Defending Joe Mauer's value at $23m/Per

[Karl]

http://twinsdaily.com/entry.php?1454-Defending-Joe-Mauer-s-value-for-23M-per-year

 

It is super popular to rip Mauer and his contract, more specifically his "output/dollar spent ratio" but let's be honest - it is 100% not his fault the Twins are so bad this season. Yes, even when you factor in how his $23m/yr ties up so much payroll. My argument:

 

1) Mauer is the best offensive catcher in the AL. He is also paid the most.

 

2) Everyone wants to make the argument that he ties up $23m/year for his "pedestrian production". The guy is leading MLB in OBP. He is 4th in AL BA - he has an OPS of .865 and an OPS+ of 140.

 

3) This:

 

.326/.416/.449

.304./357/.500

.251/.346/.485

.293./356/.460

.276/.363/.416

.262/.328/.418

 

Here are the slash lines of the "All Star" catchers. The one nearest Joe is Yadier Molina who should be projected with a grain of salt because he sold his soul to the devil in exchange for a two year spike in OPS after SEVEN seasons of combined below .700 OPS.

 

At least Joe provides production at the top of his position by one metric for that $23m/per.

 

Here is another way the Twins are spending $24.25m/yr.

 

7W 14L 6.45ERA 152IP 194H 79K 109ER 66BB 1.71WHIP 4.67K/9

 

This ghastly pitching line is the combined totals for Pavano, Blackburn, Baker and Capps for 2012. At a combined cost of $24.25m in 2012.

 

It is really hard to complain about Mauer's output/dollar spent ratio when you view this output/dollar spent crap sandwich.

[diehardtwinsfan]

The Twins have misallocated funds, and there's no question about this. Mauer deserves some of the blame, as he's playing more like a 15M/year catcher right now than a 23M/year catcher. Then again, that money was getting spent regardless, as the Twins would have been run out of MN had they not locked up Mauer after getting a public stadium... The real question is whether Mauer would have gotten more on the open market... I suspect he would have, and I certainly don't blame him for maximizing his income. The question will be how he performs in the next few years. Even this year he doesn't seem 100%, but he has plenty more prime years on that deal.... Hopefully, next season looks like something a bit closer to 2009 where he at least is a lock for 10-20 home runs to go with the BA...

[DPJ]

We can all look back at 2009 being a complete fluke in the playing career of Joe Mauer. Is he worth the 180 million, probably not but the timing of the staduim, Joe finally hitting for power, the Yankees and Sox needing catcher and the Twins popularity at an all time high was the perfect storm for the Twins to get bent over.

[DPJ]

Quick second thought....can we compare Mauer's numbers to over catchers around the league now cause it's clear Joe Mauer isn't a fulltime catcher anymore. He's DH and play 1B to keep him in the lineup, but Mauer ain't a full-time catcher anymore.

[DaveW]

In all reality its very hard to justify spending 20+ million on anyone, but the market is what it is.

 

Check out the other top earners this year and determine if they are "living up to the total dollar value":

1. A-Rod- 30mm, Nope.

2. Vernon Wells- 24mm. nope

3.Johan Santana- 23mm. Nice season so far, but nope.

4.Mark Texiera 23mm. Nope. .808 OPS

5. Prince Fielder 23mm Nope. Mauer actually has a higher OPS+

6. CC Sabathia 23mm- maybe but signs point to no. 3.45 ERA

Adrian Gonzalez. nope. 745 OPS

Cliff Lee. Nope. 3.98 ERA

Miguel Cabrera. Yes.

Carl Crawford. LOL nope.

Verlander. Yes.

Halladay. Nope. 3.98 ERA

Ryan Howard. Nope.

 

By comparison Mauer's contract actually looks pretty decent.

[diehardtwinsfan]

this is true... most catchers play a bit over 100 games or so... He won't hit 90 at his current pace. I have no issues getting him reps at 1st/DH to get his bat in the game more, but that value drops signficantly when he isn't behind hte plate. Hopefully, with a full offseason where he isn't recovering from various ailments we can see something between this season and 2009...

[JB_Iowa]

The Twins have misallocated funds, and there's no question about this. Mauer deserves some of the blame, as he's playing more like a 15M/year catcher right now than a 23M/year catcher.

But if he can keep up producing like a $15-!6 million/year catcher, I'm okay with it.

 

Mauer is not, and never was, my favorite player. But at the time the contract was signed, in my mind I allocated about $7-$8 million/year to "goodwill" (a/k/a increased marketing and sales revenues attributable to Mauer) and the remainder to salary.

