REPORT: Former Minnesota Twin Delmon Young Arrested In Miami

[Thrylos]

Here is another write up, and you cannot make that headline up:

 

Former Twins outfielder charged with battery

 

(Really? I thought that he was plug in...)

[David HK]

 

  On 2/8/2016 at 8:30 PM, Boom Boom said:

Who hasn't answered the door to the police wearing nothing below the waist? Happens to me all the time.

Does a tool belt count as below the waist?

Fashion choices galore.

[Otto von Ballpark]

  On 2/8/2016 at 10:03 PM, nicksaviking said:

I agree, I preferred to keep Garza due to him being a pitcher with high upside, but I wasn't upset, and quickly got excited about Young's huge potential.

 

But also of note, while it's easy to say the Twins perhaps should have done more investigating to notice Young's red flags, perhaps they did. Let's not forget that the Twins already had concerns about Garza's attitude and his insistence on doing things his way. I personally didn't like the Twins approach to pitching back during that time, but it doesn't change the fact that both the Twins and the Rays might have considered the trade one of those "change of scenery" deals that might work out for all parties.

 

Obviously it didn't, but that might have been the thinking. Garza too has had some, let's say un-PC issues. The Twins may have just guessed that Garza was more of a loose canon and guessed wrong, but not by much.

But remember, Rob Antony was on record as preferring RBIs to slugging percentage a full two years after the Delmon deal. I think it is highly likely the Twins were overrating Delmon's rookie batting line.

 

Also, it wasn't just a Delmon for Garza swap. That would have been better than the actual trade, which saw Bartlett (a capable starting shortstop) swapped for a utility guy too. There's no question in my mind that the Twins thought they were getting a lot more than a change of scenery guy in Delmon.

[tobi0040]

  On 2/9/2016 at 2:53 AM, spycake said:

But remember, Rob Antony was on record as preferring RBIs to slugging percentage a full two years after the Delmon deal. I think it is highly likely the Twins were overrating Delmon's rookie batting line.

 

Also, it wasn't just a Delmon for Garza swap. That would have been better than the actual trade, which saw Bartlett (a capable starting shortstop) swapped for a utility guy too. There's no question in my mind that the Twins thought they were getting a lot more than a change of scenery guy in Delmon.

Are you suggesting PR guys should not play a role in personnel decisions?

[drjim]

 

  On 2/9/2016 at 2:53 AM, spycake said:

But remember, Rob Antony was on record as preferring RBIs to slugging percentage a full two years after the Delmon deal. I think it is highly likely the Twins were overrating Delmon's rookie batting line.

Also, it wasn't just a Delmon for Garza swap. That would have been better than the actual trade, which saw Bartlett (a capable starting shortstop) swapped for a utility guy too. There's no question in my mind that the Twins thought they were getting a lot more than a change of scenery guy in Delmon.

 

They were absolutely overrating Delmon's batting line, huge red flags throughout on walk rate, a ISO power that didn't really match his tools (they often talked about his loud bp), and obvious questions about his defense.

 

I always thought this was a classic trade that was made that showed how behind the Twins were relative to the Rays on some statistical stuff that would be considered pretty basic now but were just starting to go mainstream at that time.

 

The counter is that he had just played 162 games and held his own at 21. A higher character guy probably puts up more than one good season with that talent.

 

I also wonder if Ryan would have ever traded a SP and SS for a corner OF. I have my doubts.

[USAFChief]

"The victim was able to free himself and Young left the scene but when the police caught up with Young at his residence, Young answered the door "naked from the waist down" and used more racial slurs while being arrested shortly thereafter."

In my youth, we referred to this move as a "meat n greet."








Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[D. Hocking]

 

  On 2/9/2016 at 5:05 AM, USAFChief said:

"The victim was able to free himself and Young left the scene but when the police caught up with Young at his residence, Young answered the door "naked from the waist down" and used more racial slurs while being arrested shortly thereafter."

In my youth, we referred to this move as a "meat n greet."

 

In your youth people were just starting to wear clothes - so it would have been much more common.

[DaveW]

 

  On 2/9/2016 at 3:52 AM, drjim said:

They were absolutely overrating Delmon's batting line, huge red flags throughout on walk rate, a ISO power that didn't really match his tools (they often talked about his loud bp), and obvious questions about his defense.

 

I always thought this was a classic trade that was made that showed how behind the Twins were relative to the Rays on some statistical stuff that would be considered pretty basic now but were just starting to go mainstream at that time.

 

The counter is that he had just played 162 games and held his own at 21. A higher character guy probably puts up more than one good season with that talent.

 

I also wonder if Ryan would have ever traded a SP and SS for a corner OF. I have my doubts.

Hindsight is always 20/20 but there is a reason why he was the #1 prospect in baseball, as a 19-20 year old he absolutely mashed in the higher levels of the minors.

