Article: Ryan, Twins Left Out In The Cold At Winter Meetings

[jimmer]

We need more than a LH RP.  If the organization believes that's all we need, we are in trouble.

 

And we should always be looking to improve any chance we can get.

[jimmer]

Twins did not convert Nathan from a starter to a reliever.  He was already a reliever before we ever got him.

[DaveW]

Nick, what are your thoughts on whether or not it's time for Ryan to step down again?

[Kwak]

Do the Twins have a plan?  Yes.  But it probably isn't:  the same as yours, the one you think it is, or much different than previous plans.  I think they still view pitching as a luxury, bargain-basement veterans as a security blanket, and that additional minor league "experience" is a blessing.  The plan?  Control the budget and somehow repeat 1987.

[Tom Froemming]

 

Nick, what are your thoughts on whether or not it's time for Ryan to step down again?

I'm starting to lean this way too. Reports came out early in the offseason the Pohlads told Ryan he could do whatever he wanted money wise. Gotta take that with a grain of salt, but when that's the message we get what else are we supposed to think other than Ryan is the problem?

[ND-Fan]

I think people way over reacting to what the Twins didn't do or not do at the Winter meetings. The Twins have a lot of options even as they sit now. If they go with May, Jepsen, and Perkins those are three strong arms and proven talent that could be very effective in the bull pen. They all throw above 96 and have reached as high as 98 last fall when they were pitching. Also the Twins have a lot of relief talent down in farm system with some big arms which I think could be called up a lot of teams would have already called up. Look at this past year the Mets took rule 5 draft pickup of Gilmartin and look at year he had and Mets are counting on him for coming year. If these options don't work out they could still go and trade for someone yet this year. I sure don't want the Twins weighed down with some big longterm contracts for relievers that have short life in the majors usually. They need to keep this payroll managed so they can lock up Sano's, Buxtons, Rosario's. and some these future propects coming up because looking at these new contracts being offered now Mauers contract will look pretty small in the near future. We could see for kind of talent we have contracts that will be 300 million plus in near future.

[Dman]

I am kind of with NicksaViking on this one.  I would like to see the Twins use the hard throwers we have in the pen.  Lets see if we can build a pen like KC using the farm.  Odds are the Twins will use May and possibly Duffy in the pen to start the year and they should be solid there.  Then there is Chargois, Burdi, Meyer and Reed that could be ready soon.  Gotta believe one or two will make it up this year.

 

Due to this site and many posters on it I have come around on the spend for good players theory as there is little downside spending to make your team better.  However, I wasn't in love with many of the relievers on the market and felt they got way over paid.  Also it doesn't seem like a great idea to spend major dollars in the pen as it seems like the least bang for your buck.

 

I didn't care for the Boston or Arizona trades for pitching where the cost was extremely high and maybe that is my weak spot as I love the prospects we have more than I probably should.   I just don't see the point of losing that level of prospects for one guy.  I also didn't like what the A's did essentially giving away player for lower ceiling prospects.

 

To me the market at the winter meetings was variable in all the wrong ways for the Twins.  I know several disagree with that as there is money that can and should be spent but I just don't feel like criticizing too much just yet.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Dman

[jimmer]

 

Just what I wanted, another Terry Dump thread.

Nick wrote an article, like he's done many times here as one of the staff writers.  The thing going on the last few days in Major League Baseball was the winter meetings.  This is a Twins site so he wrote about how the Twins didn't complete any transactions during said meetings.  Makes complete sense he would write such an article and complete sense people should discuss lack of transactions by the Twins.  You saw the headline, you could have skipped it altogether.  No one made you click on the story, or read the comments, or make a comment yourself.

Edited December 11, 2015 by jimmer

[brvama]

I'm sorry my comment hit a nerve. First, I read content not headlines to try to get the whole story. Second, I'm not put off by legitimate criticism, but some of the comments fall into the same old tired theme. Third, there seems to be a extremely short memory of moves that were made before the meetings. Finally, I just don't get too bent out of shape over one weeks activity or the lack thereof.

[jimmer]

 

I'm sorry my comment hit a nerve. First, I read content not headlines to try to get the whole story. Second, I'm not put off by legitimate criticism, but some of the comments fall into the same old tired theme. Third, there seems to be a extremely short memory of moves that were made before the meetings. Finally, I just don't get too bent out of shape over one weeks activity or the lack thereof.

No nerve hit, just tired of people complaining about people discussing what's happening with the team during a major event in MLB. Talk about the same old tired theme.

 

In any event, it seems like a good time to discuss the things you sited with fellow posters.  

 

In regards to the moves made before the headlines, IMO, a low-risk signing of a guy to DH who has never played at any professional level is nothing to be too excited about.  We have no idea how he'll perform in the majors and now Sano is pushed to the OF where he hasn't played, likely hurting the OF defense. Signing a backup catcher, while hurting our OF defense, doesn't help much while we still have no quality starting catcher.  

 

Do we have any new starters, besides Sano in RF IF our new DH proves he can hack it in the majors? Even then, Sano was starting, he'd just be starting at a new spot.  So, so far, one new possible starter: Park.  If he can hack it.

