Changes to rule(s) pertaining to breaking up the DP

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

This in no way answers the question. You continue to bristle every time someone points out that player safety is a real factor and that you are promoting player injury. But then you also complain about "busting up double plays" going away, as if the injury-causing slides are somehow different than the "bust up the double play slides" Players are injuring each other with the express intent of busting up double plays.

 

So you seem to want to have it both ways, so better clarity on what you actually want to stick around and want out would be helpful. Otherwise, you look like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

The old system was fine, except for two things:

 

1. Plays like Utley's and Bautista's needed to be enforced on the field, with severe action taken against the player if necessary (fine, suspension) and,

 

2. Baseball teams shouldn't use middle infielders from Asia as middle infielders in the American game.

 

That's really about it.

[dgwills]

 

I disagree. The rule was put in to prohibit Utley's football "slide" that took out Tejada, not the slide that took out Kang.

It's pretty well documented that middle infielders who learned the game in Asia always have the problem of planting their legs when they make the turn.

I watched it again. Kang was a step maybe a step and a half of the bag. The runner clearly altered his path to go after him. It would be an illegal slide under the new rule. I would agree that the play would not have happened in Asia and the Tejada play was worse.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I think the part where I said the new rule seems good on paper pretty well summed up my view.  If the player primarily slides into the bag to bust up the double play, it should be fine.  But I don't think that is what we're seeing.  I think where we disagree is the judgement of how the rule is being implemented.  Especially when the judgement of the umps on the field view it differently (in real time) then do the reply officials in NY.  Both of these plays were on close plays at second base where the base runner slid hard into the bag.  That should be fine. (And the umps thought so, too).  I'm not sure, based on those two rulings, how any close slide would be considered legal b/c almost all close plays would result in some form of contact.  

The umps only "thought so" in so much as they didn't immediately call interference on the field, knowing that replay could correct them.  Just like with a "trap rule" -- it's easiest to let the play continue on the field and correct it later, rather than end the play immediately and try to undo it.

 

These two runners didn't slide primarily into the bag -- they slid well past the bag.  If a runner stealing second base did that, I'm not sure they could argue "I slid primarily into the bag" after they were tagged out...

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I watched it again. Kang was a step maybe a step and a half of the bag. The runner clearly altered his path to go after him. It would be an illegal slide under the new rule. I would agree that the play would not have happened in Asia and the Tejada play was worse.

I do agree with this. I think my biggest issue is that people (not just on Twins Daily) seem to think that base runners have malicious intent and want to actually hurt the guy.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Well, the rule actually doesn't need the runner to be hit by the ball but again, it's a judgement call.  

I think there needs to be some physical interference with the fielder or the ball to rule interference.  At that point, it becomes a judgement call.  But I don't think the umpires can say that the mere presence of Correa legally running on the grass "psyched out" the fielder or something like that.

 

Just like the mere act of sliding into second base won't be enough to rule interference there under the new rule.  What we've seen is runners going beyond that (literally well beyond second base) in violation of the rule.

 

Hopefully that removes enough ambiguity that an Utley/Coghlan style take out slide will never even be attempted again.  I think you are mistaken if you think a more modest rule change would have had the same effect at permanently eliminating such slides.

[dgwills]

 

I do agree with this. I think my biggest issue is that people (not just on Twins Daily) seem to think that base runners have malicious intent and want to actually hurt the guy.

I see. I'd agree that there was no malicious intent on that play. Hard to have much intent at all when things happen that quickly.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think the part where I said the new rule seems good on paper pretty well summed up my view.  If the player primarily slides into the bag to bust up the double play, it should be fine.  But I don't think that is what we're seeing.  I think where we disagree is the judgement of how the rule is being implemented.  Especially when the judgement of the umps on the field view it differently (in real time) then do the reply officials in NY.  Both of these plays were on close plays at second base where the base runner slid hard into the bag.  That should be fine. (And the umps thought so, too).  I'm not sure, based on those two rulings, how any close slide would be considered legal b/c almost all close plays would result in some form of contact.  

 

Bautista did not just slide hard into the bag - he grabbed the body of the fielder.  Is that something you think is ok?

 

How much contact are runners allowed to have with fielders?  How far does it have to go before you agree it's interference, if you believe it's ok to grab and pull a fielder's leg?