 

And, even with the debacle of last season (and I really see his behavior last year as a debacle as much as his production), he has seemingly done most of what he could do to get back in the good graces of the fans. He is doing those things that many people griped about -- playing on Sundays, playing in a high percentage of games, playing catcher regularly. (The one thing I would have liked to see to "make up" for last season was a significant charitable contribution to something like the Twins Community Fund but that's just a personal preference for me).

 

So his production this year is satisfactory to me (and is actually exceeding what I said would be okay with me). If he should manage to inject some more excitement by making a real run at the batting title again, that would be all the better.

[DaveW]

Quick second thought....can we compare Mauer's numbers to over catchers around the league now cause it's clear Joe Mauer isn't a fulltime catcher anymore. He's DH and play 1B to keep him in the lineup, but Mauer ain't a full-time catcher anymore.

What exactly are you trying to say/ask?

[DPJ]

In all reality its very hard to justify spending 20+ million on anyone, but the market is what it is.

 

Check out the other top earners this year and determine if they are "living up to the total dollar value":

1. A-Rod- 30mm, Nope.

2. Vernon Wells- 24mm. nope

3.Johan Santana- 23mm. Nice season so far, but nope.

4.Mark Texiera 23mm. Nope. .808 OPS

5. Prince Fielder 23mm Nope. Mauer actually has a higher OPS+

6. CC Sabathia 23mm- maybe but signs point to no. 3.45 ERA

Adrian Gonzalez. nope. 745 OPS

Cliff Lee. Nope. 3.98 ERA

Miguel Cabrera. Yes.

Carl Crawford. LOL nope.

Verlander. Yes.

Halladay. Nope. 3.98 ERA

Ryan Howard. Nope.

 

By comparison Mauer's contract actually looks pretty decent.

 

How do you justify a contract cause of the stupidity of other GM's?

 

NTM there's a couple "yes" in there you're missing, but looking at nothing but OPS or ERA is how you grade things. How's that Blackburn contract working out...still waiting for that 4 ERA and 11-12 wins a year.

[Winston Smith]

#1 he gets paid about twice what any other top catcher gets paid. #2 he has only started 42% of the Twins games behind the plate. So it's hard to compare him with full time catchers. #3 Players that get paid north of 20 million are run producers driving in 100-125 runs a year not 80. Is he a very good singles hitter, yes. A very good obp guy yes but those guys aren't worth 23 million. An 80 rbi, number 3 hitter can't make 25% of the payroll no matter where he plays part time, imo.

[DPJ]

What exactly are you trying to say/ask?

It's pretty simple, we need to look at Joe Mauer's numbers differently cause he's not a full-time catcher anymore. I have no issues him playing DH and 1B, but Joe Mauer shouldnt' be looked at as the gold standard for catchers, if he's not a fulltime catcher anymore.

[Brock Beauchamp]

In all reality its very hard to justify spending 20+ million on anyone, but the market is what it is.

 

Check out the other top earners this year and determine if they are "living up to the total dollar value":

1. A-Rod- 30mm, Nope.

2. Vernon Wells- 24mm. nope

3.Johan Santana- 23mm. Nice season so far, but nope.

4.Mark Texiera 23mm. Nope. .808 OPS

5. Prince Fielder 23mm Nope. Mauer actually has a higher OPS+

6. CC Sabathia 23mm- maybe but signs point to no. 3.45 ERA

Adrian Gonzalez. nope. 745 OPS

Cliff Lee. Nope. 3.98 ERA

Miguel Cabrera. Yes.

Carl Crawford. LOL nope.

Verlander. Yes.

Halladay. Nope. 3.98 ERA

Ryan Howard. Nope.

 

By comparison Mauer's contract actually looks pretty decent.

As a whole, Twins fans should take a long hard look at those names and then re-consider how badly they want a Greinke or Hamels. The Yankees, BoSox, Dodgers, Phillies, and Cubs can swallow those awful contracts and compete. The Twins cannot. As a mid-market team, you can't drop $100m+ on a guy and then get 2 good seasons out of him. It can kill a franchise, especially one that already has Joe Mauer on the team (not a knock on Mauer at all, just a statement that he eats a huge chunk of payroll and limits financial flexibility).

[Karl]

What exactly are you trying to say/ask?

Probably an equation like: If Mauer plays 60% at C, 25% at DH and 15% at 1B - can we extrapolate his worth accordingly?

 

The answer is yes:

 

Take a average output of the top Catchers, an average output of the top 1B's and an average output of the top DH's then weight them in a 60%, 25%, 15% fashion.

