Winds of Winter

[gunnarthor]

Kind of a bummer but it looks like the next GOT book will not be released before season six of the HBO show. 

 

http://io9.gizmodo.com/therell-be-no-winds-of-winter-before-game-of-thrones-se-1750681299

 

On the plus side, it seems to suggest that the book will probably be released this year.

[TheLeviathan]

Dude wrote himself into a mess and can't write himself out of it.  

 

It's sad that the series may get doomed by his own self-indulgent writing.

[diehardtwinsfan]

well that sucks...  was looking forward to reading it.  Guess I'll see most of it before I read it.

[Mike Sixel]

I'm not sure I'll even read the rest of them.....that last one slogged with a hundred pages for a character who did nothing to advance the plot at all.......

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'm not sure I'll even read the rest of them.....that last one slogged with a hundred pages for a character who did nothing to advance the plot at all.......

 

Blasphemy!  

 

Don't bring that reasonable, correct take over to ASOIF or any of the book sites.  You'll be lucky if you aren't made into an effigy to their own red god GRRM.

 

Dude totally lost his narrative.  I'm not surprised at all he can't find it again.  He wandered off the path into the woods and now he's lost in the woods.  At his age we may never see him find the path again and go back to what was a brilliant series the first three books.

[Mike Sixel]

Just let Guy Kay finish it, and write short stories in the world.....

[TheLeviathan]

(Possible spoilers here?)

 

You know what the worst part is?  I bet, now that the show is getting a reaction (negatively) for some of the choices, that he's going to alter his plan.

 

Shireen is the one that really stands out.  She was going to be burned by Stannis in the book.  It was going to happen.  But now?  I could see him altering it so that his readers feel it "fits" better.  So his own meandering writing has let the show catch him and now I feel like the written work will never be the true, authentic product.  Or at least I have serious doubts.

[gunnarthor]

 

(Possible spoilers here?)

 

You know what the worst part is?  I bet, now that the show is getting a reaction (negatively) for some of the choices, that he's going to alter his plan.

 

Shireen is the one that really stands out.  She was going to be burned by Stannis in the book.  It was going to happen.  But now?  I could see him altering it so that his readers feel it "fits" better.  So his own meandering writing has let the show catch him and now I feel like the written work will never be the true, authentic product.  Or at least I have serious doubts.

I'm not sure one way or the other.  I also don't care that much.  I've enjoyed the series and I like the rambling nature of it but he's certainly not the best author out there.  But he's created a pretty interesting and enjoyable world.  His "Dunk and Egg" stories were nice and light and enjoying.  

 

Comparing the books to the TV show will always be a problem because of the limitations of each medium.  The TV show was (rightly) condemned last year for their misogynistic bent and the producers say they'll fix that this year.  I'm sure the next book will wander, esp above the wall, and highlight characters not even in the series.  I'll watch and read both.

[Mike Sixel]

 

(Possible spoilers here?)

 

You know what the worst part is?  I bet, now that the show is getting a reaction (negatively) for some of the choices, that he's going to alter his plan.

 

Shireen is the one that really stands out.  She was going to be burned by Stannis in the book.  It was going to happen.  But now?  I could see him altering it so that his readers feel it "fits" better.  So his own meandering writing has let the show catch him and now I feel like the written work will never be the true, authentic product.  Or at least I have serious doubts.

 

Hard to say.....I am highly conflicted on how I feel about the Shireen thing. But I don't know if GRRM will change his plans or not.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'm not sure one way or the other.  I also don't care that much.  I've enjoyed the series and I like the rambling nature of it but he's certainly not the best author out there.  But he's created a pretty interesting and enjoyable world.  His "Dunk and Egg" stories were nice and light and enjoying.  

 

Comparing the books to the TV show will always be a problem because of the limitations of each medium.  The TV show was (rightly) condemned last year for their misogynistic bent and the producers say they'll fix that this year.  I'm sure the next book will wander, esp above the wall, and highlight characters not even in the series.  I'll watch and read both.