 

As far as not getting worked up over a week's inactivity, these meetings are big for getting stuff done.  On top of that, we have a huge historical view of the kind of moves our GM makes overall. How many times has he traded for, or signed, a proven MLB high quality player who was a star at the time he did it?  Do we count Shannon Stewart? I doubt the groaning is really so much about just this one Winter Meeting's worth of Twins inactivity. I believe it's more the feeling many likely get that, under Ryan, we will NEVER make a big slash and that no one even expected us to make any kind of significant move.  I imagine many were dying to be proven wrong.

Edited December 11, 2015 by jimmer

[Darius]

Shocker. He's been doing the same thing every year for the past two decades, with poor results. I would say he's insane (by definition...see previous sentence), but it's the owners of the team. Winning baseball game has never been, and will never be, a priority. It's just gravy.

 

i honestly believe that TR is an excellent baseball mind that has been hamstrung by the Pohlads. It must be extremely frustrating. Maybe equally as frustrating as being a season ticket holder to this multi-decade clown show.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I think people way over reacting to what the Twins didn't do or not do at the Winter meetings. The Twins have a lot of options even as they sit now. If they go with May, Jepsen, and Perkins those are three strong arms and proven talent that could be very effective in the bull pen. They all throw above 96 and have reached as high as 98 last fall when they were pitching. Also the Twins have a lot of relief talent down in farm system with some big arms which I think could be called up a lot of teams would have already called up. Look at this past year the Mets took rule 5 draft pickup of Gilmartin and look at year he had and Mets are counting on him for coming year. If these options don't work out they could still go and trade for someone yet this year. I sure don't want the Twins weighed down with some big longterm contracts for relievers that have short life in the majors usually. They need to keep this payroll managed so they can lock up Sano's, Buxtons, Rosario's. and some these future propects coming up because looking at these new contracts being offered now Mauers contract will look pretty small in the near future. We could see for kind of talent we have contracts that will be 300 million plus in near future.

 

No RP they sign is going to stop them signing those guys you list. That's a super big exaggeration. NONE of them need to be signed in the next 5 years, let alone a few "extra" million going to a RP for 2-3 years making any difference. That's not much of an argument at all. There are other good arguments.....

 

If the plan is to really go with youth, I'm ok with that. But, I have a question:

 

Now, Rogers didn't come up in September....how is he magically ready now? None of those guys came up in September, what will have changed between then and April to make them ready? If they didn't think they were ready then, why would they think they are ready now.

[USAFChief]

Not to mention, didn't TR himself identify bullpen upgrade(s) as the team's highest offseason priority?

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

In the last 10 years........that's what I asked, right?

His name is Trevor May, the 2016 All Star set up man.

[Mike Sixel]

 

His name is Trevor May, the 2016 All Star set up man.

 

Well, I don't think he was a bad starter.....but others might think he is.

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

Well, I don't think he was a bad starter.....but others might think he is.

Ah, my mistake. I would agree that he is not a 'failed' starter.

[dgwills]

I'm not mad about it. Other teams were just not interested in what the Twins were selling. I'm always skeptical about free agent relievers anyways and I think they were overpaid this year. Some of my friends are Tigers fans and for a couple years all they needed was a good bullpen to win a World Series. They signed free agents every year just to see them fail.

[Mike Sixel]

Every FA is overpaid......if you wan't overpay, you won't play. That will greatly constrict your ability to improve your team.

[Dantes929]

I am hoping May starts but if he doesn't then we are talking Jepsen, May and Perkins.    IMO a lot depends on Perkins but if he is good that makes a pretty good three inning group.    Maybe not Wade Davis good but good nonetheless.   Rotation of Santana, Gibson, Duffey, Berrios and MIlone with a pen of Jepsen, May, Perkins,   Hughes, Nolasco, Rogers and Burdi.    Looks to me like an improvement in the rotation and the pen over last year.     Adding Park, Buxton, Sano and Murphy looks like a likely improvement to the offense and slight improvement to the defense.     Now I don't like that we have 8 likely candidates for the rotation and that my favorite (May) is probably going to be an odd man out but I don;t think it is unreasonable that the three that don't make the cut will make serviceable depth for the pen.     I think this is reasonable.   I am an optimist.     Some one can poke holes in this analysis and be reasonable also.  :That's baseball. 

[Mike Sixel]

You really think they'll have 2 rookies in the bullpen to start the year? And why wasn't Rogers up last year, if he's ready this year?

[mazeville]

Ryan himself said that he was disappointed in himself in his performance at the winter meetings this year. 

 

He has his way of doing things. And the first is to go cheap with the bullpen, usually picking up junk on the scrap heap and turning a few of them (Blaine Boyer) into serviceable relievers.

 

I think the Twins' best option remains developing their own relievers. I'm not saying they shouldn't go out and get someone -- and I'm hopeful they'll trade for someone like Drew Storen. But developing the young guys enables the Twins to benefit for many years while those relievers establish their dominance. In theory.

[nicksaviking]

 

You really think they'll have 2 rookies in the bullpen to start the year? And why wasn't Rogers up last year, if he's ready this year?

