Article: Relief Role Playing

[sane09]

Also, for the record, Pat Dean is also a LH SP on the 40-man roster, and Logan Darnell was a longtime starter who returned to the role in August.

Neither Dean, nor Darnell were even listed in the top 100 Twins prospects in the "BA 2015 Prospect Handbook". I admit that doesn't guarantee anything, (I coached Matt Duffy in HS and Pony League) BUT it does IMPLY something.

[sane09]

 

Specifically, why you believe it is more important to have multiple LH starting pitchers rather than multiple LH relief pitchers?  

Never said that. How about ONE LH starting pitcher?. Milone has been removed from the rotation on this blog repeatedly.

[sane09]

 

 

"Overall, Twins bullpens over the past 4-5 years have turned in entirely predictable performances, so there's that.  I'd love to add an "unpredictable" reliever like Tony Sipp, Darren O'Day, etc. for a change"

 

I agree. If I were to argue against that, I would have to slap myself.

But I'd like to keep Rogers as a SP and pick up two FA LH relievers.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Never said that. How about ONE LH starting pitcher?. Milone has been removed from the rotation on this blog repeatedly.

Sorry, your post specifically said "Milone in MLB" so I didn't realize this was predicated on removing him from the rotation.

 

Although I probably would have used Rogers for MLB relief help down the stretch in 2015, I don't mind keeping him starting now if it means we get a real quality FA reliever like Sipp.  If we aim no higher than Cotts, though?  Then Rogers should get a look in relief from day 1.

[sane09]

Updated Summary of Twins Transactions and Rumors for Days 1 & 2

Wait for it..................................

[Dantes929]

I think comparing May's relief numbers against numbers as a starter is a little misleading.    His first six starts he had 1 quality start and an ERA of 5.4.  Over his next 9 starts he got his ERA down to 4.37 (despite a one out 5 earned runs disaster against the Brewers) and 6 of those starts were QS which is very good.    Throw away that clunker and his ERA in his last 8 starts was 2.88.     We know his nerves got the better of him in the majors in 2014 so it is not unreasonable he was still getting his feet wet to start 2015.     He has the tools and the pitches to be a very good if not great starter and I for one thought he should have been the LAST guy to go to the pen when Santana came back.  So what if he was also the guy best suited for relief.   I want this guy throwing 200 innings at 3.2 ERA rather than 60 innings of 2.8 ERA.    I think 2015 gave him the comfort and confidence to be the Twins top starter in 2016.   I've been wrong before but the biggest slam on him was his command and that has become his greatest strength to go along with some pretty good strengths in quality of several different pitches.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I think comparing May's relief numbers against numbers as a starter is a little misleading.    His first six starts he had 1 quality start and an ERA of 5.4.  Over his next 9 starts he got his ERA down to 4.37 (despite a one out 5 earned runs disaster against the Brewers) and 6 of those starts were QS which is very good.    Throw away that clunker and his ERA in his last 8 starts was 2.88.     We know his nerves got the better of him in the majors in 2014 so it is not unreasonable he was still getting his feet wet to start 2015.     He has the tools and the pitches to be a very good if not great starter and I for one thought he should have been the LAST guy to go to the pen when Santana came back.  So what if he was also the guy best suited for relief.   I want this guy throwing 200 innings at 3.2 ERA rather than 60 innings of 2.8 ERA.    I think 2015 gave him the comfort and confidence to be the Twins top starter in 2016.   I've been wrong before but the biggest slam on him was his command and that has become his greatest strength to go along with some pretty good strengths in quality of several different pitches.

 

Preach it.

[USAFChief]

I think comparing May's relief numbers against numbers as a starter is a little misleading.    His first six starts he had 1 quality start and an ERA of 5.4.  Over his next 9 starts he got his ERA down to 4.37 (despite a one out 5 earned runs disaster against the Brewers) and 6 of those starts were QS which is very good.    Throw away that clunker and his ERA in his last 8 starts was 2.88.     We know his nerves got the better of him in the majors in 2014 so it is not unreasonable he was still getting his feet wet to start 2015.     He has the tools and the pitches to be a very good if not great starter and I for one thought he should have been the LAST guy to go to the pen when Santana came back.  So what if he was also the guy best suited for relief.   I want this guy throwing 200 innings at 3.2 ERA rather than 60 innings of 2.8 ERA.    I think 2015 gave him the comfort and confidence to be the Twins top starter in 2016.   I've been wrong before but the biggest slam on him was his command and that has become his greatest strength to go along with some pretty good strengths in quality of several different pitches.

