Sheehan: Mauer should be in the OF

[bluechipper]

The genius Cubs are putting a horrific defender in Kyle Schwarber in the outfield because he isn't great at his natural position and is blocked by a slightly above average player at that position. Sound familiar?

[TheLeviathan]

 

The genius Cubs are putting a horrific defender in Kyle Schwarber in the outfield because he isn't great at his natural position and is blocked by a slightly above average player at that position. Sound familiar?

 

You're going to have to try harder to look at things here.  One - they don't even have the DH option.  Two - they have emphasized defense at other positions.

 

We may be on the cusp of marching out a Sano-Rosario-Arcia outfield with a bunch of flyball pitchers.

 

Also, everyone has said from the outset that Schwarber can't play defense.  There was no mystery about him.  He's out in the OF because there is no mystery about his weaknesses, not because he's being "blocked" by an average 30 year old and a fading former catcher.

[gmarais66]

 

The genius Cubs are putting a horrific defender in Kyle Schwarber in the outfield because he isn't great at his natural position and is blocked by a slightly above average player at that position. Sound familiar?

If the Cubs were able to use a DH, Schwarber would be cemented in that position... And, as I tell my kids, just because someone else is doing it, it doesn't make it right.

[drjim]

I don't want to see Sano in the OF, but I agree with your three points. I think the main point of the article you summed up there in the second to last line.

 

He may be right, and he may be wrong, but he most likely is an objective outsider. When someone doesn't appear to have an agenda and they appear to have strong baseball knowledge, I tend to put credence in their opinion.

I put credence in his opinion but I think the Sano can't handle the OF because of weight is more narrative than reality, and the three primary points he uses to justify the position comfirm that.

 

Trading Plouffe was probably the best solution, but Sano will handle a couple seasons (at most) in the OF just fine and move to 1b when Mauer moves on.

 

Miguel Cabrera is such a perfect comp to this situation it's embarrassing he didn't mention it.

 

Basically the same size. Signed as a SS, played almost all IF in the minors, broke in to the majors for 2.5 years as a corner OF, played next 2 years at 3B, then played almost the rest of his career at 1B (one misguided season aside). Stunted his growth so much he's the best RH hitter of his generation.

[drjim]

You're going to have to try harder to look at things here. One - they don't even have the DH option. Two - they have emphasized defense at other positions.

 

We may be on the cusp of marching out a Sano-Rosario-Arcia outfield with a bunch of flyball pitchers.

 

Also, everyone has said from the outset that Schwarber can't play defense. There was no mystery about him. He's out in the OF because there is no mystery about his weaknesses, not because he's being "blocked" by an average 30 year old and a fading former catcher.

More accurately the Twins are on the cusp of a plus plus defender in CF, a very good corner (Rosario) and Sano. Seems acceptable.

[sane09]

Kyle Rudolph (Vikings TE) is 6'6" 265# and Anthony Barr (Vikings OLB) is 6'5" 255#.

If you think playing OF in MLB requires more athleticism than THEIR jobs, you don'tunderstand the NFL (or MLB).

[Platoon]

Right...kind of lost me at this part....proves that he really doesn't know that much about the Twins to leave Dozier off. Made some good points, but then this took away a lot of his credibility.

Or maybe he couldn't decide which Dozier to analyze? First half BD, or second half BD?

[bluechipper]

 

You're going to have to try harder to look at things here.  One - they don't even have the DH option.  Two - they have emphasized defense at other positions.

 

We may be on the cusp of marching out a Sano-Rosario-Arcia outfield with a bunch of flyball pitchers.

 

Also, everyone has said from the outset that Schwarber can't play defense.  There was no mystery about him.  He's out in the OF because there is no mystery about his weaknesses, not because he's being "blocked" by an average 30 year old and a fading former catcher.

And the Twins don't? Rosario and Buxton are top tier fielders. Plouffe is staying at third largely because he's a good defender.

 

So you're saying that Schwarber is such a terrible defender, that it doesn't matter where they play him? I've read that he could be an average defensive catcher.

[gmarais66]

 

Kyle Rudolph (Vikings TE) is 6'6" 265# and Anthony Barr (Vikings OLB) is 6'5" 255#.
If you think playing OF in MLB requires more athleticism than THEIR jobs, you don'tunderstand the NFL (or MLB).

I don't want to see either one of them trying to track down a fly ball at Target Field.

[TheLeviathan]

 

More accurately the Twins are on the cusp of a plus plus defender in CF, a very good corner (Rosario) and Sano. Seems acceptable.

 

Sure, when Buxton and Rosario are out there it will be more acceptable.  When we see that is a huge question.  I'm not worried so much about Sano being out there as I am the principle of moving him at all for a "meh" 30 year old third baseman.

[TheLeviathan]

 

And the Twins don't? Rosario and Buxton are top tier fielders. Plouffe is staying at third largely because he's a good defender.

 

So you're saying that Schwarber is such a terrible defender, that it doesn't matter where they play him? I've read that he could be an average defensive catcher.

 

Most accounts I've read said he was a catcher more by necessity than by any real skill.

