

[TheLeviathan]

The point of the rule is to end reckless behavior that unnecessarily risks injury. Rasmus is a foot tight of the bag and his body is turned away from it in an effort to hit the infielder. It may take some harsh punishments and losses to change this, but we all benefit from less hazardous play.

 

Just slide into the freaking base. Thousands of high schoolers play that way every year. Gladden's point is total bunk because baseball is played in other countries and in our own (where fair play is highlighted most) without needing to slide this way. Sliding to the side is fine, but Rasmus isn't even trying to get the bag.

 

That's the mentality that has to change.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Rasmus isn't sliding toward the bag but he's also not sliding toward the infielder. If anything, if he goes hard at the bag (and therefore the infielder), the chance of injury increases.

 

Rasmus didn't try to grapple the fielder's leg, he didn't try to interfere with the play, he just slid wide of the bag... And suddenly, two outs. It's game over in a tight game.

 

That's NFL territory right there. The umps called the game and took the players out of the equation.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Rasmus isn't sliding toward the bag but he's also not sliding toward the infielder. If anything, if he goes hard at the bag (and therefore the infielder), the chance of injury increases.

 

Rasmus didn't try to grapple the fielder's leg, he didn't try to interfere with the play, he just slid wide of the bag... And suddenly, two outs. It's game over in a tight game.

 

That's NFL territory right there. The umps called the game and took the players out of the equation.

 

What video did you watch?  He was no where near the bag and kicked his left leg up to hit the left leg of the infielder.  (Who pulled his leg up to side step it)  Hell, his left foot ends up higher than his head by the end.

 

He's clearly not trying to be safe - he slid to where he thought the SS's momentum was going to carry him (across the bag) so that he would impact the fielder.

 

We have to get back to sliding to be safe - not sliding to make physical contact.  If physical contact happens directly at second in that scenario - fine.  But as soon as guys are sliding like this to contact fielders the slope gets awfully slippery to Utley territory.  The mindset has to change - just freaking slide to be safe.  Not slide for the pivot guy.

[gunnarthor]

 

The point of the rule is to end reckless behavior that unnecessarily risks injury. Rasmus is a foot tight of the bag and his body is turned away from it in an effort to hit the infielder. It may take some harsh punishments and losses to change this, but we all benefit from less hazardous play.

Just slide into the freaking base. Thousands of high schoolers play that way every year. Gladden's point is total bunk because baseball is played in other countries and in our own (where fair play is highlighted most) without needing to slide this way. Sliding to the side is fine, but Rasmus isn't even trying to get the bag.

That's the mentality that has to change.

I think your emphasis on "reckless behavior" is the issue - most fans don't see it as such.  And, as mentioned by players, if you really cared about player safety there was a big list of things to work on before the slide - including making uniform stadiums, more off days and less travel days.  Injuries on slides into second base are/were extremely rare. 

 

So to combat a minor (at best) issue, we are taking aggressiveness out of the game and to add insult to injure, it's a discretionary call that we've seen umpires treat differently.  So it's not even uniform.  I suspect that mlb will modify this rule like they did the catch rule last year but so far the early returns are pretty bad.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think your emphasis on "reckless behavior" is the issue - most fans don't see it as such.  And, as mentioned by players, if you really cared about player safety there was a big list of things to work on before the slide - including making uniform stadiums, more off days and less travel days.  Injuries on slides into second base are/were extremely rare. 

 

So to combat a minor (at best) issue, we are taking aggressiveness out of the game and to add insult to injure, it's a discretionary call that we've seen umpires treat differently.  So it's not even uniform.  I suspect that mlb will modify this rule like they did the catch rule last year but so far the early returns are pretty bad.

 

On what basis do you claim "most fans" don't see it as such?  Are there polls?

 

Thing is, it doesn't have to cause a slew of injuries, even a few are unnecessary.  Not to mention the fact that this kind of sliding caused the game to start accepting that infielders just have to be "in the area" of a base to count an out.  A preposterously non-baseball thing that exists only because of fear by infielders to touch the base.  