If we get to throw away the clunkers, take away his relief appearance July 19 at Oakland, when he was still "getting his feet wet" as a reliever, and the 3ER he gave up in 1 IP.

 

Lets also toss out the 0IP, 3ER outing at Houston Sep 6.

 

Now compare numbers. How's he look, starter vs reliever?

[Mike Sixel]

the point isn't "is he a better RP or SP".....the point is a number 2 or 3 starter is MUCH MORE valuable than a RP. Some of us think he's a legit MLB starting pitcher, and would rather have 200 innings of that, than 60 innings of RP from him.

[USAFChief]

the point isn't "is he a better RP or SP".....the point is a number 2 or 3 starter is MUCH MORE valuable than a RP. Some of us think he's a legit MLB starting pitcher, and would rather have 200 innings of that, than 60 innings of RP from him.

I disagree. 200 innings of meh isn't more valuable than 60 strategically placed innings of dominance.

 

I also believe if you're making a point, if you toss out the bad points for one side of the argument, you come to a more accurate conclusion if you also toss out the bad points of the other side as well.

 

Or don't toss out the bad at all. It's not like May's bad starts didnt happen, just because someone thinks they shouldn't have.

[Mike Sixel]

I didn't toss out any stats, and I don't think he'd be "meh" as a starter. That should be obvious since I said a 2/3.

 

I do agree, tossing out stats from bad performances, is usually a bad idea. Tossing out outliers is not. Showing progress over time is not.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I disagree. 200 innings of meh isn't more valuable than 60 strategically placed innings of dominance.

 

 

I think you can make the argument that while you have a cheap internal guy who could throw 200 innings, you might be better off using him for that and sign a free agent to throw the 60 innings of dominance. You could be O'Day and Madson for the price of Ervin Santana, for example.

 

Although we do have a lot of starters right now, and our bullpen could probably use May AND free agent reinforcements, so I don't mind it.

 

I do worry that May had back issues and limited availability after his move to the pen, though, which makes it harder to strategically place those innings.

[diehardtwinsfan]

My problem with May in the pen is that there's potential dominance as a starting pitcher that's being ignored. I agree that 60 innings of dominance is better than 200 innings of meh.  I don't think May's ceiling is anywhere close to 200 IP of Meh.  He was pitching well abover average as a starter prior to his demotion (including leading the rotation in WAR).  I don't think his ceiling should be so quickly discounted based on 25 major league starts.

[Dantes929]

 

If we get to throw away the clunkers, take away his relief appearance July 19 at Oakland, when he was still "getting his feet wet" as a reliever, and the 3ER he gave up in 1 IP.

Lets also toss out the 0IP, 3ER outing at Houston Sep 6.

Now compare numbers. How's he look, starter vs reliever?

Yeah, I knew I wouldn't get away with throwing out his clunker though I think it reasonable in this instance to remark on his last 9 starts vs his first 6.     If he was in his third or 4th season I wouldn't think it reasonable either.     I just don't think the 4.37 ERA reflected who he was as a starter.    I felt very good about our chances when he started.   At the time I thought he was one of the best and I just didn't want to see him yanked out of the rotation.      

I think I have made it clear that I am with spycake in that I don't think he is a meh starter so its more the premise that we disagree on than the conclusion.    

[sane09]

I disagree. 200 innings of meh isn't more valuable than 60 strategically placed innings of dominance.

I disagree with your disagreement.

200 innings from a SP is 200 innings of rest for a bullpen which has been coughing up blood after the ALL-Star-Game each season. If your starters all go seven innings per start (approx. 200 innings per season), your entire bullpen has a much better chance to each produce "60 strategically placed innings of dominance".

[HitInAPinch]

Goose Gossage didn't care about no sinkin' lefties.

Just find another Gossage!

[Dr. Evil]

IMHO we need two things to add to our bullpen in order to move May to the starting rotation and call it a net gain. If you move him to the rotation and replace him with one pen arm, we are right where we started overall as a staff. Leave him in the pen and we have the same krappy pen as last year. Replace him in the pen and add one reliever free agent and we have the same krappy pen as last year. Leave him in the pen and add a free agent pen arm and we are slightly better than last year.

 

Basically, regardless of where you put May, in order to have a significantly improved pen, we don't just need 1 arm, we need 2 or 3 for me to have a thread of optimism.  

 

Based on what we have as options for starters, I say leave him in the pen and sign 2 more guys. My bold suggestion.........we need a "flamethrower" and a "fireballer." They both need to be able to bring the heat, throw darts and drive tacks.

 

I'm sick of the circus music playing in my head every time the damn bullpen door opens!!! Five years of garbage and I've had my friggin fill! Get with the program Twins!