 

And no, the Twins have done a HORRIBLE job putting good fielders out behind their pitchers the last few years.

[bluechipper]

 

Most accounts I've read said he was a catcher more by necessity than by any real skill.

 

And no, the Twins have done a HORRIBLE job putting good fielders out behind their pitchers the last few years.

Actually I agree with you on the second point, but that seems to be changing. Having one below average outfielder paired with two really good ones in an effort to boost the offense seems like a good idea to me.

[Mike Sixel]

IMO, you can get by with one bad OF on defense.......I'm not so worried about Sano out there. I'm worried that Mauer, if he continues to be bad compared to other 1B, will get to keep playing well past when he should. I'm worried that this is part of a larger MO of mediocre veterans blocking even trying out the youth. 

[Platoon]

His point on matching sub standard defensive OF over the years with low SO pitchers is maybe the key point in the whole article. It's not as sexy as arguing about specific moves, or players, but it likely is the most relevant point, as it determines more wins/losses than does one player.

[ashbury]

Moderator's note: To reiterate what I wrote at the top of this thread, I have removed the exact text that followed the summary, because it appears to be a full article that is surely under copyright. I could not find it on-line, so as to provide a link - perhaps it is behind a paywall. The discussion is permissible, we just want to respect intellectual property. Short excerpts are usually OK under fair use if properly cited, likewise summaries such as the one I left standing.

 

I've put out an inquiry, and will make an update if anything changes.

[Dantes929]

Since he listed anecdotal evidence of 250 lbers that have failed I thought I would add to the list.   Though listed at 215 lbs in baseball reference it is considered by many that Babe Ruth was over 250 for much of his career.   Hard to argue that his best defensive position wasn't pitcher and yet not only did they move him to the outfield they also played him in left or right depending on how which side would have the sun in his eyes.    This move obviously wore him out and destroyed his career.   We are left wondering what could have been had he been handled properly.   

 

Ok, seriously,  anyone watching Sano get down the line before his hamstring injury would conclude that he is much faster than Mauer and likely faster than Cuddyer even in his prime and likely faster than any of the guys on the list of 250lb outfielders.     As far as wearing down can someone please explain how standing in the outfield is more physically demanding than crouching at 3rd base or 1st base.   He hurt his hamstring running to first base which I would think make many of you conclude he should never run out ground balls or try to take extra bases.    My opinion is that playing the outfield will keep him loose which will make running the bases less likely to injure him.   I have played 3rd base 1st base and outfield in my life and consider the outfield the least taxing physically and mentally.   I have not seen anyone make a good case that 3rd base or 1st base is more his natural position than the outfield at this point in his life.   Its not like he is Brooks Robinson over there.  

 

In conclusion the only thing that makes this move bad is one simple thing not related to weight, speed, injury or "natural position" and that is "Can he catch fly balls?"

[Han Joelo]

--Buxton running into anyone at full speed--Sano, Adam Brett Walker III, Max Kepler, or my grandmother--will result in an injury.  

 

--I for one am a fan of people, not just numbers.  I like a good narrative better than cold, hard statistical "facts."  I am hoping for an aging Mauer to have a renaissance season, and then retiring on top.  Cuddyer showed the way.

 

--I don't like the Sano to the outfield idea, but it is the most strategic way to field the best possible lineup while at the same time preserving some viable depth at third base.  There just isn't anyone waiting to play third base at a decent level behind Plouffe and Sano.

[DJL44]

 

 

[Mauer]'s probably the most hated athlete in the Twin Cities.

 

If that's true, it is a sad comment on sports fans in the Twin Cities. I am struggling to think of one thing Mauer did to have anyone "hate" him. He didn't drive drunk. He didn't beat his kid with a switch. He never punched out a teammate, fathered kids with multiple women or made bigoted comments in the media.

 

People "hating" Joe Mauer is patently obvious re-directed self-loathing projecting the failures of the hater onto the person who is the most "one of us" combined with envy and jealousy regarding his success.

[Mike Sixel]

[Mauer]'s probably the most hated athlete in the Twin Cities.

 

Not even close.

[Brock Beauchamp]

[Mauer]'s probably the most hated athlete in the Twin Cities.

 

Not even close.

Anyone who dislikes Mauer more than AP needs a serious reality check.

[bird]

 

I would push back to the article in three ways:

 

1. I don't think Mauer is a better athlete than Sano right now. Not close.

 

2. The comparison with 250 lb OFs is instructive, but Sano is younger, has a much stronger arm, and started as a SS, so he should pull it off much more successfully. I thought he should have been playing OF last year.

 

3. I don't really buy that playing a corner OF is going to wear him down so much it will stunt his development. He's 22 for one thing, and is very likely going to DH around 30 games even if there isn't an injury. He'll survive a couple of seasons just fine.

 

The truth is, of course, is that the shadow of Mauer is really handcuffing this team.

 

The rest of it is the same things people have debating up and down, Sheehan may certainly be correct. He may be wrong.

 

 

I'm sorry doc, but there is absolutely *no* room for debate here. You are hereby part of the Twins-Never-Make-A-Mistake crowd. 