[gunnarthor]

 

Bautista did not just slide hard into the bag - he grabbed the body of the fielder.  Is that something you think is ok?

 

How much contact are runners allowed to have with fielders?  How far does it have to go before you agree it's interference, if you believe it's ok to grab and pull a fielder's leg?

His fingers brushed the guys foot (there was no pull), had no impact on the throw and would in no way injure the fielder.  It's a non-issue. The fact that one could argue, as spycake did, that his actions would have been fine if he had merely accidentally used his arms to trip up the fielder shows the randomness of this rule.  

 

These will always be judgement calls (as are many of baseballs rules) but I would err on the side of not calling something and giving way more deference to the umps on the field than on replay.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

His fingers brushed the guys foot (there was no pull), had no impact on the throw and would in no way injure the fielder.  It's a non-issue. 

 

Holy assumptions.  He grabbed his leg.  Have you ever tried to throw something with someone grabbing your balance leg?  It absolutely could have impacted the throw.  

 

You're trying to have your way which is some kind of bizzaro set of rules at second where runners are allowed to deliberately interfere with fielders and deny what you can see with your eyes to make it true.  Even the other people wanting the bust-up slides in this thread are acknowledging what Bautista did is illegal.

 

What you seem to miss is that the basis for this rule is that no where, other than apparently second base, is a runner given so much deference to interfere with a fielder.  All that's happening is bringing second base to the same playing field as the rest of the bases.

[spinowner]

 

Rule 7.09(d): "It is interference when any batter or runner who has just been put out hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate."

I'm referencing myself so people don't have to scroll back to find this post.

I just don't understand why MLB doesn't simply enforce this rule. It is very clear. No judgement calls about whether another runner would have been safe. No judgement calls about whether the player sliding into second is doing so legally. From the moment a baserunner is out he is not entitled to slide into second. He must effectively disappear.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I'm referencing myself so people don't have to scroll back to find this post.

I just don't understand why MLB doesn't simply enforce this rule. It is very clear. No judgement calls about whether another runner would have been safe. No judgement calls about whether the player sliding into second is doing so legally. From the moment a baserunner is out he is not entitled to slide into second. He must effectively disappear.

Barry Bonds tried to help this effort in his playing days, introducing a substance known as "the clear" which I can only assume was a vanishing cream that could be applied to baserunners once put out.

[ashbury]

Players are injuring each other with the express intent of busting up double plays.

The following video was made a while back, trying to illustrate the difference between a hard slide and a dirty slide. Is it the case that both slides would be called interference now?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-d-cxj6LJM

[USAFChief]

I'm referencing myself so people don't have to scroll back to find this post.

I just don't understand why MLB doesn't simply enforce this rule. It is very clear. No judgement calls about whether another runner would have been safe. No judgement calls about whether the player sliding into second is doing so legally. From the moment a baserunner is out he is not entitled to slide into second. He must effectively disappear.

Because it's not reasonable to expect a runner to anticipate being out? It's not reasonable to expect a runner to " effectively disappear?"

 

And sliding directly into second is probably as close to "disappear" as IS reasonable?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The fact that one could argue, as spycake did, that his actions would have been fine if he had merely accidentally used his arms to trip up the fielder shows the randomness of this rule.  

I argued no such thing, you are taking that comment of mine out of context.  I merely was trying to point out that the new rule doesn't ban contact per se -- it bans poor slides (i.e. ones that take you very far and well past the base).

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

My thinking is that that part of the old rule was never enforced and what this new rule is trying to do is make sure slides like Utley's don't happen.

I agree with that, and really if that is the goal, this is the minimum rule that they had to establish.

 

Players will always push boundaries, and if you allow players to slide well out of the way and past the base to contact the fielder, you're basically only one degree of separation from an Utley slide and players will still attempt them, with the hope that their butt hits the ground early enough or whatever other criteria specified by the alternate rule is met.

 

To really reduce the Utley incidents, you want the rule to ban activities with a couple degrees of separation from such incidents.  And banning slides that wind up nowhere near the base is a logical place to achieve that.

[ThejacKmp]

I had my daughters first K-1 track practice Monday (as a coach). One of the girls told me she didn't want to run.