I don't want to compare him to Buxton since Buxton has a higher floor, but just imagine what it would take in a trade to ship Buxton out..

 

I agree though, giving up Bartlett seemed dumb at the time.

[drjim]

 

  On 2/9/2016 at 2:50 PM, DaveW said:

Hindsight is always 20/20 but there is a reason why he was the #1 prospect in baseball, as a 19-20 year old he absolutely mashed in the higher levels of the minors.

I don't want to compare him to Buxton since Buxton has a higher floor, but just imagine what it would take in a trade to ship Buxton out..

 

I agree though, giving up Bartlett seemed dumb at the time.

 

Fair point and also why I don't think it is fair to necessarily kill the Twins for the deal at the time.

 

That said, prospect rankings, while far from perfect, have also gotten much, much better in the last decade precisely because of getting burned by guys like Young. He had amazing tools and talent, but statistically there were enough red flags that would get caught now to reduce his value/rankings.

 

And I'll stand by the point that the Rays were savvy enough to catch and know this at the time while a lagging team like the Twins got burned.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

  On 2/9/2016 at 2:50 PM, DaveW said:

Hindsight is always 20/20 but there is a reason why he was the #1 prospect in baseball, as a 19-20 year old he absolutely mashed in the higher levels of the minors.

Not quite.  He had a ~160 ISO in AAA, and a ~3% walk rate.  That's not mashing given his profile and his success at A/AA, that's regression.  He was the #1 prospect in baseball because he was a #1 pick who mashed at A and AA, but the more he played at AAA and MLB, his rank actually dropped.

 

 

By the time the Twins traded for him, he was a full 2 years removed from being #1.  Brendan Harris, Dioner Navarro, and Akinori Iwamura were just a few of the Rays that had higher isolated power figures than Young that previous season.  And Young didn't show any positive progression either, his isolated power actually steadily dropped from his first taste of MLB in 2006, to his first half in 2007, to the second half of 2007.  (Add Josh Wilson and Greg Norton to the list of Rays players who showed more power in the second half of 2007 than Delmon Young.)

 

By the time the Twins traded for him, it was abundantly clear he needed fixing.  Which given his pedigree might have been a defensible gamble in a straight-up Garza-Young swap, but that's not the trade we made.  The Twins traded for Young as if his previous season didn't exist (or more likely, put outsized importance on those 93 RBI as rookie).

 

[tobi0040]

 

  On 2/9/2016 at 4:16 PM, spycake said:

Not quite.  He had a ~160 ISO in AAA, and a ~3% walk rate.  That's not mashing given his profile and his success at A/AA, that's regression.  He was the #1 prospect in baseball because he was a #1 pick who mashed at A and AA, but the more he played at AAA and MLB, his rank actually dropped.

 

 

By the time the Twins traded for him, he was a full 2 years removed from being #1.  Brendan Harris, Dioner Navarro, and Akinori Iwamura were just a few of the Rays that had higher isolated power figures than Young that previous season.  And Young didn't show any positive progression either, his isolated power actually steadily dropped from his first taste of MLB in 2006, to his first half in 2007, to the second half of 2007.  (Add Josh Wilson and Greg Norton to the list of Rays players who showed more power in the second half of 2007 than Delmon Young.)

 

By the time the Twins traded for him, it was abundantly clear he needed fixing.  Which given his pedigree might have been a defensible gamble in a straight-up Garza-Young swap, but that's not the trade we made.  The Twins traded for Young as if his previous season didn't exist (or more likely, put outsized importance on those 93 RBI as rookie).

 

Here is a pretty comical interview after the Young trade, he brought up RBI three times. In that 2007 season with the 93 RBI, Young hit .349 with runners in scoring position with a BABIP of .386.  That is 65 basis points higher than his career average of .320. 

 

On a very related note, Bill Smith talked about his degree in French and unusual path to a career in baseball. 

 

Q and A:

 

kilsey: Are you pleased with the changes made during the offseason?
 

Smith: In general, yes. We think they are going to provide immediate benefits this year and also long term benefits for the franchise.
 

Smith: Delmon Young is going to be one of the premiere hitters in the American League.

jaiskies: 3) What do you project Delmon Young doing in the next couple of seasons?
 

Smith: Last year, Delmon had 13 home runs and 93 RBI in Tampa Bay. As a 21 year old.
 

Smith: We expect him to continue to improve as a hitter and start to show more power. He has the ability to hit 30 plus home runs and drive in 100 plus runs for a long time.

chiungod: Do you have any answers for Delmon Young's questionable plate discipline (0.18 career BB/K ratio)?
 

Smith: The answer is experience at the Major League level. We are excited to get a 22 year old who played 162 games in the Majors last year and drove in 93 runs. the rest will come with experience.