 

I agree, I look at it a lot like you do except for not so much caring for the last two books.  They were alright, but my expectations were set high by the first three books and let down rather hard by what we got.  I'll still read whatever he produces for the series, however.

 

On the other issue, I think the TV show got more crap than it deserved.  Most of the misogyny is in the books too, hell it's one of the themes.  (The cost of war and power struggling between men and the effect it has on women)  The Sansa scene deserved harsh criticism certainly, but otherwise the truth is that the book's raping and defiling of women is just as bad.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

Hard to say.....I am highly conflicted on how I feel about the Shireen thing. But I don't know if GRRM will change his plans or not.

 

GRRM likes to take historic moments or old stories and weave the themes and high points into his own characters.  Stannis is, for all intents and purposes, Martin's Agamemnon.

 

Shireen was always going to die.

[Mike Sixel]

 

GRRM likes to take historic moments or old stories and weave the themes and high points into his own characters.  Stannis is, for all intents and purposes, Martin's Agamemnon.

 

Shireen was always going to die.

 

I agree with that........she was going to die. I just don't know how I felt about it in the tv show.....

[TheLeviathan]

It was hard to watch.  They accomplished making that heart wrenching for sure.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I agree, I look at it a lot like you do except for not so much caring for the last two books.  They were alright, but my expectations were set high by the first three books and let down rather hard by what we got.  I'll still read whatever he produces for the series, however.

 

On the other issue, I think the TV show got more crap than it deserved.  Most of the misogyny is in the books too, hell it's one of the themes.  (The cost of war and power struggling between men and the effect it has on women)  The Sansa scene deserved harsh criticism certainly, but otherwise the truth is that the book's raping and defiling of women is just as bad.  

 

I'm kind of with you on that. HBO for the most part tuned down the misogyny from the books, but at the same time, that was pretty common with that type of culture during the middle ages and it was certainly was common in the culture GRRM built for GOT.  I'm fine if they simply wanted to not film it, but let's not rewrite an entire culture based on what we feel it should be.  That leaves for a lot of really boring stories in many ways.

 

At one point, we have to accept an artistic license there and not assume it's someone's agenda to degrade women. The Sansa scene was harsh, but it also portrayed the type of person Ramsay Bolton really was (and even this was toned down from the books as they took out many of his other exploits).  I'm more annoyed that they simply removed Jeyne Pool's role here as fake Arya and simply conflated Sansa's character into this.  Sansa in the book was a 'stupid little girl' (her words), but she was smart enough to learn and adapt. The one in the movie never does that.  She just gets crapped on repeatedly.  I won't argue in that it probably didn't need to be filmed... it certainly could have been talked about at a later time as opposed to shown, but I get the impression it's fairly instrumental to the plot moving the show forward.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Side note... the question I really want to know is if John Snow was really Lyanna's son (though I suppose anyone who would know is now dead).

[TheLeviathan]

 

Side note... the question I really want to know is if John Snow was really Lyanna's son (though I suppose anyone who would know is now dead).

 

I think that's pretty much a given at this point.

[gunnarthor]

 

Side note... the question I really want to know is if John Snow was really Lyanna's son (though I suppose anyone who would know is now dead).

Yeah, he's the son. It'll be revealed either through Bran witnessing it at the God's Eye through the Weirtrees or Howland Reed telling people.

 

The other question is whether Jon has a twin sister who grew up with Reed, which would explain why her exact age isn't in the back of the books and why Howland never visited Winterfell but often wrote private letters to Ned.  It would also explain why Alfie Allen said there was a "star wars" like plot twist.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

 

On the other issue, I think the TV show got more crap than it deserved.  Most of the misogyny is in the books too, hell it's one of the themes.  (The cost of war and power struggling between men and the effect it has on women)  The Sansa scene deserved harsh criticism certainly, but otherwise the truth is that the book's raping and defiling of women is just as bad.  