 

And cut the drama, this doesn't take out aggressiveness.  Slide hard INTO THE BASE.  It's not that hard.  Again, it's done in other countries and by any non-professional baseball player.  You go watch a town ball game and guys don't have their spikes/feet up trying to take anyone out.  You can play aggressively without trying to take people out.

 

Stopping catchers from being freight trained didn't ruin the game - it saved injuries.  So will this.  And baseball will continue to be played.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

 

And cut the drama, this doesn't take out aggressiveness.  Slide hard INTO THE BASE.  It's not that hard.  Again, it's done in other countries and by any non-professional baseball player.  You go watch a town ball game and guys don't have their spikes/feet up trying to take anyone out.  You can play aggressively without trying to take people out.

 

Stopping catchers from being freight trained didn't ruin the game - it saved injuries.  So will this.  And baseball will continue to be played.

Of course baseball will continue to be played.  I prefer the American version to the Japanese, I prefer the AL to the NL.  But it's still baseball and I'll watch it. 

 

And your constant exaggerations - spikes up, intent to injure - really don't help you.  It just makes you seem like a guy with an axe to grind, facts be damned.  None of three videos showed players with spikes up or an intent to injure.  It showed three guys trying to slide hard to break up a double play.  I'm honestly not sure how anyone can try and break up the double play on some of these calls. 

[TheLeviathan]

No, Rasmus did not intend to injure, but his left foot, complete with spikes, was definitely up.

 

And your last point is what matters - if you can't break it up, why the hell are you trying to interfere? Why not, like all other brands of baseball, respect the well being of your opponent and slide into the base? The only thing take out slides ever accomplished was terrorizing the interaction to such a degree that baseball started letting infielders stand a foot off the bag they were supposed to be touching and still called it an out. Now we are take out sliding several feet from bases to "get" the infielder. Because the point of these slides is to take out fielders, something we strictly disallow in every other facet of the game.

 

You know how that silliness stops? Slide into the freaking base like you find when were 17 and not trying to be a kamikaze.

[USAFChief]

I think your emphasis on "reckless behavior" is the issue - most fans don't see it as such.  And, as mentioned by players, if you really cared about player safety there was a big list of things to work on before the slide - including making uniform stadiums, more off days and less travel days.  Injuries on slides into second base are/were extremely rare. 

 

So to combat a minor (at best) issue, we are taking aggressiveness out of the game and to add insult to injure, it's a discretionary call that we've seen umpires treat differently.  So it's not even uniform.  I suspect that mlb will modify this rule like they did the catch rule last year but so far the early returns are pretty bad.

That there may be other things to work on regarding player safety is a poor reason not to try to fix this one.

[jimmer]

Utley went out of his normal path to try and take out the catcher last night.  Same guy who made that dirty play last year that prompted much needed rule changes.

 

When did he turn into such a dirty player?  Used to be one of my favorites, now he's just pathetic.

[gunnarthor]

 

Utley went out of his normal path to try and take out the catcher last night.  Same guy who made that dirty play last year that prompted much needed rule changes.

 

When did he turn into such a dirty player?  Used to be one of my favorites, now he's just pathetic.

I'm pretty sure he always played like that - I believe his successful appeal actually compared his slide to many of his other slides.  It's just now that we care (I guess).

[biggentleben]

 

Of course baseball will continue to be played.  I prefer the American version to the Japanese, I prefer the AL to the NL.  But it's still baseball and I'll watch it. 

 

See, this is the crowd that confuses me the most. At least the red arses on the Braves boards I'm part of that are "new rule bad" "DH bad" "change bad" are at least consistent. I just don't get anyone claiming tradition and "ruining" the game and then in the next breath discussing their preference for the designated hitter. The DH was a huge, monstrously big step down the path of major changes in the game, so you can't pick and choose which ones you like. The game made a major choice and used pitcher safety as a primary reason for it (and still utilizes pitcher safety as a reason to implement the DH in both leagues), so other rules intended to benefit player safety are just further trips down that rabbit hole. You cannot have it both ways.