 

 

http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/print.jsp?ymd=20080417&content_id=2541222&vkey=news_min&fext=.jsp&c_id=min

[jimmer]

Demon Young choked a guy? Must have broken one of the unwritten rules. Papelbom endorses Young's actions! :-)

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

  On 2/9/2016 at 5:03 PM, tobi0040 said:

Here is a pretty comical interview after the Young trade, he brought up RBI three times.

 

Interesting, thanks! It appears they also valued Delmon's durability, even though he was accumulating negative value...

[tobi0040]

 

  On 2/9/2016 at 5:49 PM, spycake said:

Interesting, thanks! It appears they also valued Delmon's durability, even though he was accumulating negative value...

 

He actually has a negative 3 career WAR according to BRef.  1,100 games and 10 seasons and he cost his team.

[ScrapTheNickname]

 

  On 2/8/2016 at 8:28 PM, theBOMisthebomb said:

This might be the ony Twin I have ever booed and now I wish I would have booed louder.

Oh come on you boo'd Luke Hughes and Kubler TOO!

 

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

  On 2/9/2016 at 5:03 PM, tobi0040 said:

Here is a pretty comical interview after the Young trade, he brought up RBI three times. In that 2007 season with the 93 RBI, Young hit .349 with runners in scoring position with a BABIP of .386.  That is 65 basis points higher than his career average of .320. 

 

On a very related note, Bill Smith talked about his degree in French and unusual path to a career in baseball. 

 

Q and A:

 

kilsey: Are you pleased with the changes made during the offseason?

 

Smith: In general, yes. We think they are going to provide immediate benefits this year and also long term benefits for the franchise.

 

Smith: Delmon Young is going to be one of the premiere hitters in the American League.

jaiskies: 3) What do you project Delmon Young doing in the next couple of seasons?

 

Smith: Last year, Delmon had 13 home runs and 93 RBI in Tampa Bay. As a 21 year old.

 

Smith: We expect him to continue to improve as a hitter and start to show more power. He has the ability to hit 30 plus home runs and drive in 100 plus runs for a long time.

chiungod: Do you have any answers for Delmon Young's questionable plate discipline (0.18 career BB/K ratio)?

 

Smith: The answer is experience at the Major League level. We are excited to get a 22 year old who played 162 games in the Majors last year and drove in 93 runs. the rest will come with experience.

 

 

http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/print.jsp?ymd=20080417&content_id=2541222&vkey=news_min&fext=.jsp&c_id=min

I'm really not sure this proves a fixation on RBIs. He's talking about Young's production in TB and thinking it can improve. RBIs do win games at the end of it. That doesn't mean this was the main criterion for evaluation.

[tobi0040]

 

  On 2/9/2016 at 7:18 PM, diehardtwinsfan said:

I'm really not sure this proves a fixation on RBIs. He's talking about Young's production in TB and thinking it can improve. RBIs do win games at the end of it. That doesn't mean this was the main criterion for evaluation.

 

It comes back to production.  Is production RBI's in one season, driven by high BA and BABIP with runners on (115 AB's total) and games played?  Is production games played?  Is 13 HR meaningful out of a corner OF?

 

I think legitimate questions could have been raised about his BB's, slugging, sustainability of the RBI's, even his defense.

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

  On 2/9/2016 at 7:18 PM, diehardtwinsfan said:

I'm really not sure this proves a fixation on RBIs. He's talking about Young's production in TB and thinking it can improve. RBIs do win games at the end of it. That doesn't mean this was the main criterion for evaluation.

How were past RBIs meaningful to Young's future, though?  That was the context of the discussion.

 

Combined with Rob Antony's preference for RBIs over slugging percentage dated 2010, and the very high cost of players we surrendered in the trade, and I think that's pretty strong circumstantial evidence that RBIs (and games played, batting average, the sound of the ball of his bat, etc.) were probably given outsized importance in the Twins evaluation of Young at the time of the trade.

[jokin]

 

  On 2/8/2016 at 7:49 PM, ChiTownTwinsFan said:

Right, his violent behavior definitely should be. But you were the one who questioned it.

 

Anyway ... it's perhaps not a slur in the 'traditional' sense, but context is important and it's not the first time he's responded this way, both in the violence and the curses towards a specific ethnicity of an individual. How'd he know the guy was Cuban? There are certainly at the very least racist overtones in that for me.

 

Marco Rubio, Yasiel Puig, Tony Oliva, Desi Arnaz, Steven Bauer, William Levy are all of Cuban nationality and/or descent- but are of wildly different racial backgrounds.

 

Calling someone an "(insert pejorative) Cuban" is equivalent to someone calling a citizen of the US a "(insert pejorative) American."

 

Nothing to do with making an automatic assumption of "racist overtones", more like another demonstration of Delmon's ignorance.  Cuban-ex-pats and those of Cuban descent make up more than one-third of all Miami residents- and they are comprised of multiple racial and ethnic backgrounds.

 

Given his demonstrated past transgressions against certain ethnicities, perhaps Delmon's slur was directed against a relative of William Levy?