 

So I agree with Mike. We are giving a little too much credit here. Somewhere between tee ball and the big's this is learned though.

They do track for 5 and 6 year olds? That's both frightening and amazing and then frightening again.

[tobi0040]

 

The following video was made a while back, trying to illustrate the difference between a hard slide and a dirty slide. Is it the case that both slides would be called interference now?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-d-cxj6LJM

 

I would think both would be called out.  Neither is a baseball move in my opinion.  If you end up five feet past second on your slide you weren't trying to advance to 2B, you were trying to take the guy out and disrupt the throw to first.

 

Totally okay with me, BTW

[tobi0040]

 

They do track for 5 and 6 year olds? That's both frightening and amazing and then frightening again.

 

Come out to the burbs. It is crazy how young they start everything, football, hockey, track, Lacrosse.

 

My other   observation is the high school kids are huge. The first track practice was ran by the HS team, several of the guys also were on the hockey team.  I could not believe how big they were.

I was a fairly decent high school hockey player and graduated in 2001.  Probably 5-9 and 160 my senior year.  These guys were all 6 feet, close to 2 bills and built. They look like a buddy of mine when he was 20, playing college hockey after two years in a college weight and conditioning program. It is another world.

[spinowner]

 

Because it's not reasonable to expect a runner to anticipate being out? It's not reasonable to expect a runner to " effectively disappear?"

And sliding directly into second is probably as close to "disappear" as IS reasonable?

In many, if not most, cases there's no anticipation necessary. A runner coming into second base can see if and when he is out. In the case of the Bautista play he knew he was out before he made any move with his left hand. While it's true in cases where the play is close that the player has to begin his slide before being forced out he must do everything he can to avoid the player at the base once he's out.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The following video was made a while back, trying to illustrate the difference between a hard slide and a dirty slide. Is it the case that both slides would be called interference now?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-d-cxj6LJM

 

I would say yes and I'm glad to see that.  The second "hard slide" isn't making any effort to be safe, only to impact the fielder's ability to field.  

 

And think about any other situation in baseball - do we allow that?  Do we allow someone to barrel into the first baseman?  Or slap at a glove? 

 

Only at second do we have some kind of bizarre set of different rules in which players think interference should be legal.  Why is that?

[spinowner]

 

And think about any other situation in baseball - do we allow that?  Do we allow someone to barrel into the first baseman?  Or slap at a glove? 

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/e/ea/A_Rod_purse.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20060814062619

[biggentleben]

 

Come out to the burbs. It is crazy how young they start everything, football, hockey, track, Lacrosse.

 

My other   observation is the high school kids are huge. The first track practice was ran by the HS team, several of the guys also were on the hockey team.  I could not believe how big they were.

I was a fairly decent high school hockey player and graduated in 2001.  Probably 5-9 and 160 my senior year.  These guys were all 6 feet, close to 2 bills and built. They look like a buddy of mine when he was 20, playing college hockey after two years in a college weight and conditioning program. It is another world.

 

And people say there's only steroids that could turn baseball players into power hitters...

[tobi0040]

 

And people say there's only steroids that could turn baseball players into power hitters...

 

The guys told me they thought they were taking flaxseed oil.

[TheLeviathan]

 

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/e/ea/A_Rod_purse.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20060814062619

 

Right, you do that and you get crucified but if you slide and grab a guy's leg as he throws you are perfectly in the right.

 

I just don't get why 2nd base doesn't follow the same rules.

[TheLeviathan]

Another good call.

[gunnarthor]

Yeah, I saw the Astros call.  Looks like MLB wants the game played in a different way.  That's too bad but it is what it is.  Hopefully, the push back by players and fans changes this but this rule certainly seems to affecting the game a lot more than I thought it would.

[TheLeviathan]

Slide to the base and don't interfere with fielders.  Second base should be played with the same rules as every other base.

[ashbury]

Slide to the base and don't interfere with fielders.  Second base should be played with the same rules as every other base.

The nature of each of the bases is different. Why might the rules regarding them not be different?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Agree ashburyjohn. The only "normal" base is probably third base.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The nature of each of the bases is different. Why might the rules regarding them not be different?

 

Is there some other base where you are allowed to interfere with someone throwing the ball to another fielder?