[mattkummer]

 

Anyone who dislikes Mauer more than AP needs a serious reality check.

 

I kinda forgot about AP. I'm in Green Bay, you'll have to excuse me.

[SwainZag]

 

I kinda forgot about AP. I'm in Green Bay, you'll have to excuse me.

 

You will more than likely see him twice more this season, let's hope he does something to put him back on your radar

 

But back to the topic.......Mauer created the perfect storm of unreachable goals for himself.  Being from the area, being the fantastic high school athlete, going #1 to the hometown team, producing at high levels early in his career, the batting titles and up through 2009 and winning the MVP.  People always just wanted more out of Mauer, especially when he got the big contract.  Let's not sugar coat it, the last to years were tough to watch....but even if Joe bounced back with a .300/.390/.430 year this upcoming season, people would still complain.  

[sane09]

 

[Mauer]'s probably the most hated athlete in the Twin Cities.

 

Not even close.

The most hated athlete in Minnesota is the Ghost of Nick Punto which still haunts the Metrodome site.

[DocBauer]

On my phone again so I can't like all the posts here that I want to.

 

First off, I am a Joe Mauer fan. And I have supported him before here on TD. I even have the man's jersey. (Yes, a 50 yo grown man with a player jersey. Wonderful gift from my wife. Deal. Lol) Although I only wear it on special occasions as I have a disorder whereby I spill food when I wear white.

 

Mauer is an all time great Twin. A HOF player IMO. But the undeniable fact is that his bat has disappeared the past 2 seasons. Better power in 2015, not saying a lot, better AVG and OB in 2014, but not near his career norms. We're he still catching, his numbers would be fine. But he's not. And unless a turnaround of some sort takes place in '16, he is or soon will be blocking a spot in the lineup for guys like Plouffe, Sano, Arcia, Kepler, Park, Vargas, Walker - all of whom have much greater offensive potential than this new Mauer.

 

It is the job of the Twins organization to put the best team on the field they can in an attempt to win. Whether you always agree with the moves the team makes or not, that is their purpose and attempt. You simply CAN NOT field a player on a regular basis due to loyalty, past accomplishment or contract when another player (s) offers you a better team and a better chance of quality performance and winning.

 

Without a turnaround, Mauer absolutely should be a LH reserve 1B/DH/PH.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The most hated athlete in Minnesota is the Ghost of Nick Punto which still haunts the Metrodome site.

At the new Vikings stadium, they should commemorate the exact spot where Punto got picked off rounding third to close the book on the Twins Metrodome history.

 

(I understand it wasn't the very last play of the game, but Brendan Harris's groundout to short seems less "commemorable")

 

I wonder if they will commemorate any notable Twins locations there?  Home plate (Gladden's run)?  Puckett's HR?

[sane09]

How about the Vikings' Love Boat Crew?

[Halsey Hall]

I wonder if they will commemorate any notable Twins locations there?  Home plate (Gladden's run)?  Puckett's HR?

 

I would hope not!  Nothing to ever remind me of that hump.

[ThejacKmp]

 

While we make fun of the rubes (deservedly) who never miss an opportunity to bash Mauer, call him a wuss, ask why they don't move him back to catcher, etc., there is a larger, valid point.

Souhan has made that point, but he winds up discrediting it when he reverts to going full rube.

 

It's not Mauer's money that's handcuffing the Twins, it's their stubborn insistence that he occupy the #3 spot in the lineup and play 1B every day when there are younger, more productive options in both of those spots. If it's sentimentality that Mauer is "one of us", the Twins need to realize that ship sailed with Mauer a long time ago. He's probably the most hated athlete in the Twin Cities. As Sheehan writes: "Mauer isn't the future; he's barely the present." He's right about this, and the Twins need to adjust accordingly to put their best lineup out there. 

 

Crazy talk. This is a guy whose number will be retired someday. Get some perspective.

 

Joe Mauer is not the most hated athlete in the Twin Cities. Maybe in Twins Daily (well after Casey Fien and John Hicks of course) but not in the Twin Cities. He is still beloved by all kinds of people in MN - I hear frustration and I hear worry but very rarely hatred. If he has a decent year next year (not betting on it but to say he has no chance is also crazy) he will immediately regain his place at the top of the pantheon of Twins.

 

Crazy talk. Crazy talk.

 

 

[ThejacKmp]

 

If that's true, it is a sad comment on sports fans in the Twin Cities. I am struggling to think of one thing Mauer did to have anyone "hate" him. He didn't drive drunk. He didn't beat his kid with a switch. He never punched out a teammate, fathered kids with multiple women or made bigoted comments in the media.

 

People "hating" Joe Mauer is patently obvious re-directed self-loathing projecting the failures of the hater onto the person who is the most "one of us" combined with envy and jealousy regarding his success.

 

Not to mention that no matter the outcome of the rest of his contract, the Twins will have made soooooooo much money off of Joe Mauer's career. So much money. They should call Target Field the House that Joe Built. That contract sucks but it was signed because keeping Mauer "required" a modern stadium.