 

Well I'd like to think that O'Rourke's measly 22 career MLB innings wouldn't be enough for the front office to give him the edge based on experience.

 

They might though.

[Dman]

 

I am hoping May starts but if he doesn't then we are talking Jepsen, May and Perkins.    IMO a lot depends on Perkins but if he is good that makes a pretty good three inning group.    Maybe not Wade Davis good but good nonetheless.   Rotation of Santana, Gibson, Duffey, Berrios and MIlone with a pen of Jepsen, May, Perkins,   Hughes, Nolasco, Rogers and Burdi.    Looks to me like an improvement in the rotation and the pen over last year.     Adding Park, Buxton, Sano and Murphy looks like a likely improvement to the offense and slight improvement to the defense.     Now I don't like that we have 8 likely candidates for the rotation and that my favorite (May) is probably going to be an odd man out but I don;t think it is unreasonable that the three that don't make the cut will make serviceable depth for the pen.     I think this is reasonable.   I am an optimist.     Some one can poke holes in this analysis and be reasonable also.  :That's baseball. 

 

Although for the most part I like your starting pitching lineup I don't think that is what the Twins will do.  They will let the Vets start.  They stated they wanted to rebuild Nolasco's value and Hughes was our best pitcher in 2014.  I think all the high paid vets will start the season as starters baring injury.

 

So I see the starting rotation as Nolasco, Hughes, Santana, Gibson and Milone.  A pen of Perkins, Jepson and May, likely Pressley, Fein and Tonkin, Maybe Darnell or maybe Duffey unless they want to keep him stretched out.

 

If they really went with who is the best in the rotation that list would change but I am fairly certain they will start with vets and make changes from there.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Although for the most part I like your starting pitching lineup I don't think that is what the Twins will do.  They will let the Vets start.  They stated they wanted to rebuild Nolasco's value and Hughes was our best pitcher in 2014.  I think all the high paid vets will start the season as starters baring injury.

 

So I see the starting rotation as Nolasco, Hughes, Santana, Gibson and Milone.  A pen of Perkins, Jepson and May, likely Pressley, Fein and Tonkin, Maybe Darnell or maybe Duffey unless they want to keep him stretched out.

 

If they really went with who is the best in the rotation that list would change but I am fairly certain they will start with vets and make changes from there.

 

There should be a "this is true, but I don't like it" button I can push for this post.....

[TheLeviathan]

Would've been nice to do more but let's also be honest - the Winter Meetings ain't what they used to be.  Lots of teams did nothing or very little.  

[d-mac]

 

You're totally right, of course. But then again, the Twins haven't had a whole lot of success developing any pitching the last ten years.

 

 However, I was just (trying) to point out that a lot of teams seem to be emulating the Royals Ultra-Lockdown Bullpen (RULBing, if you will,) but missing the fact that the Royals didn't build that bullpen by shopping for free agents.  I don't really know Herrera or Holland's history as starters, but Wade Davis was a converted starter, as was Hochevar, and Madson was a cheap, bargain-bin pickup.

 

Having said that, wouldn't some here agree that the Twins may be on the cusp of a wave of converted-starter relief help?  May, Rogers, Meyer, et al?  Do we really need to be paying Tony Sipp $7 Million dollars for his age 35 season?

 

May needs to be in the rotation. 

[Platoon]

Shocker. He's been doing the same thing every year for the past two decades, with poor results. I would say he's insane (by definition...see previous sentence), but it's the owners of the team. Winning baseball game has never been, and will never be, a priority. It's just gravy.

i honestly believe that TR is an excellent baseball mind that has been hamstrung by the Pohlads. It must be extremely frustrating. Maybe equally as frustrating as being a season ticket holder to this multi-decade clown show.

I can more or less agree with this, with these two exceptions. Ryan seems very slow to adjust to change, and there are non financial moves he makes and doesn't make that are consistent and puzzling. Mainly his distrust of younger players, and his over blown affection for safe middling vets.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Well I'd like to think that O'Rourke's measly 22 career MLB innings wouldn't be enough for the front office to give him the edge based on experience.

 

They might though.

I'm in the minority in wanting O'Rourke to start the season as the loogy. He got shaky at the end but overall struck out almost 40% of lefties. That is a really, really big number.

 

The Twins response is, "we are looking for lefties who can strike out both right handed and left handed hitters."

 

Then my response would be, ok, then go sign a high quality free agent.

[Winston Smith]

How often have the Twins brought up a relief prospect and he became a quality ML late inning pitcher? If you are serious about a playoff push do you go with unproven players, bullpen and in the outfield?

So what part of this team is better, at this point, than what we had last year?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

How often have the Twins brought up a relief prospect and he became a quality ML late inning pitcher?

If you are responding to the post immediately above yours, I would use O'Rourke as a 6-7 inning lefty specialist, and not pigeon hole Perkins into the "closer" role, but use him situationally like the end of last season. Yes they still need another high quality relief arm but at that point it doesn't matter to me what arm he throws with.

 

Additionally, Sean Gilmartin and Liam Hendriks turned into decent relief options for postseason teams last season. So it's not exactly ridiculous to ask if the solutions to our relief problems are already on our roster.