 

This would be like calculating the ERA of 3 pitchers if one threw 60% of the innings, one threw 25% of the innings and one 15%.

 

The math can be done - I'm just to lazy to do it.

[DaveW]

How do you justify a contract cause of the stupidity of other GM's?

 

NTM there's a couple "yes" in there you're missing, but looking at nothing but OPS or ERA is how you grade things. How's that Blackburn contract working out...still waiting for that 4 ERA and 11-12 wins a year.

Please point out the couple "yes" that I am missing.

 

So suddenly OPS isn't a good way to determine how a player is hitting? Or am I not including the fact that Prince and Texiera play the easiest position in baseball?

 

For pitchers should I use wins instead of ERA? I'm confused.

[DaveW]

As a whole, Twins fans should take a long hard look at those names and then re-consider how badly they want a Greinke or Hamels. The Yankees, BoSox, Dodgers, Phillies, and Cubs can swallow those awful contracts and compete. The Twins cannot. As a mid-market team, you can't drop $100m+ on a guy and then get 2 good seasons out of him. It can kill a franchise, especially one that already has Joe Mauer on the team (not a knock on Mauer at all, just a statement that he eats a huge chunk of payroll and limits financial flexibility).

Here are the other players on the top 25 paid list (top 15 were above)

 

Felix Hernandez: Yes

Carlos Lee: bahahahahha

Soriano: no

Zambrano: no

Zito: no

Hunter: no

Lincecum: pass

Jason Bay: no

Ichiro: production wise prob not.

Beckett: no

Peavy: this year yes.

[DPJ]

In all reality its very hard to justify spending 20+ million on anyone, but the market is what it is.

 

Check out the other top earners this year and determine if they are "living up to the total dollar value":

1. A-Rod- 30mm, Nope.

2. Vernon Wells- 24mm. nope

3.Johan Santana- 23mm. Nice season so far, but nope.

4.Mark Texiera 23mm. Nope. .808 OPS

5. Prince Fielder 23mm Nope. Mauer actually has a higher OPS+

6. CC Sabathia 23mm- maybe but signs point to no. 3.45 ERA

Adrian Gonzalez. nope. 745 OPS

Cliff Lee. Nope. 3.98 ERA

Miguel Cabrera. Yes.

Carl Crawford. LOL nope.

Verlander. Yes.

Halladay. Nope. 3.98 ERA

Ryan Howard. Nope.

 

By comparison Mauer's contract actually looks pretty decent.

Arod-No

Wells-No

Johan-No

Teix-No

Prince-Were taking about a half-season sample size. Bit early IMO to proclaim no.

CC-YES YES YES and YES one more time for good measure.

Gonz-No

Lee-Yes, he's still pitching well while being saddled highier then normal BABIP

Miggy-Yes

Crawford-NO

Verlander-YES

Halladay-Being hurt doesn't help, but if I still lean toward yes cause even though his yearly salary is high, he's been balls for years and is on a 3 year deal.

Howard-No

[JB_Iowa]

How do you justify a contract cause of the stupidity of other GM's?

Because THAT is the marketplace. Decisions aren't made in a vacuum. There are a lot of varying pressures that are taken into account by GMs when they offer this type of contract. The contracts aren't offered just on the basis of statisical performance or or projected statisical performance -- they also consider marketing, leadership, contributions to the community and other factors.

 

So it is entirely appropriate to look at how other large contracts have worked out.

[drivlikejehu]

Probably an equation like: If Mauer plays 60% at C, 25% at DH and 15% at 1B - can we extrapolate his worth accordingly?

 

The answer is yes:

 

Take a average output of the top Catchers, an average output of the top 1B's and an average output of the top DH's then weight them in a 60%, 25%, 15% fashion.

 

This would be like calculating the ERA of 3 pitchers if one threw 60% of the innings, one threw 25% of the innings and one 15%.

 

The math can be done - I'm just to lazy to do it.

Why would you need to do it? Fangraphs and Baseball Reference already do this in their WAR calculations. That's why he actually has a negative positional adjustment for the first time in his career.

 

Mauer is at $13 million right now, so he's roughly on track to 'earn' his salary on the field (putting aside things like merchandise).

[DPJ]

Because THAT is the marketplace. Decisions aren't made in a vacuum. There are a lot of varying pressures that are taken into account by GMs when they offer this type of contract. The contracts aren't offered just on the basis of statisical performance or or projected statisical performance -- they also consider marketing, leadership, contributions to the community and other factors.

 

So it is entirely appropriate to look at how other large contracts have worked out.