[gunnarthor]

 

See, this is the crowd that confuses me the most. At least the red arses on the Braves boards I'm part of that are "new rule bad" "DH bad" "change bad" are at least consistent. I just don't get anyone claiming tradition and "ruining" the game and then in the next breath discussing their preference for the designated hitter. The DH was a huge, monstrously big step down the path of major changes in the game, so you can't pick and choose which ones you like. The game made a major choice and used pitcher safety as a primary reason for it (and still utilizes pitcher safety as a reason to implement the DH in both leagues), so other rules intended to benefit player safety are just further trips down that rabbit hole. You cannot have it both ways.

I think you can be against some changes without having to be against EVERY change.  The DH makes baseball better, less boring and more fun to watch.  It's also survived for 40 years.  This new slide rule is in it's first week, let's see how it plays out.  Two years from now, maybe no one cares/remembers.

[biggentleben]

 

I think you can be against some changes without having to be against EVERY change.  The DH makes baseball better, less boring and more fun to watch.  It's also survived for 40 years.  This new slide rule is in it's first week, let's see how it plays out.  Two years from now, maybe no one cares/remembers.

 

I also think it's more fun to watch when Andrelton Simmons is in the game, and if a rule like this keeps him more safe in the field, then it adds to the fun of the game. I personally don't find DH "fun", so there is still debate on that rule 40+ years later, which is the reason why it hasn't been adopted across the entire league.

[spinowner]

 

We have to get back to sliding to be safe - not sliding to make physical contact.

Bingo. If Rasmus was sliding to be safe he would have started his slide much sooner and there would have been no contact. If you wind up past the base it follows that interfering with any possible subsequent play was the intent, even if it would not have caused injury. Rasmus wound up 5 feet past the base. That's why the call was a good one.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Bingo. If Rasmus was sliding to be safe he would have started his slide much sooner and there would have been no contact. If you wind up past the base it follows that interfering with any possible subsequent play was the intent, even if it would not have caused injury. Rasmus wound up 5 feet past the base. That's why the call was a good one.

 

Right, intent to injure is always going to be as unclear here as it is in any other setting.  Intent is something we can only surmise.  But what we know is that Rasmus had absolutely no interest in being safe, so the next most likely thing he was doing was trying to slide into the fielder.

 

Slides like Utley's are escalation of the issue at second.  It started with guys going so hard into planted infielders that injuries became a scare.  So infielders adapted to get away from the bag more quickly, eventually so much so that they were rarely even touching the bag.  (Something amatuer leagues prevent with the force out slide rule.  Yet, somehow, they still play baseball)  Baseball decided that rather than deal with the real problem - sliding - they would just accept that infielders were rightly terrified to actually touch the base so they allowed them to be "in the neighborhood".  Now guys are kicking legs out and sliding three feet away from the bag so they can snag the fielder wherever he runs for cover.  

 

Why?  Because take out sliding has nothing to do with being safe at second and everything to do with sliding into the fielder.  That is a significant injury risk and ridiculously un-baseball.  Hell, I'd rather guys go bear-hug the infielder if the intent is just to interfere with a double play.

 

Time to go back to respecting yoru opponent enough not to risk shattering his leg for the sake of the tiny chance you might alter the double play.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Rasmus isn't sliding toward the bag but he's also not sliding toward the infielder. If anything, if he goes hard at the bag (and therefore the infielder), the chance of injury increases.

 

Rasmus didn't try to grapple the fielder's leg, he didn't try to interfere with the play, he just slid wide of the bag... And suddenly, two outs. It's game over in a tight game.

 

That's NFL territory right there. The umps called the game and took the players out of the equation.

Rasmus was fully in the equation.  He chose to slide... where exactly?  Nowhere near second base, in clear violation of the rule.

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63817564/v579743383/houmil-call-confirmed-brewers-dp-ends-game/?game_pk=446915

 

If you give umpires enough discretion about applying this rule to allow the Rasmus slide to stand, because the infielder didn't throw or because Rasmus was trying to avoid contact on the base or some other excuse, you will see more attempted Utley slides because guys will think they can get away with it just like Rasmus did.  So that kind of discretion isn't in the rule for a very practical reason.