Maybe.  But there aren't that many directly horrible scenes like the show put forward.  Sure, there's a ton of violence and rapes referred to in the books - Khal Drago's sack of the sheep people, for instance.  But I think "Pillar's of the Earth"'s rape scene was much more graphic than anything Martin wrote.  I think it's fair to say there was a difference in how this stuff was presented in print and tv and HBO went a bit too far into the shock value.  The toughest parts of the book - in my opinion - were the Red Viper's death and the Red Wedding.

 

And it's not quite the same to say something happened and to show that something.  In "Gladiator", for example, Russell Crowe's son was crucified and died crying.  Had they actually shown that, instead of just saying it happened, it would have been a very different movie.

 

HBO went too far with the treatment of women and I don't think Sansa's rape was the only indefensible part.  We didn't need 5 minutes of shaming naked Cercei.  She also wasn't raped by her brother in the books, just the TV show.  We didn't need to see a child tortured for minutes (and the story telling before hand was so heavy handed that we all knew it was coming, which was a second issue).  The sand snakes were useless and used as eye candy.  While the sexuality of several dornish women is a big theme in the books, the tv show seemed to just want to put a naked 19 year old girl on camera.  Robb Stark's wife in not only murdered in the show, but she is pregnant and stabbed in the stomach.  Rose's death required one last bit of nudity.  While the books show a lot of problems not being a rich guy in Westeros, the show seems only able to show how it affects young (usually good looking) women and girls, who are forced to sell their bodies or be victims.  Again, there are major limits to a TV show but I do think the show could have either done a better job of dealing with these things or omitting some outright.  (It also hurts the show that neither Arya or Danny are quite as good in the show as they are in the books).

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Side note... the question I really want to know is if John Snow was really Lyanna's son (though I suppose anyone who would know is now dead).

Jon has to be alive or it's one of Martin's worst bits of storytelling in the entire series.

 

If Jon is dead, his entire story arc is pointless. He's a character that wanders around for five books and dies. His only legacy is bringing people south of the wall and that's not much of a story arc.

 

If Martin needlessly erases a character he tricked audiences into caring about for damned near 5,000 pages, he deserves to be taken to task for it. That's horrible storytelling and betrays reader trust even more than previous deaths did earlier in the series.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Maybe.  But there aren't that many directly horrible scenes like the show put forward.  Sure, there's a ton of violence and rapes referred to in the books - Khal Drago's sack of the sheep people, for instance.  But I think "Pillar's of the Earth"'s rape scene was much more graphic than anything Martin wrote.  I think it's fair to say there was a difference in how this stuff was presented in print and tv and HBO went a bit too far into the shock value.  The toughest parts of the book - in my opinion - were the Red Viper's death and the Red Wedding.

 

HBO went too far with the treatment of women and I don't think Sansa's rape was the only indefensible part.  We didn't need 5 minutes of shaming naked Cercei.  She also wasn't raped by her brother in the books, just the TV show.  We didn't need to see a child tortured for minutes (and the story telling before hand was so heavy handed that we all knew it was coming, which was a second issue).  The sand snakes were useless and used as eye candy.  While the sexuality of several dornish women is a big theme in the books, the tv show seemed to just want to put a naked 19 year old girl on camera.  Robb Stark's wife in not only murdered in the show, but she is pregnant and stabbed in the stomach.  Rose's death required one last bit of nudity.  While the books show a lot of problems not being a rich guy in Westeros, the show seems only able to show how it affects young (usually good looking) women and girls, who are forced to sell their bodies or be victims.  Again, there are major limits to a TV show but I do think the show could have either done a better job of dealing with these things or omitting some outright.  (It also hurts the show that neither Arya or Danny are quite as good in the show as they are in the books).

 

Most of this speaks to your own point about the differences in media.  When you read something for a second or two it isn't the same as seeing it.  Just as the Viper's death was hard to read, it was even worse to watch.  You're shaming the TV show for basically being a TV show.  It can't make the violence and rape seem softer by mentioning it in passing, it has to show it to you or not do it at all.  I agree, add the Sand Snakes to the Sansa rape as totally unnecessary.  The Rose death probably too.  But other than that it might actually be MORE tame than Martin.