Except Joe market was on the free market to get that price driven up. I understand the other factors minus leadership that can go into a contract extention for a player.

 

But Joe's contract doesn't look any better cause of what other stupid GM's have done.

[Boom Boom]

But if he can keep up producing like a $15-!6 million/year catcher, I'm okay with it.

 

Mauer is not, and never was, my favorite player. But at the time the contract was signed, in my mind I allocated about $7-$8 million/year to "goodwill" (a/k/a increased marketing and sales revenues attributable to Mauer) and the remainder to salary.

And, even with the debacle of last season (and I really see his behavior last year as a debacle as much as his production), he has seemingly done most of what he could do to get back in the good graces of the fans. He is doing those things that many people griped about -- playing on Sundays, playing in a high percentage of games, playing catcher regularly. (The one thing I would have liked to see to "make up" for last season was a significant charitable contribution to something like the Twins Community Fund but that's just a personal preference for me).

 

So his production this year is satisfactory to me (and is actually exceeding what I said would be okay with me). If he should manage to inject some more excitement by making a real run at the batting title again, that would be all the better.

I've heard this said before. The Twins aren't actually paying Mauer $23 million to just play baseball. A portion of that salary is "goodwill" or "marketing" to the fans and taxpayers who helped build Target Field.

 

So if that's the case, Mauer's salary should show up as $15-16 million of payroll, and there should be a few million payroll dollars left to sign better pitchers than the Jason Marquises of the world. Marketing should be separate from payroll.

[Riverbrian]

I think paying $3.50 a gallon for gas is too much. Yet... If I want Gas. That's the price I have to pay. My other option is to go without. There was a time when I filled up my tank and my car wouldn't start the next morning. Some bad gas had ruined my fuel injectors. Still the price was $3.50 a gallon.

 

Caveat Emptor!!!

 

Joes market value was around 23 million at the time of the contract. The other option was to do without.

 

Any thought that the Twins have control over market value for their players or other teams players doesn't give full consideration to the other 29 teams with pocketbooks.

[JB_Iowa]

I've heard this said before. The Twins aren't actually paying Mauer $23 million to just play baseball. A portion of that salary is "goodwill" or "marketing" to the fans and taxpayers who helped build Target Field.

 

So if that's the case, Mauer's salary should show up as $15-16 million of payroll, and there should be a few million payroll dollars left to sign better pitchers than the Jason Marquises of the world. Marketing should be separate from payroll.

At the time Mauer's contract was signed, I posted elsewhere that I wished that they would structure it so that a portion was not included in the % attributable to players' salaries. It would make it a lot more palatable for most of the public. And would actually be more consistent with what I think they were doing when they inked the Mauer contract.

 

But is is also really just a bookkeeping matter because the % allocated to player salaries is wholly within the club's decision-making anyway so there wouldn't necessarily be additional money available to sign other players.

[DPJ]

Any thought that the Twins have control over market value for their players or other teams players doesn't give full consideration to the other 29 teams with pocketbooks.

You do have control over the market when you're signing a player to an exntention. Either you accept what the player wants or you reject it and say these are the terms we're willing to do.

 

I'm not arguing what Mauer signed for, like I said earlier it was a perfect storm for Joe to bleed the Twins for every penny. But just cause other GM's have giving out stupid money for players doesn't justify Mauer's contract.

[Mike Sixel]

If it is goodwill, then it doesn't count to the 52% number?

 

comparing the worst contracts the Twins have with Mauer's priceless strawman work. Should I cherry pick all the great players making $1MM or less, and point out how many wins you could have with those contracts? Or, find the 5 lowest paid starting pitchers that are good, and point out how you spending $6MM on Span is a bad idea relative to that? Making bad decisions with lots of players (aka, your list) is actually better than making a huge, bad decision with one player. Which is the point of a lot of people on this thread, actually.

 

What is most popular on this site, is starting threads about how Mauer is worth it, and everyone that says otherwise is wrong, followed by pages of people saying he's not worth it, and others saying he is, and no one changing their mind.

[DaveW]

It should be noted that its highly likely that Mauer could have caught many more games in the 1st half, however they have a back up catcher who has a good enough bat that warrants being in the lineup every day. So basically you can C Mauer or DH Mauer with Doumit as the DH or C and you still have the same team on the field more or less. You lose a bit defensively, but you gain a bit in Mauer's bat.

 

Also in his last 40 games (18 at DH and 1st Base) Mauer has put up a .980 OPS. That sort of bat plays anywhere on the field.

[Riverbrian]

You do have control over the market when you're signing a player to an exntention. Either you accept what the player wants or you reject it and say these are the terms we're willing to do.