 

This isn't that difficult.  It's not the baserunner's job to avoid contact, and the baserunner will not be punished just because he makes contact.  It's the baserunner's job to slide at the base and stay on the base, just like force plays at third or returning to tag a base on a caught fly.  Just like it's not the umpire's job to judge intent, it's not the baserunner's job to try guessing where the fielder will or will not be.  Slide at the base, and stay on the base, and you will be fine.  There hasn't been one call yet that suggests that isn't true.

[tobi0040]

 

Slide at the base, and stay on the base, and you will be fine.  There hasn't been one call yet that suggests that isn't true.

 

10 pages of this thread could be summed up with these two sentences.  You are right, it is not complicated and hasn't yet had a single issue regararding interpretation/judgement.

[TheLeviathan]

 

10 pages of this thread could be summed up with these two sentences.  You are right, it is not complicated and hasn't yet had a single issue regararding interpretation/judgement.

 

Exactly, but I don't see how anyone can contend that asking baseball players to do that somehow undermines the fabric of the game.

[ashbury]

I'm not in favor of middle infielders getting broken legs, but man, takeout slides are part of the game. It's going to take me a while to get used to this new sport they are calling baseball.

 

... I don't see how anyone can contend that asking baseball players to do that somehow undermines the fabric of the game.

 

Not that anyone is cataloging individual responses on this issue, nor that Levi was referencing me at all, but I have to say that the discussion here has changed my view. I was in favor of the rule change (in a vacuum) when it was announced, but my initial viewing of the videos where penalty outs were assessed looked a little strange to me, in that they didn't look too much different than what I've always been used to, and that was the gist of my comment. But all in all I think it's an improvement to the game, to clarify that oversliding second base or going out of the basepath is going to leave the runner open to an interference call.

[spinowner]

 

Slide at the base, and stay on the base, and you will be fine.  There hasn't been one call yet that suggests that isn't true.

 

 

10 pages of this thread could be summed up with these two sentences.  You are right, it is not complicated and hasn't yet had a single issue regararding interpretation/judgement.

The entire new rule could be summed up with these two sentences.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

Stopping catchers from being freight trained didn't ruin the game - it saved injuries.  So will this.  And baseball will continue to be played.

I admit you are right about this.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

By the way, did everyone see the slide in the 5th that Molitor jumped out to challenge, and then decided better of it? The tamest slide ever. It's really unfortunate that this is the new mentality, that of finger pointing and coaches challenges. Yes, the fans lose when more and more calls on the field are ruled on by replay guys in New York.

[TheLeviathan]

Did replays really add more time though? Aren't they basically replacing long conferences of the past? In general, I think replay is pretty fast in baseball. Better than the NFL for sure.

[gunnarthor]

My concerns might have been overstated.  Bautista had a really nice take out slide on Pedroia the other day that didn't get a call.  If that slide is ok, I think we're probably good.  

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v582350983/bostor-pillar-donaldson-score-on-grounder-error/?game_pk=446942

[Otto von Ballpark]

Bautista is a quick learner!  Slid directly at the bag, and grabbed hold of the bag so as not to slide past it.  Well done.

[tobi0040]

 

I admit you are right about this.

 

The interesting thing about change is something really bad needs to happen first.

 

Posey's injury led to the catcher changes.  Kang was not a huge star, but I am guessing he had an out-sized following in Korea.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

Bautista is a quick learner!  Slid directly at the bag, and grabbed hold of the bag so as not to slide past it.  Well done.

It was a very late slide, but like you said, he did it correctly. 

[TheLeviathan]

His slide was late, but it was definitely ok.  He slid right at the bag and made no deliberate effort to interfere with the fielder.

 

I'm ok with that slide 100% of the time.  That's what we need to get back to as long as we continue to respect the idea of not hurting the infielder.  Play with that respect and slide like that and the game is better for it.

[gunnarthor]

Not unexpected - http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/mlb-already-backing-off-new-slide-rule/