 

In fact, let me pose a question to you:  What's more misogynistic, the writer who shows you the pain of a woman who is the victim and the nudity involved but concentrates on the victim rather than the rapist, or the write who basically ignores all the victims and concentrates on the rapists.

 

You could argue the show is doing more service to show the ramifications for victims than the books.  Most of Martin's most brutal victims are barely more than side characters who are there to be little more than rape fodder for point of view characters or major players in the books.  I don't think that was Martin's intention, but it certainly was the result.

 

This is actually an interesting read on the subject that touches on this. I know I as a book reader usually don't visualize the horror of what I'm reading quite as vividly as a TV show can produce it for me.  Certainly my reaction to Oberyn's death was some proof of that.  To the book I was sad and disappointed....to the show I was shocked and horrified.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Jon has to be alive or it's one of Martin's worst bits of storytelling in the entire series.

 

If Jon is dead, his entire story arc is pointless. He's a character that wanders around for five books and dies. His only legacy is bringing people south of the wall and that's not much of a story arc.

 

If Martin needlessly erases a character he tricked audiences into caring about for damned near 5,000 pages, he deserves to be taken to task for it. That's horrible storytelling and betrays reader trust even more than previous deaths did earlier in the series.

 

I wasn't really referring to Snow's 'death' (agree completely here as I'll be very disappointed if he's really dead) as much as the fact that if Ned never bothered telling Catlyn the truth (which I personally would have trouble believing) and Ned is dead. Yeah, I could see Bran figuring it out via his newfound skills, but that doesn't do really anyone else any good.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Most of this speaks to your own point about the differences in media.  When you read something for a second or two it isn't the same as seeing it.  Just as the Viper's death was hard to read, it was even worse to watch.  You're shaming the TV show for basically being a TV show.  It can't make the violence and rape seem softer by mentioning it in passing, it has to show it to you or not do it at all.  I agree, add the Sand Snakes to the Sansa rape as totally unnecessary.  The Rose death probably too.  But other than that it might actually be MORE tame than Martin.

 

In fact, let me pose a question to you:  What's more misogynistic, the writer who shows you the pain of a woman who is the victim and the nudity involved but concentrates on the victim rather than the rapist, or the write who basically ignores all the victims and concentrates on the rapists.

 

You could argue the show is doing more service to show the ramifications for victims than the books.  Most of Martin's most brutal victims are barely more than side characters who are there to be little more than rape fodder for point of view characters or major players in the books.  I don't think that was Martin's intention, but it certainly was the result.

 

This is actually an interesting read on the subject that touches on this. I know I as a book reader usually don't visualize the horror of what I'm reading quite as vividly as a TV show can produce it for me.  Certainly my reaction to Oberyn's death was some proof of that.  To the book I was sad and disappointed....to the show I was shocked and horrified.

Oberyn's death was hard to watch b/c I read the books and knew what was coming.  He was in a fight to the death and was winning, so seeing it was pretty bad... but yeah, when we get into misogyny and what not, that stuff can be spun in so many different ways (pro and con) that I just don't see the point in arguing it.  At one point I think you have to simply enjoy the story and not read into it.

 

I can certainly see some of the complaints (though Sansa's rape wasn't shown per say, just heard, though I suspect that had more to do with her character being 15 years old than anything else). 

 

But if you want to look at misogyny, I'd look closer at HBO (and it's audience). People don't want to see unattractive people naked. No one wants to see the Lolly's Stokeworth rape (at least based on Martin's description of the character), which may have more reason as to why that one was left out.

[gunnarthor]

 

Most of this speaks to your own point about the differences in media.  When you read something for a second or two it isn't the same as seeing it.  Just as the Viper's death was hard to read, it was even worse to watch.  You're shaming the TV show for basically being a TV show.  It can't make the violence and rape seem softer by mentioning it in passing, it has to show it to you or not do it at all.  I agree, add the Sand Snakes to the Sansa rape as totally unnecessary.  The Rose death probably too.  But other than that it might actually be MORE tame than Martin.