 

I'm not arguing what Mauer signed for, like I said earlier it was a perfect storm for Joe to bleed the Twins for every penny. But just cause other GM's have giving out stupid money for players doesn't justify Mauer's contract.

I completely agree that it was a perfect storm. When you consider everything... What a George Clooney type storm it was.

 

I don't necessarily agree that Joe bled the Twins. It's how the game is played.

 

I agree that the The Twins have the option of rejecting any agents contract requests... Like I said... The other option was to do without.

 

I don't necessarily agree that other GMs giving out stupid money doesnt justify Mauers contract.

 

Each stupid contract signed gets the market value to where it is. Putting a team like the Twins in the situation of signing Mauer to stupid money or going without.

 

All in all... I'm glad Mauer is here and I'm glad the contract was signed. Regardless of his production... His contract has always signified to me that the Twins will compete with all of baseball for a player or two.

 

I was heartened by that... Still am.

[JB_Iowa]

What is most popular on this site, is starting threads about how Mauer is worth it, and everyone that says otherwise is wrong, followed by pages of people saying he's not worth it, and others saying he is, and no one changing their mind.

On that we can agree. I almost didn't comment on this thread because for the most part I just don't get it. I NEVER understood the deification of Joe Mauer. And I still don't understand the villification of Joe Mauer.

 

His contract is what it is. To the best of my knowledge, he didn't do anything dishonest to achieve that contract. Is there something that you all think he CAN and should be doing NOW that would increase his value?

 

It seems to me that he has been doing what is asked of him -- playing most games at whatever position the manager prefers. I haven't seen him dogging it. I haven't seen or heard him say anything that would indicate that he is giving it less than his best effort.

 

The one thing that I can see that he could do is waive his no trade clause (and maybe he's already told the Twins he'd do so in the right circumstances).

 

I realize that this thread was started by someone who was trying to defend Mauer's worth. Heaven knows I didn't expect to come on here and defend Mauer. I just wish we could have a moratorium on this whole subject.

[DPJ]

All in all... I'm glad Mauer is here and I'm glad the contract was signed. Regardless of his production... His contract has always signified to me that the Twins will compete with all of baseball for a player or two.

 

I was heartened by that... Still am.

 

He got the 4th largest contract in baseball history, how the hell did he not get every penny?

 

The market wasn't set by other GM's cause at the end of the day the Twins either agree this is what we wanna pay Joe (joining the stupid GM's) or you say no. It's that simple, if Joe wasn't a 180 cause that's what Teix or AGoz got good for him, god bless him. But that doesn't mean the Twins have to say yes.

[Winston Smith]

"I realize that this thread was started by someone who was trying to defend Mauer's worth. Heaven knows I didn't expect to come on here and defend Mauer. I just wish we could have a moratorium on this whole subject."

 

That will only happen when they resign Punto.

 

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[jm3319]

If it is goodwill, then it doesn't count to the 52% number?

 

comparing the worst contracts the Twins have with Mauer's priceless strawman work. Should I cherry pick all the great players making $1MM or less, and point out how many wins you could have with those contracts? Or, find the 5 lowest paid starting pitchers that are good, and point out how you spending $6MM on Span is a bad idea relative to that? Making bad decisions with lots of players (aka, your list) is actually better than making a huge, bad decision with one player. Which is the point of a lot of people on this thread, actually.

What is most popular on this site, is starting threads about how Mauer is worth it, and everyone that says otherwise is wrong, followed by pages of people saying he's not worth it, and others saying he is, and no one changing their mind.

 

While I completely agree you can cherry pick players/contracts to make any point, why do you think making multiple bad decisions and getting little to no value from those players is better than over paying one guy who's the best at his position?

 

Here is another way the Twins are spending $24.25m/yr.

 

7W 14L 6.45ERA 152IP 194H 79K 109ER 66BB 1.71WHIP 4.67K/9

 

This ghastly pitching line is the combined totals for Pavano, Blackburn, Baker and Capps for 2012. At a combined cost of $24.25m in 2012.

 

This list gets us 3 pitchers that make up our atrocious rotation and one inconsistent reliever. For the same price we get one guy who leads the league in OB% and might get his 4th batting title (the only catcher ever with 3). A team like the Twins can swallow the extra 8-10M that Mauer is overpaid a lot easier than it can swallow 24M on terrible pitching. It CANNOT afford to waste 32-34M on both. All Mauer's contract does it put more pressure to not screw up other contracts, but they can still compete with his 23M if they choose wisely.