 

In fact, let me pose a question to you:  What's more misogynistic, the writer who shows you the pain of a woman who is the victim and the nudity involved but concentrates on the victim rather than the rapist, or the write who basically ignores all the victims and concentrates on the rapists.

 

You could argue the show is doing more service to show the ramifications for victims than the books.  Most of Martin's most brutal victims are barely more than side characters who are there to be little more than rape fodder for point of view characters or major players in the books.  I don't think that was Martin's intention, but it certainly was the result.

 

This is actually an interesting read on the subject that touches on this. I know I as a book reader usually don't visualize the horror of what I'm reading quite as vividly as a TV show can produce it for me.  Certainly my reaction to Oberyn's death was some proof of that.  To the book I was sad and disappointed....to the show I was shocked and horrified.

I don't want to overly discuss this point - we don't agree on baseball's unwritten rules and I don't want to turn this into that thread.  You make some good points and certainly the medium involved affects how the viewer/reader receives that information.  I like the show but thought it was a bit misogynistic for some of the reasons I stated.  But I still liked the show - and most of my dislike with the show was based more on bad story telling/plot lines than an anti-woman theme.   

 

As for Winds of Winter, hopefully it'll come out soon.

[TheLeviathan]

Some of your stated examples certainly deserve criticism.  Whether one thinks they are as bad, worse, or better than say Jeyne Poole is pretty open to opinion.  Not a real pleasant debate either I'd expect.  

 

I just bristle because we seem to have gotten to a point in critiquing things that we get really nitpicky about what we accept and don't accept.  Show watchers are overly harsh on the book and book readers border on needing a straight jacket when talking about the show.  The truth is no show or book is perfect, there are always holes to poke if you choose to.  What I struggle with is people who refuse to accept that both are flawed, it usually turns into whichever one they like more is flawless and the other one is a crapfest of the highest order.

 

It's happening on a lot of things and I think I've just had enough of it.  The misogyny angle is usually one of the first ones.  Then plot.  And both, I'd argue, are major issues in the book too for different reasons,

 

Though the first three books were among my favorite fantasy novels, the last two took a serious step backwards for me.

[Mike Sixel]

right, the last two were not SUPER fun to read for me. Which is too bad.

 

I just finished The Long Earth. Inventive idea, but I had no idea it was part of a 4/5 book series.....sigh. I did quite enjoy it. Just wish it was a short series.

[Mike Sixel]

Odds you read this, if it ever comes out? At this point, I expect it comes out after season 7 on HBO, since it isn't done, and it takes a long time to go from "done writing" to "published".

 

I don't now that I'll read it or not, probably not.

 

I did just read the Magician's trilogy. Quite good, but much more fantasy than GoT.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm getting closer and closer to just not reading it.  I probably will out of hopes that the quality has returned to where it was in the first three books.

 

But given the writing slog it's been, I'm guessing it'll be more like the last two with never-ending plots about Quentyn Martell, a fake Aegon, and what everyone's freaking dinner looks like.

 

The show has made a lot of missteps, but the narrative is likely going to be much tighter and more intriguing when all is said and done.  (Assuming we ever even see a novelized conclusion of the series)

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'd put my chances of reading it at about 80%, which is a huge step down from the 100% chance it had before the show took the story and made it better.

[gunnarthor]

Oh, I'll read all the books.  I'm more likely to give up on the TV series, frankly.  But I won't.  His books can be sprawling but I like that.  

[jimmer]

Concerning the Sansa rape scene in GOT, she wasn't even the character who got raped in the book in that scene, right?  Wasn't it someone being passed off as Arya in the book, one of Arya's friends.  Sansa never went there at that point as far as I remember, but she was such a popular character in the show that they didn't want to have her do nothing so they substituted Sansa in her place.

 

Unless I'm remembering incorrectly.